The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.3 -
He's already said Communist police state China is more or less the same as being in the UK whilst it is in the EU from a democratic perspective so I wouldn't expect any kind of intelligent response from the kind of person who spouts such moronic claptrap.ShootersHillGuru said:
Plenty of nation states that are undemocratic.Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Would you define China more democratic than the EU ?
Southbank has zero idea what 'democracy' or 'nation state' means but just spouts these as buzzwords in the misguided belief they give his lunatic ideas any kind of credibility.1 -
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.1 -
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
10 -
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.2 -
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
2 -
How rude can you get.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
This is why people stop debating on this thread2 -
If you think we only have rights in this country on the whim of what the EU has or hasn't let us have then you are only exposing your complete ignorance of what the EU can or cannot do.
Please give me a single example of a right that the EU has unilaterally given or taken from you.0 -
Not at all rude. It’s bollocks and I don’t mind calling it out as that.
So the EU is some undemocratic monster spawned by who exactly ? If my memory serves me it was spawned by a group of democracies looking to work together for the common good. It’s as democratic as the UK’s democracy. It just fits this insane Brexit narrative to suggest it isn’t.8 -
I don't think the reason most Leavers have stopped debating on here is because of rudeness. One in particular was happy to throw around all sorts of personal insults. I think instead they've stopped debating on here because it's impossible to do so without reverting to conspiracy theories and meaningless slogans which are taken apart, admittedly quite vehemently. To suggest they are not here as they are easily offended is a bit of a cop out to be honest - stonemuse for example makes a good case often and gets credit for it. It's just the nonsense stuff from some others which is easily picked apart and called out.8
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.
Is it any less rude than suggesting 'Remoaners' are traitors, elitist, ignorant of others position or too stupid to recognise they are being lead by the nose by an unelected bureaucracy? It should cut both ways this respecting others opinions thing.blackpool72 said:
How rude can you get.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
This is why people stop debating on this thread3 -
I never got to vote on freedom of movement into this country, neither did you, until 2016 when a majority voted against it.. Now, that decision is on its way to being reversed with the support of people like you. So don't try to tell me you are the democrat and I am not.Fiiish said:If you think we only have rights in this country on the whim of what the EU has or hasn't let us have then you are only exposing your complete ignorance of what the EU can or cannot do.
Please give me a single example of a right that the EU has unilaterally given or taken from you.0 -
Did you get to vote on the rate of VAT or Rate of Income Tax. HS2 or anything else that YOUR elected representatives agree on our behalf ?Southbank said:
I never got to vote on freedom of movement into this country, neither did you, until 2016 when a majority voted against it.. Now, that decision is on its way to being reversed with the support of people like you. So don't try to tell me you are the democrat and I am not.Fiiish said:If you think we only have rights in this country on the whim of what the EU has or hasn't let us have then you are only exposing your complete ignorance of what the EU can or cannot do.
Please give me a single example of a right that the EU has unilaterally given or taken from you.
6 -
The historical struggle for democracy is 'complete bollocks'?ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Look back just over the past few pages alone and you will see many people saying they trust EU bureaucrats to defend them more than our own Parliamentary system can.0 -
They are policies, not rights.Big difference.ShootersHillGuru said:
Did you get to vote on the rate of VAT or Rate of Income Tax. HS2 or anything else that YOUR elected representatives agree on our behalf ?Southbank said:
I never got to vote on freedom of movement into this country, neither did you, until 2016 when a majority voted against it.. Now, that decision is on its way to being reversed with the support of people like you. So don't try to tell me you are the democrat and I am not.Fiiish said:If you think we only have rights in this country on the whim of what the EU has or hasn't let us have then you are only exposing your complete ignorance of what the EU can or cannot do.
Please give me a single example of a right that the EU has unilaterally given or taken from you.2 -
I have never said any of thatBournemouth Addick said:.
Is it any less rude than suggesting 'Remoaners' are traitors, elitist, ignorant of others position or too stupid to recognise they are being lead by the nose by an unelected bureaucracy? It should cut both ways this respecting others opinions thing.blackpool72 said:
How rude can you get.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
This is why people stop debating on this thread1 -
Absolutely I'm not saying you did but others have.blackpool72 said:
I have never said any of thatBournemouth Addick said:.
Is it any less rude than suggesting 'Remoaners' are traitors, elitist, ignorant of others position or too stupid to recognise they are being lead by the nose by an unelected bureaucracy? It should cut both ways this respecting others opinions thing.blackpool72 said:
How rude can you get.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
This is why people stop debating on this thread0 -
Every insult makes me more convinced and determined. It makes me more determined to stick up for the 17.4 million who are being slowly screwed over by people working against democracy.1 -
you did however in the last few weeks write a post which consisted of "Fuck the EU".blackpool72 said:
I have never said any of thatBournemouth Addick said:.
