NornIrish, Stig, Seth and Bournemouth, I take my hat off to all of you for the comments on the previous page. Absolutely nail on head. If any leaver can read the points you have made and not admit that at least in part they have made a mistake, then indeed they are in the stupid camp. Stig's point 2 is very much the reason I believe certain people are determined that the UK should leave....
OK , so without any over-claim to authority, and of course using my tendency towards polemic language, I thought I might try and capture some snapshots of how people react to Brexit on the other side of the Channel.
Brits: If you had given Cameron something more tangible to take back as a concession, Remain would have won
Nearly everyone in EU27: FFS! Thatcher negotiated a shedload of exemptions and reductions in contributions that no other country has received. Why should we give you more now, just because Cameron can't sort his shit out in his party? When and where would it end? Back in 5 years time with another referendum threat?
Brits: No other country has seen a population increase like we have. We needed to be able to stop immigration from new accession countries who overburden our social services
All the EU: Why are you pretending that Article 7 doesn't exist?
Poland: We even came on the Andrew Marr Show (see page 3 of transcript) and pointed out, in perfect English, exactly this.
Jeremy Corbyn: Staying in the EU inhibits my ability to re-nationalise industries like the railways.
All the EU: Are you for real? You may not have been important then, but you were around in the early 90s so you know damn well that it was the Brits who foisted their privatised utilities ideas on us as a key part of the Single Market. Didn't you notice that NONE of us followed your way of privatising the railways, and that isn't a coincidence. Own your own shit!"
Brits: the EU is basically run by Germany, anyway
France: Bonjour!...
Brits: the EU isn't democratic, anyway
EU MEPs: You ignored EP elections and as a result you sent us a load of twats from UKIP who quite deliberatly just took the piss and maximised their expenses claims to fund their futile UK campaign, or maybe just to line their own pockets. And you are lecturing us on EU democracy?
There's loads more I could write but it would swallow up the whole page. I am just trying to convey how differently it looks from over here. If this format doesn't work well...it's my fault.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
"Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011." - Another twisted tabloid stylee sound bite with little substance.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
Would you be so kind as to explain this statement please, I don't know what you are referring to.
Gove at his slimiest on Andrew Marr this morning. Trying to make out he can be the great healer of the divided nation. But fully behind the PM of course! Even less trustworthy than Johnson imo. He will have Uncle Rup’s backing so when May falls....
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
As in the U.K. you get the Government you voted for. Sovereignty I believe 😀
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread. You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
Total and utter rubbish. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You really need to avoid fake news as you seem to keep repeating the same lies here like some kind of gullible far-right parrot.
NornIrish, Stig, Seth and Bournemouth, I take my hat off to all of you for the comments on the previous page. Absolutely nail on head. If any leaver can read the points you have made and not admit that at least in part they have made a mistake, then indeed they are in the stupid camp. Stig's point 2 is very much the reason I believe certain people are determined that the UK should leave....
In all the discussion on here and elsewhere Leavers prepared to admit that they might have misjudged the situation or weren't aware of the full consequences of Brexit are like hens teeth. I think that element of human nature, and none of us like having stuff pointed out to us that undermines our views, combined with a "it won't happen to me" approach, again that we all suffer from to one degree or another (and leads to 1000's of A&E admissions every year!) is the reason I have no real expectations regarding a potential second referendum.
For example most Leavers just do not believe the US is gearing up to roll back our food or product standards even when they're shown the evidence...
...and those that do downplay its significance anyway or present it as a positive.
Things are going to change after Brexit, in my view not for the better, yet 30 months after we voted Leavers have not presented a single tangible benefit that is going to make my life better. Or theirs if they took the emotional element out of the equation and were being honest about it...
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Or to put it more crudely, it's simply insulting to suggest the Dutch or the Danes or the Spanish or the Irish or the Swedes, etc. etc. are too f*****g stupid to realise they are under the yoke of the evil EU run by the Germans.
