@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Probably also drinks in one of Tim ‘Wetherspoon’ Martin’s establishments. Places are fully of anti E.U. propaganda.
This type of ignorance of the facts will be as big an issue in any further referendum as it it was in 2016. Gove alluded to it on Marr last Sunday. Murdoch and co will home in on this wilful ignorance with a vengeance. “They’re calling us thick let’s show them” will be the mantra.
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
I might benefit, but I did not know that in advance of the vote. Like everybody else, for me the future of the economy is unpredictable and always has been.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Oh look, the "EU have taken over Italy" lie again.
More fake news from the Guardian
You do realise you can't just link to a random article regarding Italy with zero context and think it backs up your batshit conspiracy theories, right?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
I might benefit, but I did not know that in advance of the vote. Like everybody else, for me the future of the economy is unpredictable and always has been.
You know it now though, so whilst it may not be the reason why you voted for it, it may be enough reason not to change your mind or even to take seriously the many reasons why it would be a bad thing. Not that it matters, people hold political opinions for all sorts of personal reasons. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As I said yesterday, one of my reasons for not wanting Brexit is that it will blow my retirement plans out of the water.
As for the future of the economy, you're right to an extent that there will always be new things that come along that make it difficult to predict exact figures with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that you can't model two or more different scenarios and say with confidence that one scenario will will turn out better or worse than the other. That is what our economists have been doing and their forecasts all predict that we will be worse with Brexit, and worse still under a no-deal Brexit. There are no serious models or forecasts that predict a better economy under Brexit, and there is absolutely no reason why there would be. To use the fact that there will always be a certain level of uncertainty as to the exact numbers and pretend that that means we cannot predict the relative merits of competing systems is economically, politically and morally bankrupt. Indeed to do so to try and persuade others in the context of national upheaval and decision-making deadlock is profoundly undemocratic.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
Oh look, the "EU have taken over Italy" lie again.
More fake news from the Guardian
You do realise you can't just link to a random article regarding Italy with zero context and think it backs up your batshit conspiracy theories, right?
In fairness to Southbank, I don't think he does realise that.
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
I might benefit, but I did not know that in advance of the vote. Like everybody else, for me the future of the economy is unpredictable and always has been.
You know it now though, so whilst it may not be the reason why you voted for it, it may be enough reason not to change your mind or even to take seriously the many reasons why it would be a bad thing. Not that it matters, people hold political opinions for all sorts of personal reasons. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As I said yesterday, one of my reasons for not wanting Brexit is that it will blow my retirement plans out of the water.
As for the future of the economy, you're right to an extent that there will always be new things that come along that make it difficult to predict exact figures with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that you can't model two or more different scenarios and say with confidence that one scenario will will turn out better or worse than the other. That is what our economists have been doing and their forecasts all predict that we will be worse with Brexit, and worse still under a no-deal Brexit. There are no serious models or forecasts that predict a better economy under Brexit, and there is absolutely no reason why there would be. To use the fact that there will always be a certain level of uncertainty as to the exact numbers and pretend that that means we cannot predict the relative merits of competing systems is economically, politically and morally bankrupt. Indeed to do so to try and persuade others in the context of national upheaval and decision-making deadlock is profoundly undemocratic.
When you say 'serious models', you mean not by Brexiters right?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
I might benefit, but I did not know that in advance of the vote. Like everybody else, for me the future of the economy is unpredictable and always has been.
You know it now though, so whilst it may not be the reason why you voted for it, it may be enough reason not to change your mind or even to take seriously the many reasons why it would be a bad thing. Not that it matters, people hold political opinions for all sorts of personal reasons. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As I said yesterday, one of my reasons for not wanting Brexit is that it will blow my retirement plans out of the water.
As for the future of the economy, you're right to an extent that there will always be new things that come along that make it difficult to predict exact figures with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that you can't model two or more different scenarios and say with confidence that one scenario will will turn out better or worse than the other. That is what our economists have been doing and their forecasts all predict that we will be worse with Brexit, and worse still under a no-deal Brexit. There are no serious models or forecasts that predict a better economy under Brexit, and there is absolutely no reason why there would be. To use the fact that there will always be a certain level of uncertainty as to the exact numbers and pretend that that means we cannot predict the relative merits of competing systems is economically, politically and morally bankrupt. Indeed to do so to try and persuade others in the context of national upheaval and decision-making deadlock is profoundly undemocratic.
When you say 'serious models', you mean not by Brexiters right?
Some of us have read the Minford model which is the only Leave elite one, and it suggest dropping all tariffs, and is open this would cause the end of farming and manufacturing in the UK. It also suggests that all regulatory controls are dropped, so the rules that stop vCJD getting into the food chain, or the regulations that have stopped plastic plates that release arsenic when microwaved to be dropped, and make the UK a free for all. The benefits would head mainly to the richest in society, with the hope that some crumbs would go from the top table.
