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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Ah yes, Ian Parsley, the failed party swapping public/independent school toff politician who is now in PR. Trust him all the way to the twittersphere

    OK. If you're happy to ignore the embarrassing state of the chief negotiator of Brexit because you don't like the person reporting the views, here's a few more from this evening.











    David Davis is doing a terrible job at agreeing the UK's exit from the EU. But tonight his performance has slipped from inadequate to dangerously misinformed.
  • It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl
  • It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
  • Southbank said:

    Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.

    Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.

    Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.
    Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.

    here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.

    I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...



    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561

    Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.
    Yes, if those migration numbers are correct then .....it seems to have gone awfully quiet on here.
  • Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
  • Southbank said:

    Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.

    Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.

    Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.
    Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.

    here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.

    I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...



    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561

    Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.
    Well, that’s interesting. I don’t look into this so had assumed that all those on here previously saying numbers were reducing were right.

    Will be intriguing to see how these figures progress.
  • stonemuse said:

    Southbank said:

    Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.

    Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.

    Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.
    Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.

    here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.

    I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...



    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561

    Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.
    Well, that’s interesting. I don’t look into this so had assumed that all those on here previously saying numbers were reducing were right.

    Will be intriguing to see how these figures progress.
    I'm sure they thought they were right as well.

    I think we should put up huge signs around our ports that read "Welcome to Little England" :wink:
  • Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
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  • Southbank said:

    Oh dear another accidentally leaked document to the Guardian to show how the EU are entering negotiations with an open mind.
    It’s actually called having a coherent plan and negotiating stance.

    Something May and Davis should take note of.

    Our plan should be based on a recognition that,as per this briefing, the EU will offer us nothing worth paying for. They are suckering us into making a commitment to pay them. Once we have, they will offer us the Canada deal and tell us to lump it.
    We should walk away now, offer no money but 2 years initial tariff free trade from our side and all EU citizens already here can stay and bring their immediate families if they want. If the EU wants to reciprocate they can, or we will take our business elsewhere and impose tariffs on their goods.
    We are led by weak Remainer politicians who do not want to leave the EU and who are being taken for a ride by the EU. No party speaks for the 52%, a massive democratic deficit which needs to change.
    The most successful outcomes in negotiations invariably come when both sides want the same things and actively collaborate to ensure that everyone gets what they want. That was never going to happen with Brexit because both sides wanted different things. The best we could have hoped for was a compromise situation where both sides recognised that the others wanted something else and engaged in a little give and take to ensure a mutually acceptable (though never entirely satisfactory) outcome. Where the negotiations have been operating is around the win/lose model, both sides fighting for what they want regardless of the others (well, the EU has been doing that - the UK negotiators aren't sophisticated enough even for this level). What you're calling for though is a lose/lose negotiation model. Sod what's good for them, sod what's good for us. Lets just pile on in the most crass thoughtless way possible. Casualties don't matter as long as we can say 'job done'. It is the politics of the Twilight Zone. Utter, utter madness.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
  • It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Maybe you missed Lord Buckethead's wise words then, "it will be a shitshow"
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    No chance he will reply with his own opinions. It's outside his remit :wink: :



    Go on BBW, surprise us...
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
    I'll do my best not to disappoint you.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    No chance he will reply with his own opinions. It's outside his remit :wink: :

    Nice try :smile: You should know by now that I don't play your games.

    Also, I believe you don't understand what the term 'remit' means. It would require an official assignment of an area of activity to me for something to fall under my 'remit'.

    Now, had you said 'It's not in his nature', then I may have chuckled, tittered and even guffawed along with you at your acerbic wit and my obvious flaws.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    No chance he will reply with his own opinions. It's outside his remit :wink: :

    Nice try :smile: You should know by now that I don't play your games.

    Also, I believe you don't understand what the term 'remit' means. It would require an official assignment of an area of activity to me for something to fall under my 'remit'.

