I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
"I used to work in Dublin regularly". Without even the merest hint of irony.
The 17.4M who voted Leave back in 2016 is a huge number of voters. By placing the 17.4M in today's context we should recognise that the total electorate is up to 49M from 46M and that the latest polls are showing:
Remain has been growing at 1% per month since Chequers came out - now polling over 50%. Even if say 20% remain supporters didn't come out on the day that still represents 20M voters. Leave might still poll 17M but a reduced % of an enlarged electorate - we have discussed the reasons why before
There's a 60:40 lead for a second referendum or 46% polled with 24% don't know and 30% against. That 46% represents 22 million voters
The Independent indicates a 50:50 split on the Norway option with roughly 40% for or against - or 19M each way.
The poll published in the Independent suggests that if there were to be a second referendum in 2019 then Leave might just about secure another 17M votes as the electorate has grown but the real headline is that Remain fired up by a campaign that knows it has a point to prove could secure 20 million votes.
That is the way to win a case in a democracy. Give the reasons why a proposal won't work, allow the protagonists to run with it for a while, and when they fail to bring anything useful to the table, have another discussion and another vote. And despite the identity politics involved, those leading the campaigns need to focus on winning swing voters as well as getting the base out.
There really is no need to disrespect the 17.4M, especially those who have died. The country simply needed to examine the options in front of us and then agree to take a second look at the possibilities. Ideally the nation will mature as a result and there will be less tolerance of outright lies and misrepresentation. But that is an ideal and the reality is that the nationalists will pull every trick in the book to win the day.
That should not be a cause for concern since the electorate, the politicians and the media should have learnt from 2016 and the period since. The best deal on offer is the one we currently enjoy. One hopes that the political process allows for this to be voted on in 2019 before it's too late.
Well reasoned analysis ... but there are still many of us who had well-reasoned arguments to leave.
I agree and there's a discussion to be had even if so many seek to close down debate. And we don't need to beat each other up to a metaphorical pulp. Similarly the country is split down the middle on the Norway Leave option in the polls so that too needs an inteligent debate if we end up leaving next March.
The main point about the demographics, aside from people dying(!) is that Leave made a huge emotional appeal to nostalgia and memories of a Britain that perhaps never existed. This older generation were born either during the war or in the ten years after and the UK was a very different country back then. A million miles from that of our kids today.
My point posted above about polls and millions of voters is to state that it's not that Leave voters were wrong or stoopid or whatever... just that a new poll with tangible Leave/ Remain outcomes in 2019 would yield a very different result to 2016 and that more and more people believe that this is the optimum solution to a political crisis. One might add that one million old leave voters dying perhaps only explains 20-25% of the swing we can expect on this week's polls? The rest will be young voters attaining the franchise and people changing their minds based on the facts emerging.
So we discuss, we have another vote and the UK continues the Brexit process, or not. Nobody dies!
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it....they're a small country wanting to be part of a big organisation. The UK have outgrown said organisation. Just like Acrington would like to join the Premier League when Arsenal want to be leaving it.
As for the younger generation rubbish. I'll remember that titbit when the next GE comes along....should I get my 12 yr old to vote instead of me as it affects him more ??
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
"I used to work in Dublin regularly". Without even the merest hint of irony.
People are allowed to work in other countries, with, or without The Eu.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it....they're a small country wanting to be part of a big organisation. The UK have outgrown said organisation. Just like Acrington would like to join the Premier League when Arsenal want to be leaving it. membership of the EEC/EC/EU has transformed the Irish economy and has helped dramatically in the process of modernising society more widely...
As for the younger generation rubbish. I'll remember that titbit when the next GE comes along....should I get my 12 yr old to vote instead of me as it affects him more ??
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it.... Utter piffle.
PWR, the point will no doubt have been made somewhere at sometime -
That might change. The ROI has, in the past received more than its contributed to the EU budget. Going forward, whether the UK is in or out, those handouts will disappear. If the ROI or some of the other smaller economies have to start being a net payer then membership of the EU might not look like such a good deal. Unless say the French start chipping in even more...oh,hang on...
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it.... Utter piffle.