Dont think I have posted on this thread, me and missus both voted Brexit - we were lied to, and didnt have the sense to see it - would love to have a chance to reverse our vote.
Watching it unravel and seeing how our UK politicians/ media blamed all the ills of our country on the EU, then, the realisation, all was within their power to resolve - sickening.
Also, as on old git who lived in London through the 70/80's - the Irish border issue is, in my mind, unresolvable ('eh Seth).
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
@Southbank I can accept your position but it just happens that I don't agree with it since. But no, there's no point in talking about this law, border and money soundbite
I suspect what people find hard to accept is that 17.4M voted for Leave and that they lost to what they consider were poor arguments and a disingenuous prospectus which contradicted itself.
So some have a pop at you whilst others look at what's next:
Nail on head. We have a ticking time bomb damaging our nation which needs to be defused. Much to the annoyance of Brextremists the opposition to Brexit is getting organised and gaining traction.
Latest polls suggest 60:40 in favour of a second referendum. Surely it's undemocratic to resist the will of 20M+ voters?!
And the proposed WA has support of less than 25% of the electorate because it's rubbish! Not very democratic if the final deal would lose hands down in a vote.
So we await the decision of the House on the 11th and if the WA is defeated heavily then we will see a very swift and unpredictable set of actions and motions. Or as Sir Keir Starmer puts it, Labour will have to peddle through the gears rapidly. Perhaps the our Sovereign Parliament will "take back control" and the anti-democratic extremists will scream foul - We might look forward to that?!
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
@PragueAddick in fairness to @Southbank IIRC he said recently his firm had picked up a contract that would otherwise have gone elsewhere in the EU so he might be personally benefiting financially. I'm guessing he doesn't want to say it as it makes him look like an "I'm Alright Jack", screw everyone else type of merchant. And it might open up the debate as to why they couldn't get the contract in the first place and the wider benefits to cross border trade.
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
I might benefit, but I did not know that in advance of the vote. Like everybody else, for me the future of the economy is unpredictable and always has been.
You know it now though, so whilst it may not be the reason why you voted for it, it may be enough reason not to change your mind or even to take seriously the many reasons why it would be a bad thing. Not that it matters, people hold political opinions for all sorts of personal reasons. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As I said yesterday, one of my reasons for not wanting Brexit is that it will blow my retirement plans out of the water.
As for the future of the economy, you're right to an extent that there will always be new things that come along that make it difficult to predict exact figures with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that you can't model two or more different scenarios and say with confidence that one scenario will will turn out better or worse than the other. That is what our economists have been doing and their forecasts all predict that we will be worse with Brexit, and worse still under a no-deal Brexit. There are no serious models or forecasts that predict a better economy under Brexit, and there is absolutely no reason why there would be. To use the fact that there will always be a certain level of uncertainty as to the exact numbers and pretend that that means we cannot predict the relative merits of competing systems is economically, politically and morally bankrupt. Indeed to do so to try and persuade others in the context of national upheaval and decision-making deadlock is profoundly undemocratic.
When you say 'serious models', you mean not by Brexiters right?
When I say serious models I mean those produced by respected economists for credible unbiased organisations: Treasury, major banks and financial institutions, major International organisations, universities specialising in economics that sort of thing. What I don't mean is some bloke with a copy of Sloman and an alt-right blog.
Whatever models you've got, you post them here and we'll have a look at their methodology and the credentials of their producers. Either that or we'll stick our fingers in our ears and go "wibble, wobble, wibble, it might take fifty years to see the benefits" ;-)
Dont think I have posted on this thread, me and missus both voted Brexit - we were lied to, and didnt have the sense to see it - would love to have a chance to reverse our vote.
Watching it unravel and seeing how our UK politicians/ media blamed all the ills of our country on the EU, then, the realisation, all was within their power to resolve - sickening.
Also, as on old git who lived in London through the 70/80's - the Irish border issue is, in my mind, unresolvable ('eh Seth).
You are part of a growing number of voters who realised Vote Leave was a total sham. I hear more and more stories like this everyday and hopefully we can get a democratic vote to reverse the error of 2016, considering those who would vote to cancel Brexit now considerably outnumber those who would continue with JRM and Putin's plan.
Southbank - I, like many others, am really struggling to see your logic for your reasoning for wanting Brexit. If it is solely as an exercise in democracy then what is the problem with giving the public a chance to ratify or reject the deal? An informed public, able to pass or deny something which will have a huge impact on them seems like a very good example of democracy, much more so than a vote which took place with unclear explanations as to its ramifications.