Is it any less rude than suggesting 'Remoaners' are traitors, elitist, ignorant of others position or too stupid to recognise they are being lead by the nose by an unelected bureaucracy? It should cut both ways this respecting others opinions thing.blackpool72 said:
How rude can you get.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
This is why people stop debating on this thread
Then when I asked you a genuine and politely phrased question to try and understand your own personal hatred towards "The EU" you just gave it an LOL. Which I would say is pretty much the equivalent of me holding out a hand to you at the Valley and you brushing past as if I wasn't there.
I'm still really interested in your answer, BTW
1 -
The problem with that view is that we live within a globalised economy where real power, essentially economic power, is in the hands of large international conglomerates and traders on world markets that the governments of nation states have little influence on and even less control of - no matter how democratic they are.Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
7 - Sponsored links:
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Particularly Facebook/Google/Amazon/Apple, whose case the EC is on, having already made Microsoft and Intel cough up. Cheered on enviously by many Americans, btw.micks1950 said:
The problem with that view is that we live within a globalised economy where real power, essentially economic power, is in the hands of large international conglomerates and traders on world markets that the governments of nation states have little influence on and even less control of - no matter how democratic they are.Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
1 -
Southbank said:
Every insult makes me more convinced and determined. It makes me more determined to stick up for the 17.4 million who are being slowly screwed over by people working against democracy.
Nobody. Certainly not me is suggesting that universal suffrage is anything but a hard won right. Don’t make the mistake of thinking it’s something that’s unique to this country. Of course it’s a fragile and precious flower that must be nurtured and protected. Many of our European neighbours have fought for it in ways that make this country’s struggle look like a picnic. These countries are the ones you take delight in offending by suggesting that they somehow have less regard for democracy than we do. The eu has been built in the image of all of those nation democracies including our own.
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0
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1) So you are against the right of freedom of movement to be given to you?Southbank said:
I never got to vote on freedom of movement into this country, neither did you, until 2016 when a majority voted against it.. Now, that decision is on its way to being reversed with the support of people like you. So don't try to tell me you are the democrat and I am not.Fiiish said:If you think we only have rights in this country on the whim of what the EU has or hasn't let us have then you are only exposing your complete ignorance of what the EU can or cannot do.
Please give me a single example of a right that the EU has unilaterally given or taken from you.
2) Yes, you did get a chance to vote on it. You vote for MPs who make up the Parliament who approved freedom of movement and you vote for MEPs in the Parliament that regulates that right.
3) in 2016 the official Leave campaigns and all leading Brexiters stood on a platform where they defended our place in the single market and ergo freedom of movement. Therefore no one voted in 2016 to end freedom of movement, that was not on the ballot paper.
The fact is I am a democrat because I actually understand how our democracy works and want to defend it from those who defraud the electorate, and you are in favour of politicians and populists who undermine democracy. Whatever that makes you, it is certainly not someone who is pro-democracy.13 -
Bureaucrats?Southbank said:
The historical struggle for democracy is 'complete bollocks'?ShootersHillGuru said:
Ok right. That’s clear now. Complete bollocks but crystal clear.Southbank said:
The right to vote was not given to us. People like the Chartists and suffragettes struggled and sometimes died for it. For people these days to dismiss its importance and to say we get more 'rights' at the whim of the EU bureaucrats is tragic.ShootersHillGuru said:
Sorry. I can’t make fuck all sense of thatSouthbank said:
Yes it is more important than any of those things. Rights only exist as rights if they are democratically won and held, if not they are things held or withheld on the decision of bureaucratic elites.CharltonMadrid said:
Is this idea of democracy more important than consumer rights, worker protection and the general economic state of the country then? I am not sure how having a referendum, thus promoting democracy, outweighs the importance of any of those. Also, how does the House of Lords, that great feudal tradition, fit into this?Southbank said:
The simple difference between us is that I believe the nation state is the only possible current form of organisation which can provide citizens with democracy. And democracy is more valuable than any other consideration.PragueAddick said:
Can you help me out then?Southbank said:
Which comment effectively sums up the difference between your and my attitude to the EU more than any other on this thread.PragueAddick said:
Exactly. I might get round to listing some of the appalling things Orban has done in the last couple of years without any interference from "the EU". I expect your colleagues are desperately praying that some interference will actually take place.Chaz Hill said:
I still have plenty of Hungarian former work colleagues in Budapest. They have no problem at all being in the EU. It is Orban and his cronies they are concerned about. They see EU membership as a welcome safety net.PragueAddick said:
The Poles who in the latest opinion poll indicated that 82% of them think EU membership is a good thing? Or some different Poles, who exist on Planet Southbank?Southbank said:
Ask the Greeks, Poles,Hungarians and the Italians how sovereign they are. Italy has not had an elected Prime Minister since the last one was effectively deposed by the EU in 2011.Fiiish said:
China is an autocratic police state that is incredibly intrusive into the lives of its citizens.Southbank said:
By people are 'seemingly voting against their own interests' it is meant economic interests only. Fortunately we have a political system which gives people something more than money-a vote and thereby a political stake in their society.NornIrishAddick said:So, anyway, a few links from today's Irish Times.