    Now, had you said 'It's not in his nature', then I may have chuckled, tittered and even guffawed along with you at your acerbic wit and my obvious flaws.
    You are a master in the use of sarcasm, BBW - the highest form of wit (when used correctly) in my opinion.
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  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.
    I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
    It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
    There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
    I'll do my best not to disappoint you.
    That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere. However, correct me if I am wrong but you have carefully avoided providing any opinion of your own which helps us understand your own view on Brexit. At the same time you have frequently posted oblique criticisms of others posts. Again correct me if I am wrong but all those posts have been directed at Remain supporting posters.

    To be clear you are welcome here to express your opinions and debate with us. That's the point. We are still waiting...

  • bobmunro said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    No chance he will reply with his own opinions. It's outside his remit :wink: :

    Nice try :smile: You should know by now that I don't play your games.

    Also, I believe you don't understand what the term 'remit' means. It would require an official assignment of an area of activity to me for something to fall under my 'remit'.

    Now, had you said 'It's not in his nature', then I may have chuckled, tittered and even guffawed along with you at your acerbic wit and my obvious flaws.
    You are a master in the use of sarcasm, BBW - the highest form of wit (when used correctly) in my opinion.
    bob, I try not to take things too seriously and am glad that you pick up on this :smile:

    I believe it's lost on some at times. I hold no grudges against those that aren't as quick on the uptake as your good self.

    Prague likes to tickle my testes from time to time and, to be honest, I enjoy the attention (wasn't loved as a child, you see).
  • seth plum said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.
    I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
    It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
    There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
    I think you may have missed, unlike @bobmunro, the obvious sarcasm in my post.

    Easily done as I have been, at times, peddled as being the editor in chief at Breitbart News on here :wink:
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
    I'll do my best not to disappoint you.
    That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere. However, correct me if I am wrong but you have carefully avoided providing any opinion of your own which helps us understand your own view on Brexit. At the same time you have frequently posted oblique criticisms of others posts. Again correct me if I am wrong but all those posts have been directed at Remain supporting posters.

    To be clear you are welcome here to express your opinions and debate with us. That's the point. We are still waiting...

    Providing a contrary opinion when being critical of others is not compulsory - especially on a football forum. In reality this thread as with others and pretty much every thread on any social media platform that relates to the EU referendum only exists to polarise views - I have yet to see any remainer switch to brexit, or vice versa, as a result of some rational debate. So pretty pointless really.

    From memory I believe BBW has stated he voted remain - but he is best placed to correct me on that if I remember wrongly.
  • edited November 2017

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
    I'll do my best not to disappoint you.
    That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere.

    Things have taken a dramatic, and a times nasty, turn for the worst in certain threads.

    At least bob gets me.

    You can try and paint me in to a corner all you like. I have the tools to remove all forms of paint, whether that be water, cooking oil and soap or even alcohol. I think you'll need a better brush :wink:
  • seth plum said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.
    I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
    It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
    There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
    I think you may have missed, unlike @bobmunro, the obvious sarcasm in my post.

    Easily done as I have been, at times, peddled as being the editor in chief at Breitbart News on here :wink:
    ...now about that word 'obvious' and it's miserable companion 'obviously'...
  • Stig said:

    Southbank said:

    Oh dear another accidentally leaked document to the Guardian to show how the EU are entering negotiations with an open mind.
    It’s actually called having a coherent plan and negotiating stance.

    Something May and Davis should take note of.