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Or to put it more crudely, it's simply insulting to suggest the Dutch or the Danes or the Spanish or the Irish or the Swedes, etc. etc. are too f*****g stupid to realise they are under the yoke of the evil EU run by the Germans.
They apparently must be genetically different from the majority of Britons who according to you are too stupid full stop.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread. You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
Can you help me out then?
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
This is something I relate to. The EU acts as a bit of a buffer against the continual iron grip of the UK establishment.
France and Germany seem to run the EU. Things not going too well in France at present!
If one lifts the bonnet on the EU one might find that it's actually the centre right Christian Democrat bloc which have been running things and appointing the likes of Junker. And things are not going to well for the Christian Democrats as we shall see in next year's EU MEP elections. As posted before, both centre left and centre right are down by 10% since 2014 as a result of austerity response to the Euro crisis, the refugee crisis and the advances made by the Alt-right who have gone from 5 to 15% in many countries.
Macron in France is typical of the Third Way approach looking at the bigger picture and planning for big reforms as well as improving growth opportunities. But he has also looked to take on every vested interest including the SNCF unions. One could write so much more about the failings of the centre but perhaps some perceive that those who back a centre left populist approach are born again Marxists and Corbynistas! Not to mention signed up members of the PLO and Sinn Fein according to one critic!
Bottom line is that left thinkers are starting to write books and present a critique of the current situation and this acknowledges the lived experience of those in all corners of the EU. It looks at austerity as an ill conceived response, at regime change as a neo colonial neo liberal intervention, and at the lack of productivity / wage growth compared to the ever growing returns on capital.
This doesn't make people anti-capitalist but there is a simple observation that capitalism will eat itself if allowed and if some new social democratic vision and model is not introduced.
So it's good to start looking at who is driving the European project but might be worth looking at the agendas of the different groupings and the shifting voting patterns as the Alt-Right, Populist Left and Greens grab c.25% of vote share between them since 2014.
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Or to put it more crudely, it's simply insulting to suggest the Dutch or the Danes or the Spanish or the Irish or the Swedes, etc. etc. are too f*****g stupid to realise they are under the yoke of the evil EU run by the Germans.
They apparently must be genetically different from the majority of Britons who according to you are too stupid full stop.
There's two things I've tried not to do on this thread; label ALL Leavers stupid (because they aren't) and go around dropping passive aggressive Lols all over the shop.
You crack on with your strawman arguments in the absence of any proper response to someone pointing out how ridiculous it is that no one else in the EU has apparently spotted they're being subjugated by the Germans though.
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Or to put it more crudely, it's simply insulting to suggest the Dutch or the Danes or the Spanish or the Irish or the Swedes, etc. etc. are too f*****g stupid to realise they are under the yoke of the evil EU run by the Germans.
They apparently must be genetically different from the majority of Britons who according to you are too stupid full stop.
There's two things I've tried not to do on this thread; label ALL Leavers stupid (because they aren't) and go around dropping passive aggressive Lols all over the shop.
You crack on with your strawman arguments in the absence of any proper response to someone pointing out how ridiculous it is that no one else in the EU has apparently spotted they're being subjugated by the Germans though.
I found this article in the Observer (France is deeply fractured. Gilets jaunes are just a symptom) very interesting and pertinent to your latest post. I don't know the author, but in quite a short article I think he nails the issue, not just in France, or the UK, but even here in CZ, and therefore probably just about everywhere in the developed world, to a greater or lesser extent. Recommended.
France and Germany seem to run the EU. Things not going too well in France at present!
If one lifts the bonnet on the EU one might find that it's actually the centre right Christian Democrat bloc which have been running things and appointing the likes of Junker. And things are not going to well for the Christian Democrats as we shall see in next year's EU MEP elections. As posted before, both centre left and centre right are down by 10% since 2014 as a result of austerity response to the Euro crisis, the refugee crisis and the advances made by the Alt-right who have gone from 5 to 15% in many countries.