PWR, the point will no doubt have been made somewhere at sometime -
That might change. The ROI has, in the past received more than its contributed to the EU budget. Going forward, whether the UK is in or out, those handouts will disappear. If the ROI or some of the other smaller economies have to start being a net payer then membership of the EU might not look like such a good deal. Unless say the French start chipping in even more...oh,hang on...
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
"I used to work in Dublin regularly". Without even the merest hint of irony.
Not sure what you mean. I’ve mentioned before that I have worked more than half my working life overseas, primarily Frankfurt and Singapore, but basically all over.
The 17.4M who voted Leave back in 2016 is a huge number of voters. By placing the 17.4M in today's context we should recognise that the total electorate is up to 49M from 46M and that the latest polls are showing:
Remain has been growing at 1% per month since Chequers came out - now polling over 50%. Even if say 20% remain supporters didn't come out on the day that still represents 20M voters. Leave might still poll 17M but a reduced % of an enlarged electorate - we have discussed the reasons why before
There's a 60:40 lead for a second referendum or 46% polled with 24% don't know and 30% against. That 46% represents 22 million voters
The Independent indicates a 50:50 split on the Norway option with roughly 40% for or against - or 19M each way.
The poll published in the Independent suggests that if there were to be a second referendum in 2019 then Leave might just about secure another 17M votes as the electorate has grown but the real headline is that Remain fired up by a campaign that knows it has a point to prove could secure 20 million votes.
That is the way to win a case in a democracy. Give the reasons why a proposal won't work, allow the protagonists to run with it for a while, and when they fail to bring anything useful to the table, have another discussion and another vote. And despite the identity politics involved, those leading the campaigns need to focus on winning swing voters as well as getting the base out.
There really is no need to disrespect the 17.4M, especially those who have died. The country simply needed to examine the options in front of us and then agree to take a second look at the possibilities. Ideally the nation will mature as a result and there will be less tolerance of outright lies and misrepresentation. But that is an ideal and the reality is that the nationalists will pull every trick in the book to win the day.
That should not be a cause for concern since the electorate, the politicians and the media should have learnt from 2016 and the period since. The best deal on offer is the one we currently enjoy. One hopes that the political process allows for this to be voted on in 2019 before it's too late.
Well reasoned analysis ... but there are still many of us who had well-reasoned arguments to leave.
"Had", I have absolutely no doubts about. It's"have" that I'm struggling with.
Well as I voted in the past, the correct word is ‘had’.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it.... Utter piffle.
PWR, the point will no doubt have been made somewhere at sometime -
That might change. The ROI has, in the past received more than its contributed to the EU budget. Going forward, whether the UK is in or out, those handouts will disappear. If the ROI or some of the other smaller economies have to start being a net payer then membership of the EU might not look like such a good deal. Unless say the French start chipping in even more...oh,hang on...
Is Ireland still a net recipient?
Not any more, which is one of the reasons that Ray Bassett and other loons suggesting some kind of "Irexit" give for their stance.
Were I to wish to really annoy some of those taking, shall we say, a "more traditional" view of Ireland and its place vis-a-vis the wider World, I might highlight the fact that, following the Brexit vote, Ireland now has observer status in the Francophonie, but I don't, so I won't.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it.... Utter piffle.
PWR, the point will no doubt have been made somewhere at sometime -
That might change. The ROI has, in the past received more than its contributed to the EU budget. Going forward, whether the UK is in or out, those handouts will disappear. If the ROI or some of the other smaller economies have to start being a net payer then membership of the EU might not look like such a good deal. Unless say the French start chipping in even more...oh,hang on...
Is Ireland still a net recipient?
Not any more, which is one of the reasons that Ray Bassett and other loons suggesting some kind of "Irexit" give for their stance.
Were I to wish to really annoy some of those taking, shall we say, a "more traditional" view of Ireland and its place vis-a-vis the wider World, I might highlight the fact that, following the Brexit vote, Ireland now has observer status in the Francophonie, but I don'r, so I won't.
Cheers, I thought it was the case that Ireland was now a net contributor. I think some people still think Ireland is in the 1980’s whereas in reality, in many respects, they have overtaken us economically.