    Our plan should be based on a recognition that,as per this briefing, the EU will offer us nothing worth paying for. They are suckering us into making a commitment to pay them. Once we have, they will offer us the Canada deal and tell us to lump it.
    We should walk away now, offer no money but 2 years initial tariff free trade from our side and all EU citizens already here can stay and bring their immediate families if they want. If the EU wants to reciprocate they can, or we will take our business elsewhere and impose tariffs on their goods.
    We are led by weak Remainer politicians who do not want to leave the EU and who are being taken for a ride by the EU. No party speaks for the 52%, a massive democratic deficit which needs to change.
    The most successful outcomes in negotiations invariably come when both sides want the same things and actively collaborate to ensure that everyone gets what they want. That was never going to happen with Brexit because both sides wanted different things. The best we could have hoped for was a compromise situation where both sides recognised that the others wanted something else and engaged in a little give and take to ensure a mutually acceptable (though never entirely satisfactory) outcome. Where the negotiations have been operating is around the win/lose model, both sides fighting for what they want regardless of the others (well, the EU has been doing that - the UK negotiators aren't sophisticated enough even for this level). What you're calling for though is a lose/lose negotiation model. Sod what's good for them, sod what's good for us. Lets just pile on in the most crass thoughtless way possible. Casualties don't matter as long as we can say 'job done'. It is the politics of the Twilight Zone. Utter, utter madness.
    On the contrary. The UK has 2 strengths in this negotiation (and a lot of weaknesses). The first is that Germany and France do not want to have to explain to their people why they have to fork out 50b Euro to Rumania and Greece to fill the budget hole. That means we should hold back on agreeing any figure or make any commitment until we have got commitments from the other side. The reason that Germany and France are taking a hard line on the money is for that reason. Once they have that out of the way they will be under far less pressure to concede anything. Making commitments on the money now is throwing away our best bargaining counter. But that is wjhat the UK Government looks as if it is about to do.

    The second strength is that many European businesses want to carry on trading with the UK, and we want to carry on trading with them. We should put the ball in their court by offering a two year period during which free movement of goods will continue into the UK. At the end of this tariffs will be imposed if the EU does not reciprocate. The EU will be answerable to EU businesses which will suffer if they do not reciprocate.

    Overall we are in a very weak position due to the relative economic strength of the EU against that of the UK. At the moment we are playing our cards badly because our leaders do not really want to leave. All of the political parties bar the DUP are led by Remainers. So what else can we expect but this inept and craven approach.
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.
    I'll do my best not to disappoint you.
    That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere.

    Things have taken a dramatic, and a times nasty, turn for the worst in certain threads.

    At least bob gets me.

    You can try and paint me in to a corner all you like. I have the tools to remove all forms of paint, whether that be water, cooking oil and soap or even alcohol. I think you'll need a better brush :wink:
    I am not interested in "painting" you anywhere. I don't "paint" say, Dippenhall or Stonemuse anywhere. I know exactly where they are coming from, and appreciate their frequent challenge to how I see the issue. You are clearly an intelligent bloke. I am therefore interested in what you actually think on this issue. You are not of course obliged to state how you voted (although unlike @bobmunro I recall you gave a highly equivocal statement on that at the time). I would say with confidence that since then your sarcasm has been directed entirely at Remain opinions on here. That suggests you disagree with them. But why not just come out and say so, and more importantly say why? Surely that is the purpose of threads like this?

    Anyway, whatever. I am going to concentrate on these ONS figures, because I am still baffled at how they seem to contradict earlier figures, and it's too "quiet" for @Valiantphil . I like this fact based stuff, you see.



  • seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.

    #rotfl

    Go on...
    I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.
    Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?
    Yeah, lots.
    Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?
    You're always so encouraging.

    I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.

    My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.

    I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.

    Right on, brother.
    I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.
    I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
    It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
    There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
    I think you may have missed, unlike @bobmunro, the obvious sarcasm in my post.

    Easily done as I have been, at times, peddled as being the editor in chief at Breitbart News on here :wink:
    ...now about that word 'obvious' and it's miserable companion 'obviously'...
    I agree. They are just as infuriating as 'the fact of the matter is', 'what we should focus on', 'it seems that what you are saying' etc.

    Lets start a campaign to eradicate these ill-defined vagaries (not sure if I've used 'vagaries' in the right context here but I'll stick with it).
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!