Macron in France is typical of the Third Way approach looking at the bigger picture and planning for big reforms as well as improving growth opportunities. But he has also looked to take on every vested interest including the SNCF unions. One could write so much more about the failings of the centre but perhaps some perceive that those who back a centre left populist approach are born again Marxists and Corbynistas! Not to mention signed up members of the PLO and Sinn Fein according to one critic!
Bottom line is that left thinkers are starting to write books and present a critique of the current situation and this acknowledges the lived experience of those in all corners of the EU. It looks at austerity as an ill conceived response, at regime change as a neo colonial neo liberal intervention, and at the lack of productivity / wage growth compared to the ever growing returns on capital.
This doesn't make people anti-capitalist but there is a simple observation that capitalism will eat itself if allowed and if some new social democratic vision and model is not introduced.
So it's good to start looking at who is driving the European project but might be worth looking at the agendas of the different groupings and the shifting voting patterns as the Alt-Right, Populist Left and Greens grab c.25% of vote share between them since 2014.
What is a “left thinker”? The label conjures up pseudo intellectuals who were barely relevant in the 20th century never mind the 21st century? And if you weigh up the number of jobs created by “left thinkers” versus the number they have destroyed or prevented it will be strongly in the negative. The battle between Capitalism and other systems ended 30 years ago. Capitalism has proven to be the most successful and enduring system ever created. The debate about that is over. Going forward the debate is about governments that promote and create conditions for free market economies while at same time using appropriate levels of taxation and policies that promote effective social welfare, public education, job creation, wage growth, employee rights, consumer rights. The EU is just one type of balanced free market system “with light and appropriate controls” that has been gaining ground over the last 25 years despite the attempts by nationalist parties mired in idioms and slogans from the last century continuously trying to undermine it. Any argument that still uses the terms “left” and “right”, unless talking about history, should be ignored and treated as irrelevant.
I found this article in the Observer (France is deeply fractured. Gilets jaunes are just a symptom) very interesting and pertinent to your latest post. I don't know the author, but in quite a short article I think he nails the issue, not just in France, or the UK, but even here in CZ, and therefore probably just about everywhere in the developed world, to a greater or lesser extent. Recommended.
It is the elites in the UK, France, Italy etc that fight to block those policies of the EU designed to protect poorer communities and workers from the vagaries of globalisation.
Having lived in two different EU countries and spent extensive time working in a third, this idea that their 'national sovereignty' cannot run alongside being in the EU comes across as the most uniformed, cliched style thinking possible. Just simply repeating it as all other arguments have been disproved doesn't make it true.
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
Or to put it more crudely, it's simply insulting to suggest the Dutch or the Danes or the Spanish or the Irish or the Swedes, etc. etc. are too f*****g stupid to realise they are under the yoke of the evil EU run by the Germans.
They apparently must be genetically different from the majority of Britons who according to you are too stupid full stop.
There's two things I've tried not to do on this thread; label ALL Leavers stupid (because they aren't) and go around dropping passive aggressive Lols all over the shop.
You crack on with your strawman arguments in the absence of any proper response to someone pointing out how ridiculous it is that no one else in the EU has apparently spotted they're being subjugated by the Germans
I found this article in the Observer (France is deeply fractured. Gilets jaunes are just a symptom) very interesting and pertinent to your latest post. I don't know the author, but in quite a short article I think he nails the issue, not just in France, or the UK, but even here in CZ, and therefore probably just about everywhere in the developed world, to a greater or lesser extent. Recommended.
As you say, also relevant to the UK. I see the disaffected, marginalised and really all those who have rejected bureaucratic centrism as the possible basis for change. One of the reasons I voted for Brexit.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread. You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
Can you help me out then?
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration. Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists). Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy. I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will. Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011. You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread. You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
Can you help me out then?
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration. Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists). Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Plenty of nation states that are undemocratic.
Would you define China more democratic than the EU ?