No, I really do not like the protectionist EU, a stinking mass of corporate corruption, anti-democratic and oblivious to local sovereignty. I believe the nation state is the main protector of my democratic rights.
I think it would be interesting for you to actually live in another EU country to see how they cope with the EU bring 'oblivious to local sovereignty'. It is impressive in a way that you keep going with this idea irrespective of others pointing out how silly it is, but to be honest its a very strange argument and comes across as just something that people repeat from tabloids.
That doesn't really support the point though. It just seems quite strange how other countries don't obsess over this idea of 'sovereignty' and accept that if they are in a group of nations there will be certain expectations to being part of it, not that it means they have somehow lost all autonomy.
It must be something unique to the UK, being an island nation, though Scotland and Ireland seem to not have this fixation. Probably more likely to be the drip drip media narrative that gets into people's minds and stops them thinking about things that really matter, giving a free pass to the UK government on matters that really should be discussed.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
@Southbank I can accept your position but it just happens that I don't agree with it since. But no, there's no point in talking about this law, border and money soundbite
I suspect what people find hard to accept is that 17.4M voted for Leave and that they lost to what they consider were poor arguments and a disingenuous prospectus which contradicted itself.
So some have a pop at you whilst others look at what's next:
Nail on head. We have a ticking time bomb damaging our nation which needs to be defused. Much to the annoyance of Brextremists the opposition to Brexit is getting organised and gaining traction.
Latest polls suggest 60:40 in favour of a second referendum. Surely it's undemocratic to resist the will of 20M+ voters?!
And the proposed WA has support of less than 25% of the electorate because it's rubbish! Not very democratic if the final deal would lose hands down in a vote.
So we await the decision of the House on the 11th and if the WA is defeated heavily then we will see a very swift and unpredictable set of actions and motions. Or as Sir Keir Starmer puts it, Labour will have to peddle through the gears rapidly. Perhaps the our Sovereign Parliament will "take back control" and the anti-democratic extremists will scream foul - We might look forward to that?!
Funnily enough 60:40 in favour of a second referendum is far more than a mandate given to hold the first one. Therefore it would be profoundly undemocratic to deny us a second vote despite there being a greater mandate than the first.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
@Southbank I can accept your position but it just happens that I don't agree with it since. But no, there's no point in talking about this law, border and money soundbite
I suspect what people find hard to accept is that 17.4M voted for Leave and that they lost to what they consider were poor arguments and a disingenuous prospectus which contradicted itself.
So some have a pop at you whilst others look at what's next:
Nail on head. We have a ticking time bomb damaging our nation which needs to be defused. Much to the annoyance of Brextremists the opposition to Brexit is getting organised and gaining traction.
Latest polls suggest 60:40 in favour of a second referendum. Surely it's undemocratic to resist the will of 20M+ voters?!
And the proposed WA has support of less than 25% of the electorate because it's rubbish! Not very democratic if the final deal would lose hands down in a vote.
So we await the decision of the House on the 11th and if the WA is defeated heavily then we will see a very swift and unpredictable set of actions and motions. Or as Sir Keir Starmer puts it, Labour will have to peddle through the gears rapidly. Perhaps the our Sovereign Parliament will "take back control" and the anti-democratic extremists will scream foul - We might look forward to that?!
Funnily enough 60:40 in favour of a second referendum is far more than a mandate given to hold the first one. Therefore it would be profoundly undemocratic to deny us a second vote despite there being a greater mandate than the first.
"Take back control" I like that - it has a ring to it. Will send that idea to the "people's vote" campaign.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
No mate, I cannot accept that you have even tried to answer my question. But for some weird reason, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll keep going. Let's say that Brexit will be a sign that the UK has, in your book, regained its sovereignty.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
Dont think I have posted on this thread, me and missus both voted Brexit - we were lied to, and didnt have the sense to see it - would love to have a chance to reverse our vote.
Watching it unravel and seeing how our UK politicians/ media blamed all the ills of our country on the EU, then, the realisation, all was within their power to resolve - sickening.
Also, as on old git who lived in London through the 70/80's - the Irish border issue is, in my mind, unresolvable ('eh Seth).