There must be some magical age where it is believed you become a brexit voter then I assume?
On the basis of this implied assumption that those dying (of old age) are brexit voters and those getting to voting age are remainers , so the latter are increasing in number, but then surely there must also be those who were remainers but have now reached this magical age where they switch to a become a brexit voter?
There must be some magical age where it is believed you become a brexit voter then I assume?
On the basis of this implied assumption that those dying (of old age) are brexit voters and those getting to voting age are remainers , so the latter are increasing in number, but then surely there must also be those who were remainers but have now reached this magical age where they switch to a become a brexit voter?
Apparently, according to many on here, at a certain age many of us turn into morons and racists.
No it’s just a statistical reality. More people voted to leave in the over sixties group than in younger age groups. That’s a fact. By definition more in that group will have popped their clogs
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
2 ppints to make on this....
Of course ROI want to be a part of it....they're a small country wanting to be part of a big organisation. The UK have outgrown said organisation. Just like Acrington would like to join the Premier League when Arsenal want to be leaving it.
As for the younger generation rubbish. I'll remember that titbit when the next GE comes along....should I get my 12 yr old to vote instead of me as it affects him more ??
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
"I used to work in Dublin regularly". Without even the merest hint of irony.
People are allowed to work in other countries, with, or without The Eu.
The elite are allowed to work in other countries, with, or without The Eu.
There must be some magical age where it is believed you become a brexit voter then I assume?
On the basis of this implied assumption that those dying (of old age) are brexit voters and those getting to voting age are remainers , so the latter are increasing in number, but then surely there must also be those who were remainers but have now reached this magical age where they switch to a become a brexit voter?
Probably after you leave uni, stop worrying if you're a boy, girl or whatever, pay tax and enter the real world.
@CharltonMadrid I think it was yourself who was querying whether there was a real risk of civil disorder in the event Leavers don't get the Brexit they want (not that they are even agreed over what this is).
This piece of human filth turned up for the pro-Brexit march over the weekend...
...claiming it's what Teresa May deserves as a traitor. This, a couple of years after one of our MP's was murdered for her views on Brexit.
I'm not saying ALL Leavers are of this view by any means but there are SOME out there with such a warped view there is a risk of some disorder.
I’ve just arrived in my hotel in Dublin. Taxi driver from the airport was a decent chat as I guess you’d expect.
Dublin is booming but the rest of Ireland less so. However from where he sits, he still cannot believe we either a) were offered a referendum or b ) votes to leave the EU
His main point is that we do not live in a world of the 1940s-1960s. The world has moved on and being a big player in the EU is something that Ireland dreams of and yet the UK has decided to try and chuck that away.
We also agreed that it is not those who bot s for it but the generations that come after that will have to live with the effects.
I used to work in Dublin regularly. Had some wonderful chats with taxi drivers on the way into the city. Loved the fact that they all knew about Charlton because of Keily and Kinsella.
"I used to work in Dublin regularly". Without even the merest hint of irony.
Not sure what you mean. I’ve mentioned before that I have worked more than half my working life overseas, primarily Frankfurt and Singapore, but basically all over.
OK. I'll spell it out for you. You've had an opportunity to benefit from freedom of movement within the EU and you are fiercely defending a position that terminates those rights for other people.
It comes across as hypocritical, privileged or - some people might even think - spiteful to deny younger people the rights you've enjoyed and exploited in the past.
I've worked in a few countries in the EU. In France, Germany, Finland, the Netherlands and Spain. I cannot imagine how I would ever come to the conclusion that the right thing to do is to deny the same level of opportunity to others.
@CharltonMadrid I think it was yourself who was querying whether there was a real risk of civil disorder in the event Leavers don't get the Brexit they want (not that they are even agreed over what this is).
This piece of human filth turned up for the pro-Brexit march over the weekend...
...claiming it's what Teresa May deserves as a traitor. This, a couple of years after one of our MP's was murdered for her views on Brexit.
I'm not saying ALL Leavers are of this view by any means but there are SOME out there with such a warped view there is a risk of some disorder.