Comments
Brits: If you had given Cameron something more tangible to take back as a concession, Remain would have won
Nearly everyone in EU27: FFS! Thatcher negotiated a shedload of exemptions and reductions in contributions that no other country has received. Why should we give you more now, just because Cameron can't sort his shit out in his party? When and where would it end? Back in 5 years time with another referendum threat?
Brits: No other country has seen a population increase like we have. We needed to be able to stop immigration from new accession countries who overburden our social services
All the EU: Why are you pretending that Article 7 doesn't exist?
Poland: We even came on the Andrew Marr Show (see page 3 of transcript) and pointed out, in perfect English, exactly this.
Jeremy Corbyn: Staying in the EU inhibits my ability to re-nationalise industries like the railways.
All the EU: Are you for real? You may not have been important then, but you were around in the early 90s so you know damn well that it was the Brits who foisted their privatised utilities ideas on us as a key part of the Single Market. Didn't you notice that NONE of us followed your way of privatising the railways, and that isn't a coincidence. Own your own shit!"
Brits: the EU is basically run by Germany, anyway
France: Bonjour!...
Brits: the EU isn't democratic, anyway
EU MEPs: You ignored EP elections and as a result you sent us a load of twats from UKIP who quite deliberatly just took the piss and maximised their expenses claims to fund their futile UK campaign, or maybe just to line their own pockets. And you are lecturing us on EU democracy?
There's loads more I could write but it would swallow up the whole page. I am just trying to convey how differently it looks from over here. If this format doesn't work well...it's my fault.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
Things not going too well in France at present!
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
For example most Leavers just do not believe the US is gearing up to roll back our food or product standards even when they're shown the evidence...
uk.businessinsider.com/uk-us-brexit-trade-deal-would-put-british-farmers-under-severe-threat-2018-5
...and those that do downplay its significance anyway or present it as a positive.
Things are going to change after Brexit, in my view not for the better, yet 30 months after we voted Leavers have not presented a single tangible benefit that is going to make my life better. Or theirs if they took the emotional element out of the equation and were being honest about it...
As has been stated many times by people who have experience of living in different countries, they are just as proud of their own culture as the UK is and many fought in recent memory for independence from real repression. The idea that they will sleepwalk into giving up their own 'sovereignty' just comes across as completely unaware of the nature of 21st century co-operation and just seems like another example of a slogan replacing real analysis or understanding.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Macron in France is typical of the Third Way approach looking at the bigger picture and planning for big reforms as well as improving growth opportunities. But he has also looked to take on every vested interest including the SNCF unions. One could write so much more about the failings of the centre but perhaps some perceive that those who back a centre left populist approach are born again Marxists and Corbynistas! Not to mention signed up members of the PLO and Sinn Fein according to one critic!
Bottom line is that left thinkers are starting to write books and present a critique of the current situation and this acknowledges the lived experience of those in all corners of the EU. It looks at austerity as an ill conceived response, at regime change as a neo colonial neo liberal intervention, and at the lack of productivity / wage growth compared to the ever growing returns on capital.
This doesn't make people anti-capitalist but there is a simple observation that capitalism will eat itself if allowed and if some new social democratic vision and model is not introduced.
So it's good to start looking at who is driving the European project but might be worth looking at the agendas of the different groupings and the shifting voting patterns as the Alt-Right, Populist Left and Greens grab c.25% of vote share between them since 2014.
You crack on with your strawman arguments in the absence of any proper response to someone pointing out how ridiculous it is that no one else in the EU has apparently spotted they're being subjugated by the Germans though.
Scroll down to chart on southern Europeans attitude to Germany
I found this article in the Observer (France is deeply fractured. Gilets jaunes are just a symptom) very interesting and pertinent to your latest post. I don't know the author, but in quite a short article I think he nails the issue, not just in France, or the UK, but even here in CZ, and therefore probably just about everywhere in the developed world, to a greater or lesser extent. Recommended.
I see the disaffected, marginalised and really all those who have rejected bureaucratic centrism as the possible basis for change. One of the reasons I voted for Brexit.
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Would you define China more democratic than the EU ?