We are of a similar age, and in addition I am of an Irish background. I wonder if anybody under about 40 has a deep appreciation regarding the 'troubles'. For you and I, even in London (if that is where you are) the terror war of those times was real and tangible. The rights and wrongs have been examined endlessly, although Terrorist Violence is always wrong, but the Good Friday Agreement was worked on and teased out of what seemed the most intractable situation, and since it came into force people in the UK and Ireland have very largely enjoyed comparative peace. The issue is actually resolvable by either the risk of ending the common travel area, or by somehow leaving/not leaving the EU in a way that means no controls on that particular border. Neither resolution is anywhere in sight, and I have been banging on about it long enough, and the powers that be have had two and a half years to come up with a solution, but are no closer now than they were the day after the referendum.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
No mate, I cannot accept that you have even tried to answer my question. But for some weird reason, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll keep going. Let's say that Brexit will be a sign that the UK has, in your book, regained its sovereignty.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
The constituency Southbank most cares about, and often repeated by him, are the white working class. This apparent grouping will be no better off, in fact likely worse off, but they will be told by their soverign government that decisions affecting their lives will now be exclusively taken by a British elite rather than a european elite - and that they should feel proud that their misfortune is at the sole judgement of their parliamentary elite - but heaven forfend they be called working class.
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.
So I assume you are OK with Remainers continuing the struggle, despite many setbacks, to have a second referendum on EU membership?
I would also assume that you are therefore in agreement with members of parliament from all sides wanting a meaningful vote on any deal that is made?
You should struggle for what you think is right of course. But having a second referendum before the first one is enacted is profoundly undemocratic.
Can you imagine had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM announced we were leaving anyway, how profoundly undemocratic that would have been and how shocked you and others would have been? Imagine that and then you will know how we Leavers feel.
My bit because quoting seems to have gone wrong.
Isn't the current problem that the result of the first referendum actually can't be enacted in practical terms? That is one of the reasons there is a campaign for another vote, a campaign incidentally I am not keen on at all. Theresa May and others have described an impasse. Very soon attempts to resolve that impasse will fall by the wayside one by one because the practical results of brexit (if control of the borders is one) conflict with the Good Friday Agreement. Leaving consciously or unconsciously on WTO terms will also conflict with the Good Friday Agreement. So the 'democratic' vote of 17.4 million people is effectively just as much a vote to break the GFA as it is to leave the EU. The Good Friday Agreement was ratified by a 'democratic' referendum in the UK.
If Britain will not erect a hard border and neither will the Irish, as both have said-will Macron send his Euro army in to build it (when they have stopped taking out protesters in Paris). Seriously, where is it going to come from?
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.
So I assume you are OK with Remainers continuing the struggle, despite many setbacks, to have a second referendum on EU membership?
I would also assume that you are therefore in agreement with members of parliament from all sides wanting a meaningful vote on any deal that is made?
You should struggle for what you think is right of course. But having a second referendum before the first one is enacted is profoundly undemocratic.
Can you imagine had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM announced we were leaving anyway, how profoundly undemocratic that would have been and how shocked you and others would have been? Imagine that and then you will know how we Leavers feel.
My bit because quoting seems to have gone wrong.
Isn't the current problem that the result of the first referendum actually can't be enacted in practical terms? That is one of the reasons there is a campaign for another vote, a campaign incidentally I am not keen on at all. Theresa May and others have described an impasse. Very soon attempts to resolve that impasse will fall by the wayside one by one because the practical results of brexit (if control of the borders is one) conflict with the Good Friday Agreement. Leaving consciously or unconsciously on WTO terms will also conflict with the Good Friday Agreement. So the 'democratic' vote of 17.4 million people is effectively just as much a vote to break the GFA as it is to leave the EU. The Good Friday Agreement was ratified by a 'democratic' referendum in the UK.
If Britain will not erect a hard border and neither will the Irish, as both have said-will Macron send his Euro army in to build it (when they have stopped taking out protesters in Paris). Seriously, where is it going to come from?
MY BIT
I have heard this line of argument before. Leave to regain control of the borders by not having control of the borders. If I am right you are now arguing for no brexit at all, which given your comments about 'democracy' and not disrespecting the referendum vote yesterday, looks like you have had a complete change of heart about brexit overnight and you now favour remain. Good for you to become a remainer.
Dont think I have posted on this thread, me and missus both voted Brexit - we were lied to, and didnt have the sense to see it - would love to have a chance to reverse our vote.
Watching it unravel and seeing how our UK politicians/ media blamed all the ills of our country on the EU, then, the realisation, all was within their power to resolve - sickening.
Also, as on old git who lived in London through the 70/80's - the Irish border issue is, in my mind, unresolvable ('eh Seth).
We are of a similar age, and in addition I am of an Irish background. I wonder if anybody under about 40 has a deep appreciation regarding the 'troubles'. For you and I, even in London (if that is where you are) the terror war of those times was real and tangible. The rights and wrongs have been examined endlessly, although Terrorist Violence is always wrong, but the Good Friday Agreement was worked on and teased out of what seemed the most intractable situation, and since it came into force people in the UK and Ireland have very largely enjoyed comparative peace. The issue is actually resolvable by either the risk of ending the common travel area, or by somehow leaving/not leaving the EU in a way that means no controls on that particular border. Neither resolution is anywhere in sight, and I have been banging on about it long enough, and the powers that be have had two and a half years to come up with a solution, but are no closer now than they were the day after the referendum.