He only wants his ‘Ingerland’ back. You know how it used to be. Nothing like a bit of Capital Punishment to help keep a bit of order.
The ‘patriots’ didn’t turn up for the proposed spin off march in Liverpool after getting chased out a few weeks back.
This talk of disorder on the streets if Brexit gets stopped is nonsense. More than 700,000 people took to the streets recently to protest against Brexit. Yesterday, barely 1,000 people turned up at a widely advertised pro-Brexit March in London and a pro Brexit march in Liverpool was cancelled because no one turned up!
You have to wonder how 'legal' or 'constitutional' May's deal would be, if Parliament is sovereign how could it be bound to any international treaty without a way of Parliament unilaterally leaving that treaty.
You to wonder how 'legal' or 'constitutional' May's deal would be, if Parliament is sovereign how could it be bound to any international treaty without a way of Parliament unilaterally leaving that treaty.
I’m sure someone previously mentioned some ancient law which said that it is illegal to allow all or part of our country to be ruled by the laws of a foreign power which I’m pretty sure would render the backstop illegal anyways.
It’s kind of all moot as there’s no chance of her deal passing tomorrow, if it even gets to a vote in the first place.
Comments
The main point about the demographics, aside from people dying(!) is that Leave made a huge emotional appeal to nostalgia and memories of a Britain that perhaps never existed. This older generation were born either during the war or in the ten years after and the UK was a very different country back then. A million miles from that of our kids today.
My point posted above about polls and millions of voters is to state that it's not that Leave voters were wrong or stoopid or whatever... just that a new poll with tangible Leave/ Remain outcomes in 2019 would yield a very different result to 2016 and that more and more people believe that this is the optimum solution to a political crisis. One might add that one million old leave voters dying perhaps only explains 20-25% of the swing we can expect on this week's polls? The rest will be young voters attaining the franchise and people changing their minds based on the facts emerging.
So we discuss, we have another vote and the UK continues the Brexit process, or not. Nobody dies!
Of course ROI want to be a part of it....they're a small country wanting to be part of a big organisation. The UK have outgrown said organisation. Just like Acrington would like to join the Premier League when Arsenal want to be leaving it.
As for the younger generation rubbish. I'll remember that titbit when the next GE comes along....should I get my 12 yr old to vote instead of me as it affects him more ??
Utter piffle.
That might change. The ROI has, in the past received more than its contributed to the EU budget. Going forward, whether the UK is in or out, those handouts will disappear. If the ROI or some of the other smaller economies have to start being a net payer then membership of the EU might not look like such a good deal. Unless say the French start chipping in even more...oh,hang on...
Tuesday - reject May’s deal
Wednesday - revoke Article 50
Thursday - start coming up with a sensible plan for Brexit
Were I to wish to really annoy some of those taking, shall we say, a "more traditional" view of Ireland and its place vis-a-vis the wider World, I might highlight the fact that, following the Brexit vote, Ireland now has observer status in the Francophonie, but I don't, so I won't.
As an aside, here's something from Eamon Mallie (a journalist with whom many of us will have become familiar over the Troubles), in the Irish Times: https://irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/some-unionists-are-thinking-the-unthinkable-about-living-in-a-united-ireland-1.3725241.
This piece of human filth turned up for the pro-Brexit march over the weekend...
...claiming it's what Teresa May deserves as a traitor. This, a couple of years after one of our MP's was murdered for her views on Brexit.
I'm not saying ALL Leavers are of this view by any means but there are SOME out there with such a warped view there is a risk of some disorder.
It comes across as hypocritical, privileged or - some people might even think - spiteful to deny younger people the rights you've enjoyed and exploited in the past.
I've worked in a few countries in the EU. In France, Germany, Finland, the Netherlands and Spain. I cannot imagine how I would ever come to the conclusion that the right thing to do is to deny the same level of opportunity to others.
The ‘patriots’ didn’t turn up for the proposed spin off march in Liverpool after getting chased out a few weeks back.
It’s kind of all moot as there’s no chance of her deal passing tomorrow, if it even gets to a vote in the first place.