I actually think the Grieve amendment will fail, there will be enough Brexiteers who will worry that it would create a very real possibility of a second referendum (or Norway) to back the government to victory.
The government. A Tory government is in such disarray and so far from doing right by the people of this country be they remain or leave that by any standards of decency and responsibility they should call an election. We have now effectively no government in the U.K. A Prime Minister who cannot rely even on the support within her own ranks and certain to be defeated on the 11th in the Commons on her and her governments plans. A plan nobody is willing to support. For god sake go now.
The government. A Tory government is in such disarray and so far from doing right by the people of this country be they remain or leave that by any standards of decency and responsibility they should call an election. We have now effectively no government in the U.K. A Prime Minister who cannot rely even on the support within her own ranks and certain to be defeated on the 11th in the Commons on her and her governments plans. A plan nobody is willing to support. For god sake go now.
I think she should stay, she’s Remain’s greatest hope!
The irony is that British 'sovereignty' is a key pillar (perhaps the key pillar) in the Brexiteers desire to to leave the EU. And yet we see the British Government in contempt of Parliament, in contempt of the public, and most importantly in contempt of its duty of care to look after UK citizens. If there was ever a better indicator of the complete and utter bankruptcy of the Brexiteer's arguments I don't know what it is.
The irony is that British 'sovereignty' is a key pillar (perhaps the key pillar) in the Brexiteers desire to to leave the EU. And yet we see the British Government in contempt of Parliament, in contempt of the public, and most importantly in contempt of its duty of care to look after UK citizens. If there was ever a better indicator of the complete and utter bankruptcy of the Brexiteer's arguments I don't know what it is.
Agreed. Funny seeing clueless people moaning about democracy dying when it is the government who for the past 2 and a half years have been roadblocking all attempts to give the process any kind of democratic Parliamentary scrutiny.
i'd honestly love to see you explain how that's the case.
Ok . The government give us a choice. Leave or remain. The British people vote to leave. But the government do everything they can to stop it happening. Night night.
It's been a very good day for democracy for we no longer live under the threat of a default "No Deal" when the WA is defeated. Thanks to the Art' 50 ruling, the House has control over revoking Article 50 if required.
Might be wrong on this but without this threat both the ERG and May are nowhere?
The DUP have voted against the Government so as to reveal the full legal opinion since much of that must surely relate to the back stop and the Irish border. They have exercised their right to represent their constituency and perspective. But this doesn't really change the calculation for next Tuesday and the aftermath - the DUP are not interested in blocking Brexit, just preventing a border evolving in the Irish Sea.
The Art.50 ruling changes the angles for the 11th considerably for May can no longer bluff that it's her WA[y] or No Deal way! The default actually becomes No Brexit for that is the emergency backstop which might now be applied by the House if no solution is found by say end February.
Today's defeats demonstrate that 10 defections by the DUP are sufficient to defeat the government. And there are at least 20 Tory Remainers who favour a Norway style outcome, rather than this xenophobic focus on freedom of movement. The trick is to ensure that the people have a vote on the WA vs No Brexit. Surely the electorate cannot vote on the absence of something, so "No Deal" needs to be binned, not least because of the damage to the UK economy.
It's been a very good day for democracy for we no longer live under the threat of a default "No Deal" when the WA is defeated. Thanks to the Art' 50 ruling, the House has control over revoking Article 50 if required.
Might be wrong on this but without this threat both the ERG and May are nowhere?
The DUP have voted against the Government so as to reveal the full legal opinion since much of that must surely relate to the back stop and the Irish border. They have exercised their right to represent their constituency and perspective. But this doesn't really change the calculation for next Tuesday and the aftermath - the DUP are not interested in blocking Brexit, just preventing a border evolving in the Irish Sea.
The Art.50 ruling changes the angles for the 11th considerably for May can no longer bluff that it's her WA[y] or No Deal way! The default actually becomes No Brexit for that is the emergency backstop which might now be applied by the House if no solution is found by say end February.
Today's defeats demonstrate that 10 defections by the DUP are sufficient to defeat the government. And there are at least 20 Tory Remainers who favour a Norway style outcome, rather than this xenophobic focus on freedom of movement. The trick is to ensure that the people have a vote on the WA vs No Brexit. Surely the electorate cannot vote on the absence of something, so "No Deal" needs to be binned, not least because of the damage to the UK economy.
There wasn’t actually an Article 50 ruling today. I think a senior judge provided his opinion, which is normally followed by the court, but the final ruling is yet to be delivered.
I agree though that the prospect of the hopefully imminent Article 50 ruling from the (much maligned) ECJ and the Dominic Grieve amendment create an interesting combination.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
No mate, I cannot accept that you have even tried to answer my question. But for some weird reason, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll keep going. Let's say that Brexit will be a sign that the UK has, in your book, regained its sovereignty.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
How will kicking them in the teeth by overturning the Referendum result make people feel do you think? More belief that politics can work for them or less do you think? More likely to become more politically active or more demoralised do you think? More belief that you can make a difference by voting or less do you think?
I have now asked you twice how you would feel had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM had decided to take us out of the EU anyway. Your silence speaks for itself.
I would back another referendum if, subsequent to June 23rd I found out that the country was clearly going to be poorer in many ways (not just financially) as a result of remaining. That I had been lied to, and that many other people I had met had actually believed the lies and voted to remain as a result. That the remain campaign had actually broken electoral rules. If I found out that a great many of the people telling those lies had positioned themselves to be better of financially as a result of a vote to remain, knowing that the majority would be worse off, I would be angry at them and myself for not seeing through the bluff.
Yes - If the roles were reversed, I would want to see things played out properly.