Actually , I should have also put 90's, seriously, was blown off my feet in Docklands bomb mid nineties, we had to relocate for 3 months while the girders in our warehouse were straightened out - terrifying experience, 50% of our workforce were Irish - we all went and got pissed.
That doesn't really support the point though. It just seems quite strange how other countries don't obsess over this idea of 'sovereignty' and accept that if they are in a group of nations there will be certain expectations to being part of it, not that it means they have somehow lost all autonomy.
It must be something unique to the UK, being an island nation, though Scotland and Ireland seem to not have this fixation. Probably more likely to be the drip drip media narrative that gets into people's minds and stops them thinking about things that really matter, giving a free pass to the UK government on matters that really should be discussed.
I mused about this prior to my hiatus last year. More and more the phrase British Exceptionalism has appeared in discussions regarding Brexiter's attitude, although it should really be called English Exceptionalism because, as you noted, the other nations seem to not suffer from this fixation.
Exceptionalism in England has arisen from various misconceptions regarding our history, culture, geography and wealth:
- we are an old colonial power and at the height of our power we were the largest Empire in the history of humanity in terms of our sphere of control. This extends to our legacy in the Commonwealth and the fact the Queen remains the Head of State of 15 states and remains an important figure for the rest of the Commonwealth. Exceptionalists believe that by this virtue the UK still has an empire and that the Commonwealth is comprised of states of which we exercise a degree of control and would automatically come to our aid in times of trouble. This is completely incorrect; our Commonwealth brethren have remained at best ambivalent towards our weakness in the last few years and at worst openly stating they intend to exploit our turmoil.
- various historical misconceptions reinforce the Exceptionalist attitude that we are punching above our weight. Exceptionalists seem to think we won both World Wars single-handed and remained a significant power during the Cold War. They labour under the delusion that the British Armed Forces are the greatest military power of the planet and we are poised to exert our control wherever and whenever we feel like it.
- that the Industrial Revolution was purely a function of British innovation and ignoring the fact that the Industrial Revolution was only possible thanks to the millions of people brutally forced into slavery, forced labour and work camps to support the British Isles. The UK experienced huge technological uplift but ever since the early 20th century and the demise of the British Empire the UK has begun to lag technologically behind several other countries. Today, the UK is behind dozens of countries from a technological perspective but Exceptionalists think we remain a leading technological power on our own (in fact most of our recent technological advances have been thanks to collaboration with the EU or other G20 states). There is also the myth we are an industrious hard-working people compared to lazy foreigners yet our productivity slump suggests others.
- Exceptionalists think we are a hugely wealthy country and that foreigners who come here are attracted to our wealth and hugely generous benefits system. The UK is a wealthy country but per capita we are not in the top 20 for either measure. We have a heavily lopsided wealth division with more and more wealth being concentrated into the top 1% and increasing poverty. Foreigners do come here for wealth opportunities but it is to fill skilled job vacancies that Britons are increasingly unable to fill due to our failing education system that is failing to prepare most students for anything other than low-paid low-skill jobs in the service sector. There is zero evidence of a benefits lure as several studies have concluded that "benefits tourism" (along with "health tourism" is virtually non-existent.
- our geography. That somehow because a few miles of seawater separate us from mainland Europe means we are not part of it, that we are unique and that different rules somehow apply to us. Perversely, this delusion that because we are only miles off the coast of France that we are special and unique is flipped when Exceptionalists consider the distance between us and the rest of the world. They are blissfully unaware of the realities of economics and geography - the Gravity Theory of Trade.
- culture. That British culture is better and that other forms of culture are worse than ours, more savage or incompatible with our own. That British culture is derived from white, Christian, Anglo-Saxon roots and is threatened by cultural influences from the inferior cultures. That those who come here should not display their native cultures and adopt the more conservative British cultural practices. Even then, Exceptionalists will not view immigrants who assimilate, nor their children, as truly British. Even third or fourth generation children from non-white or non-Christian backgrounds will experience discrimination or disdain from Exceptionalists.
Exceptionalist attitudes and tropes are almost always evident in Brexiter arguments - "we survived World War 2", "they need us more than we need them", "make Britain Great again", "Britain First" etc.
"Sovereignty" is simply a dogwhistle. We all know the UK hasn't stopped being a sovereign country. When Brexiters/Exceptionalists bang on about "sovereignty", what they mean is they don't like the idea that the UK is an equal partner in a treaty with non-British countries. That a British MEP has the same rank as a Polish MEP. That each country gets a judge on the ECJ.