Fintan O'Toole has another comment piece out today, timed to coincide with his book, of which today's piece is an extract (some writing in response seem to feel that he shouldn't be allowed do such a thing, but if that was the case we should do away with things like syndication too).
As ever, it's well-written and scathing, I'm particularly intrigued by the reference to sado-populism (a notion which does seem to make sense of people seemingly voting against what one would imagine would be their interests in elections across the World).
In other news, preparations for a failure to get Parliamentary approval of the Agreement have been ramped up, and the possibility of the PM not achieving her aim seems high, leading to dangerous levels of uncertainty. Pat Leahy's article is interesting, in part, because it refers to the Statute of Westminster, a decision in which, yet again, Ireland loomed large and where the UK's influence in international politics was diminished (albeit slightly, with powers being lost by Westminster to the likes of Canada, IFS et al).
China is an increasingly successful economy. The people who run it have a lot in common with the EU bureaucracy. They too are narrow technical managerialists who say the economy is more important than democracy.
I do not share that view and neither do many other Brexit voters. Democracy is the only way that most people have any control at all over economic policies, through their ability to vote for Governments to do their will.
Apparently there are Remainers who would rather go down the Chinese route.
The EU is a collection of countries working together across economic and legal spheres, where each country remains fully sovereign, and 99% of the citizens living in the EU will never have any meaningful interaction with the EU-level authorities as all of their interactions will be at most at a national level.
I am a Remain voter, I have a far better understanding of our relationship with the EU than you will ever have and I can say without a doubt my democratic rights are in no way lessened by our EU membership.
You are entirely within your rights to be in favour of a federal Europe, but you cannot pretend that national sovereignty can exist alongside it, it is one or the other.
You will have to wait for Macron's Euro army before proper intervention obviously.
You suggested, without any substantiation, that the Hungarians feel a loss of sovereignty as a result of their EU membership. The inference being that "the EU" "interferes" to stop the Hungarians making decisions about their country.
However, if I understand your latest post correctly you are mocking me for admitting that in fact orban has gotten away with a whole load of shit without the EU intervening.
Both cannot be true. Obvs.....
Most people in capitalist society have no direct control over the economy. The only way they can influence it is through their vote (Or collective organisation which barely exists).
Once that power is removed or diluted then we are reduced to hoping for the best intentions of undemocratically formed and unaccountable bureaucracies.
Look back just over the past few pages alone and you will see many people saying they trust EU bureaucrats to defend them more than our own Parliamentary system can.0 -
Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/02/honest-brexit-bigotry-ugly-chapter-history?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard2 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/02/various-scenarios-after-commons-defeat-for-mays-brexit-deal?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Interesting take on the diff scenarios here.0 -
Led by Murdoch who didn’t want his scummy media empire’s ‘wings clipped’.PragueAddick said:Worth remembering this...
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That is a very good and bang on the money piece.Red_in_SE8 said:Let’s be honest about what’s really driving Brexit: bigotry
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/02/honest-brexit-bigotry-ugly-chapter-history?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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The UK has lagged behind many EU countries in having equal voting rights for men and women in National Elections.Southbank said:
Every insult makes me more convinced and determined. It makes me more determined to stick up for the 17.4 million who are being slowly screwed over by people working against democracy.
The EU countries that were more 'democratic' before the UK became 'democratic' are:
Latvia.
Finland.
Denmark.
Estonia.
Lithuania.
Austria.
Germany.
Hungary.
Poland.
Sweden.
Luxembourg.
Holland.
Czech Republic and Slovakia. (At the time they introduced equal voting rights they were one country.)
Republic of Ireland (initially as the Irish Free State. (This particular aspect of 'democracy' was introduced there immediately rule from Westminster stopped.)
So those who may or may not be working towards remain, are working to maintain alliance with countries that have more enlightened democratic histories than the UK.
In terms of democratic representation for 50% of the population 15 of the current 28 EU nations got there way before the UK.
Your position could be argued that the 17.4 million brexit voters are the ones working against democracy.
Are you prepared to argue otherwise?
5