Good quote from Isaac Asimov that rings even more true today than when he said it:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Our sopposedly balanced broadcast media has been infected with this, the Asimov quote, big time. Especially the BBC. The broadcast media have an important role in our democracy but they have badly let us down over Brexit. They have repeatedly, day after day, allowed outrageous falsehoods to be spouted by Brexiteers without any push back or basic fact checking.
Which is why I think none of the major Brexiteers or high ranking Govt ministers engage with C4 news, they seem to be the only ones pushing back and now they’re avoided.
I'm not a BBC apologist, but for me they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Just a week or so ago one of the BBC fact checkers was accused by a former cabinet minister (Peter Lilley I think) of debating opinion rather than fact checking.
The answer is to use as many sources as possible to attempt to identify some semblance of truth, but regrettably very few people do and base their opinions on their usual sources - be that the BBC, Channel 4, Sky News (sic), or print media e.g. Mail versus Guardian. The truth, as in most cases, is somewhere in the middle but polarisation of views is now the norm.
I don’t disagree with you there Bob, but I do find it fascinating that May and her ministers run scared of C4 and are allowed to get away with it.
I have always said there are decent Tories and I have certainly found in all this a small number that I admire for their courage and desire to put the country first. They may have had terrible treatment and accusations from the press, but I would actually be pleased if they win back their seats at the next election whenever it is.
i'd honestly love to see you explain how that's the case.
Ok . The government give us a choice. Leave or remain. The British people vote to leave. But the government do everything they can to stop it happening. Night night.
Not sure how that is relevant to the government failing to disclose what they had been told to disclose by parliament and being found to be in contempt of parliament?
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
No mate, I cannot accept that you have even tried to answer my question. But for some weird reason, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll keep going. Let's say that Brexit will be a sign that the UK has, in your book, regained its sovereignty.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
How will kicking them in the teeth by overturning the Referendum result make people feel do you think? More belief that politics can work for them or less do you think? More likely to become more politically active or more demoralised do you think? More belief that you can make a difference by voting or less do you think?
I have now asked you twice how you would feel had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM had decided to take us out of the EU anyway. Your silence speaks for itself.
I would back another referendum if, subsequent to June 23rd I found out that the country was clearly going to be poorer in many ways (not just financially) as a result of remaining. That I had been lied to, and that many other people I had met had actually believed the lies and voted to remain as a result. That the remain campaign had actually broken electoral rules. If I found out that a great many of the people telling those lies had positioned themselves to be better of financially as a result of a vote to remain, knowing that the majority would be worse off, I would be angry at them and myself for not seeing through the bluff.
Yes - If the roles were reversed, I would want to see things played out properly.
Good quote from Isaac Asimov that rings even more true today than when he said it:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Our sopposedly balanced broadcast media has been infected with this, the Asimov quote, big time. Especially the BBC. The broadcast media have an important role in our democracy but they have badly let us down over Brexit. They have repeatedly, day after day, allowed outrageous falsehoods to be spouted by Brexiteers without any push back or basic fact checking.
Which is why I think none of the major Brexiteers or high ranking Govt ministers engage with C4 news, they seem to be the only ones pushing back and now they’re avoided.
I'm not a BBC apologist, but for me they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Just a week or so ago one of the BBC fact checkers was accused by a former cabinet minister (Peter Lilley I think) of debating opinion rather than fact checking.
The answer is to use as many sources as possible to attempt to identify some semblance of truth, but regrettably very few people do and base their opinions on their usual sources - be that the BBC, Channel 4, Sky News (sic), or print media e.g. Mail versus Guardian. The truth, as in most cases, is somewhere in the middle but polarisation of views is now the norm.
I don’t disagree with you there Bob, but I do find it fascinating that May and her ministers run scared of C4 and are allowed to get away with it.
C4 News gave Tim (Wetherspoon) Martin pretty free rein this evening to spout his Brexit propaganda on a tour of his pubs. Not a lot of balance provided just Martin echoing pro Brexit tabloid sound bites. Who needs Farage with this guy around!
The problem is, everybody knows what the legal advice is. It is just that publishing it will basically show that the EU will decide when the backstop ends and it being in writing makes it more powerful.
The problem is, everybody knows what the legal advice is. It is just that publishing it will basically show that the EU will decide when the backstop ends and it being in writing makes it more powerful.
Precisely, which makes @blackpool72 comment a bit.. unique
Comments
Exciting times if it passes though!
For god sake go now.
P.S. added a little word so precious to our Brexiteer friends.
The government give us a choice.
Leave or remain.
The British people vote to leave.
But the government do everything they can to stop it happening.
Night night.
"
Might be wrong on this but without this threat both the ERG and May are nowhere?
The DUP have voted against the Government so as to reveal the full legal opinion since much of that must surely relate to the back stop and the Irish border. They have exercised their right to represent their constituency and perspective. But this doesn't really change the calculation for next Tuesday and the aftermath - the DUP are not interested in blocking Brexit, just preventing a border evolving in the Irish Sea.
The Art.50 ruling changes the angles for the 11th considerably for May can no longer bluff that it's her WA[y] or No Deal way! The default actually becomes No Brexit for that is the emergency backstop which might now be applied by the House if no solution is found by say end February.
Today's defeats demonstrate that 10 defections by the DUP are sufficient to defeat the government. And there are at least 20 Tory Remainers who favour a Norway style outcome, rather than this xenophobic focus on freedom of movement. The trick is to ensure that the people have a vote on the WA vs No Brexit. Surely the electorate cannot vote on the absence of something, so "No Deal" needs to be binned, not least because of the damage to the UK economy.
I agree though that the prospect of the hopefully imminent Article 50 ruling from the (much maligned) ECJ and the Dominic Grieve amendment create an interesting combination.
How would that affect leaving the EU?