Exceptionalism then leads to contempt of the foreign and the different, in this case non-British, non-Christian and non-whites. It is why the Leave campaigns ramped up the fear factor on Muslim countries joining the EU and Customs Union. It is why Gina Miller, a non-white woman, received so much abuse. It is why the likes of Rupert Murdoch (white Anglo-Saxon and owner of jingoistic British papers) and Arron Banks get a free pass for their manipulation of UK politics, whereas a foreign philanthropist of Jewish descent George Soros gets the usual tropes thrown at him of dirty corrupt money and interfering in UK politics for donating to the People's Vote campaign.
It becomes clear the dirty secret at the root of Exceptionalism; that wealthy British white elites are born to rule over others. Private schools, nepotism, parachuted into top roles well above their skills and intellectual capability. Exceptionalists and Brexiters alike line up to doff their cap to their betters. Jacob Rees-Mogg, BoJo, Farage, the toffs of the Tory party, the owners of the UK media, the heads of the various thinktanks, hedge funds and lobbyists etc. They all universally share the characteristics of coming from families in the upper echelons of British society, generally inherited wealth, sent to boarding/public school and being handed top roles without working for them. The Brexit campaign was and is orchestrated by a very narrow, very wealthy, very male and very pale stratosphere relying on this outdated notion that Britain is somehow innately superior to all others, the poisonous ideology of Exceptionalism. That hardly anyone in the Leave campaigning came from anything other than an extremely privileged, Anglo-Saxon background speaks volumes.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
The constituency Southbank most cares about, and often repeated by him, are the white working class. This apparent grouping will be no better off, in fact likely worse off, but they will be told by their soverign government that decisions affecting their lives will now be exclusively taken by a British elite rather than a european elite - and that they should feel proud that their misfortune is at the sole judgement of their parliamentary elite - but heaven forfend they be called working class.
This would be the constituency left behind by globalisation and neoliberal reforms stretching back to the Thatcher Reagan era. That would be the constituency who organise themselves in cooperatives and unions and who went on to form the Labour Party. And were then left behind by that same Labour Party as people trashed the concept of Trades Unions and decided that it would be better to utilise marketing consultants than talk direct to the authentic voices of the voters.
It's obviously very kind of citizens such as @PragueAddick to show concern for these people even if he isn't entirely comfortable with the word socialist! But perhaps this should wake us up to the fact that there is an organisation known as the Trades Union Congress with some 50 affiliates which in turn have over five million members working in the jobs mentioned above. The TUC has a position on Brexit and it isn't entirely different to Labour - their focus is on jobs, the economy, workers rights, consumer rights and the environment.
Bottom line is that both Labour and the TUC leave the options open to campaign for different options depending upon how the situation evolves. But neither are walking into the trap of condemning leave voters. It's more that they are setting the situation up to canvas upon whatever the best outcome is for workers if and when the time comes.
Naturally the executives of these organisations use a different language to the other elements of the political spectrum but they are the authentic voice of working class people and have been for many decades. Perhaps we might reassess how Trades Unions have been demonised and more importantly why.
Prague, you cannot accept my answer because you do not believe in national sovereignty, whereas most Leave voters do, as in control over laws, borders and money. It is a fundamental difference which there can be little or no compromise on, as we can see all the time by the ferocity of feelings over it.
No mate, I cannot accept that you have even tried to answer my question. But for some weird reason, I really want to get to the bottom of this, so I'll keep going. Let's say that Brexit will be a sign that the UK has, in your book, regained its sovereignty.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
How will kicking them in the teeth by overturning the Referendum result make people feel do you think? More belief that politics can work for them or less do you think? More likely to become more politically active or more demoralised do you think? More belief that you can make a difference by voting or less do you think?
I have now asked you twice how you would feel had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM had decided to take us out of the EU anyway. Your silence speaks for itself.
Comments
I'm guessing he might be involved in a food storage facility, drugs wholesale or supplies generators to Northern Ireland?
;-)
Just the latest example
This type of ignorance of the facts will be as big an issue in any further referendum as it it was in 2016. Gove alluded to it on Marr last Sunday. Murdoch and co will home in on this wilful ignorance with a vengeance. “They’re calling us thick let’s show them” will be the mantra.
As for the future of the economy, you're right to an extent that there will always be new things that come along that make it difficult to predict exact figures with 100% certainty. But that doesn't mean that you can't model two or more different scenarios and say with confidence that one scenario will will turn out better or worse than the other. That is what our economists have been doing and their forecasts all predict that we will be worse with Brexit, and worse still under a no-deal Brexit. There are no serious models or forecasts that predict a better economy under Brexit, and there is absolutely no reason why there would be. To use the fact that there will always be a certain level of uncertainty as to the exact numbers and pretend that that means we cannot predict the relative merits of competing systems is economically, politically and morally bankrupt. Indeed to do so to try and persuade others in the context of national upheaval and decision-making deadlock is profoundly undemocratic.
Watching it unravel and seeing how our UK politicians/ media blamed all the ills of our country on the EU, then, the realisation, all was within their power to resolve - sickening.
Also, as on old git who lived in London through the 70/80's - the Irish border issue is, in my mind, unresolvable ('eh Seth).
I suspect what people find hard to accept is that 17.4M voted for Leave and that they lost to what they consider were poor arguments and a disingenuous prospectus which contradicted itself.
So some have a pop at you whilst others look at what's next: Nail on head. We have a ticking time bomb damaging our nation which needs to be defused. Much to the annoyance of Brextremists the opposition to Brexit is getting organised and gaining traction.
Latest polls suggest 60:40 in favour of a second referendum. Surely it's undemocratic to resist the will of 20M+ voters?!
And the proposed WA has support of less than 25% of the electorate because it's rubbish! Not very democratic if the final deal would lose hands down in a vote.
So we await the decision of the House on the 11th and if the WA is defeated heavily then we will see a very swift and unpredictable set of actions and motions. Or as Sir Keir Starmer puts it, Labour will have to peddle through the gears rapidly. Perhaps the our Sovereign Parliament will "take back control" and the anti-democratic extremists will scream foul - We might look forward to that?!
Whatever models you've got, you post them here and we'll have a look at their methodology and the credentials of their producers. Either that or we'll stick our fingers in our ears and go "wibble, wobble, wibble, it might take fifty years to see the benefits" ;-)
It must be something unique to the UK, being an island nation, though Scotland and Ireland seem to not have this fixation. Probably more likely to be the drip drip media narrative that gets into people's minds and stops them thinking about things that really matter, giving a free pass to the UK government on matters that really should be discussed.
OK. Good.
Now please explain how that will in turn bring a materially (i.e tangibly) better life to examples of the British version of 'the Forgotten'. People who may be Charlton fans. A fireman. An NHS worker. A teacher. A fitter. Someone who has worked for M&S for 25 years. Someone who has worked in Greenwich Council for the same time. This kind of people. Absolutely not the elite. Quite possibly not a uni degree among them, although their kids may be on the way to getting one.
How will the restoration of sovereignty remove their feeling of having been forgotten?
I wonder if anybody under about 40 has a deep appreciation regarding the 'troubles'. For you and I, even in London (if that is where you are) the terror war of those times was real and tangible.
The rights and wrongs have been examined endlessly, although Terrorist Violence is always wrong, but the Good Friday Agreement was worked on and teased out of what seemed the most intractable situation, and since it came into force people in the UK and Ireland have very largely enjoyed comparative peace.
The issue is actually resolvable by either the risk of ending the common travel area, or by somehow leaving/not leaving the EU in a way that means no controls on that particular border.
Neither resolution is anywhere in sight, and I have been banging on about it long enough, and the powers that be have had two and a half years to come up with a solution, but are no closer now than they were the day after the referendum.
Exceptionalism in England has arisen from various misconceptions regarding our history, culture, geography and wealth:
- we are an old colonial power and at the height of our power we were the largest Empire in the history of humanity in terms of our sphere of control. This extends to our legacy in the Commonwealth and the fact the Queen remains the Head of State of 15 states and remains an important figure for the rest of the Commonwealth. Exceptionalists believe that by this virtue the UK still has an empire and that the Commonwealth is comprised of states of which we exercise a degree of control and would automatically come to our aid in times of trouble. This is completely incorrect; our Commonwealth brethren have remained at best ambivalent towards our weakness in the last few years and at worst openly stating they intend to exploit our turmoil.
- various historical misconceptions reinforce the Exceptionalist attitude that we are punching above our weight. Exceptionalists seem to think we won both World Wars single-handed and remained a significant power during the Cold War. They labour under the delusion that the British Armed Forces are the greatest military power of the planet and we are poised to exert our control wherever and whenever we feel like it.
- that the Industrial Revolution was purely a function of British innovation and ignoring the fact that the Industrial Revolution was only possible thanks to the millions of people brutally forced into slavery, forced labour and work camps to support the British Isles. The UK experienced huge technological uplift but ever since the early 20th century and the demise of the British Empire the UK has begun to lag technologically behind several other countries. Today, the UK is behind dozens of countries from a technological perspective but Exceptionalists think we remain a leading technological power on our own (in fact most of our recent technological advances have been thanks to collaboration with the EU or other G20 states). There is also the myth we are an industrious hard-working people compared to lazy foreigners yet our productivity slump suggests others.
- Exceptionalists think we are a hugely wealthy country and that foreigners who come here are attracted to our wealth and hugely generous benefits system. The UK is a wealthy country but per capita we are not in the top 20 for either measure. We have a heavily lopsided wealth division with more and more wealth being concentrated into the top 1% and increasing poverty. Foreigners do come here for wealth opportunities but it is to fill skilled job vacancies that Britons are increasingly unable to fill due to our failing education system that is failing to prepare most students for anything other than low-paid low-skill jobs in the service sector. There is zero evidence of a benefits lure as several studies have concluded that "benefits tourism" (along with "health tourism" is virtually non-existent.
- our geography. That somehow because a few miles of seawater separate us from mainland Europe means we are not part of it, that we are unique and that different rules somehow apply to us. Perversely, this delusion that because we are only miles off the coast of France that we are special and unique is flipped when Exceptionalists consider the distance between us and the rest of the world. They are blissfully unaware of the realities of economics and geography - the Gravity Theory of Trade.
- culture. That British culture is better and that other forms of culture are worse than ours, more savage or incompatible with our own. That British culture is derived from white, Christian, Anglo-Saxon roots and is threatened by cultural influences from the inferior cultures. That those who come here should not display their native cultures and adopt the more conservative British cultural practices. Even then, Exceptionalists will not view immigrants who assimilate, nor their children, as truly British. Even third or fourth generation children from non-white or non-Christian backgrounds will experience discrimination or disdain from Exceptionalists.
Exceptionalist attitudes and tropes are almost always evident in Brexiter arguments - "we survived World War 2", "they need us more than we need them", "make Britain Great again", "Britain First" etc.
"Sovereignty" is simply a dogwhistle. We all know the UK hasn't stopped being a sovereign country. When Brexiters/Exceptionalists bang on about "sovereignty", what they mean is they don't like the idea that the UK is an equal partner in a treaty with non-British countries. That a British MEP has the same rank as a Polish MEP. That each country gets a judge on the ECJ.
Exceptionalism then leads to contempt of the foreign and the different, in this case non-British, non-Christian and non-whites. It is why the Leave campaigns ramped up the fear factor on Muslim countries joining the EU and Customs Union. It is why Gina Miller, a non-white woman, received so much abuse. It is why the likes of Rupert Murdoch (white Anglo-Saxon and owner of jingoistic British papers) and Arron Banks get a free pass for their manipulation of UK politics, whereas a foreign philanthropist of Jewish descent George Soros gets the usual tropes thrown at him of dirty corrupt money and interfering in UK politics for donating to the People's Vote campaign.
It becomes clear the dirty secret at the root of Exceptionalism; that wealthy British white elites are born to rule over others. Private schools, nepotism, parachuted into top roles well above their skills and intellectual capability. Exceptionalists and Brexiters alike line up to doff their cap to their betters. Jacob Rees-Mogg, BoJo, Farage, the toffs of the Tory party, the owners of the UK media, the heads of the various thinktanks, hedge funds and lobbyists etc. They all universally share the characteristics of coming from families in the upper echelons of British society, generally inherited wealth, sent to boarding/public school and being handed top roles without working for them. The Brexit campaign was and is orchestrated by a very narrow, very wealthy, very male and very pale stratosphere relying on this outdated notion that Britain is somehow innately superior to all others, the poisonous ideology of Exceptionalism. That hardly anyone in the Leave campaigning came from anything other than an extremely privileged, Anglo-Saxon background speaks volumes.
It's obviously very kind of citizens such as @PragueAddick to show concern for these people even if he isn't entirely comfortable with the word socialist! But perhaps this should wake us up to the fact that there is an organisation known as the Trades Union Congress with some 50 affiliates which in turn have over five million members working in the jobs mentioned above. The TUC has a position on Brexit and it isn't entirely different to Labour - their focus is on jobs, the economy, workers rights, consumer rights and the environment.
Bottom line is that both Labour and the TUC leave the options open to campaign for different options depending upon how the situation evolves. But neither are walking into the trap of condemning leave voters. It's more that they are setting the situation up to canvas upon whatever the best outcome is for workers if and when the time comes.
Naturally the executives of these organisations use a different language to the other elements of the political spectrum but they are the authentic voice of working class people and have been for many decades. Perhaps we might reassess how Trades Unions have been demonised and more importantly why.
I have now asked you twice how you would feel had the Referendum gone the other way and a Tory PM had decided to take us out of the EU anyway. Your silence speaks for itself.