Interesting, but like others here your view of a second referendum is entirely based on your Remain position from the start.
Everybody who took part in the first referendum had the 'information', which is really opinion, that to leave would be an economic catastrophe-we were blasted with this 'information' throughout the referendum campaign and have been ever since.
It was always clear as well that if the result of the referendum was carried out by people who never believed in it (the Tory cabinet has always had a majority of Remainers in it) then they would do everything they could to avoid actually leaving. If you could be bothered to look back 2 years you would see that my, and others, comments were exactly along those lines. A combination of big business and the elites across politics and all the professions have been united against Brexit from the start. Now they are openly preparing to spit in the face of the people who voted for Leave.
It was also always obvious that the EU would not compromise and that the negotiations would be a waste of time, as has proved the case.
There is no new 'information' to base a second referendum on. The current crisis is a purely political one based on the fact that 17.4 million people have no political party that represents them, yet. The only new 'information;' we have is that we need a new political movement in this country which carries out the wishes of its supporters. The only positive thing about another referendum is that it could create the opportunity for a new party to emerge.
Actually there are several new pieces of information that have come to light that make it very clear we need a second referendum before we leave the EU:
1) The first referendum was run explicitly as an advisory and discretionary referendum yet has been treated ever since the votes were counted as a binding and irreversible decision. This is very important in terms of how people would have voted or if they had turned up at all. The question in an advisory referendum is completely different in a binding one.
2) Vote Leave ran on a campaign of keeping us in the Customs Union/Single Market, keeping Freedom of Movement, and a Norway/Switzerland style arrangement i.e. staying in the EEA. As soon as the campaign was over, everyone involved in Vote Leave almost immediately began campaigning for hard Brexit. This demonstrates a basic lack of integrity and bad faith on the part of every prominent Brexit campaigner.
3) Pretty much everything Vote Leave and the other Leave campaigns did during the campaigning was either dishonest, unethical or illegal. As normal electoral campaigning rules were not in effect it was more or less impossible for the relevant authorities to contain the extent of activity Vote Leave et al engaged in as would be possible under normal electoral law.
4) The Electoral Commission and independent electoral observers have refused to sign off on the referendum result and have strongly urged the result to be annulled due to the high levels of illegal activity, anti-democratic actions and overseas interference in the campaign.
There is a reason by the polls are in favour of remaining in the EU by a greater factor than anytime in the last 5 year (some polls even report Remain trumps Leave by more than 2 to 1). It is because as the extent of the betrayal of the Brexiters becomes more obvious to the average voter and how the Leave lies of a unicorns Brexit have been totally exposed, the angriest voters are actually those who voted Leave and now regret it and would vote Remain now. The only people who still believe in a positive Brexit are those who still believe the lies told on a daily basis by those who are seeking to betray the British people for personal gain; these are the real elites you need to attack. Instead you choose to attack doctors, teachers, scientists, those working to cure cancer, because your mind has been poisoned by the lies of the hedge fund managers, media barons, overseas oligarchs, tax exiles and disaster capitalists who are still laughing at the fact people like you still believe them.
Democracy in this country has been betrayed. Not by Remainers but by the Brexiters who have irrevocably tainted a referendum with illegal activity and in doing so have defrauded every single British voter, including yourself. What should have been the biggest democratic exercise in British history is in fact one of the biggest pieces of electoral fraud in human history.
Whilst much of what you say, I agree with, it is also true to accuse Remain of dishonesty too in the campaign. And the leading players of both leave and remain in the campaign were members of the Conservative party. To be fair, the Prime Minister could not be accused of this but it is still her party. Cameron should be locked up for putting the issues within his own party above the country. I'd make a special cell for both him and Blair to share!
Project Fear was a total myth, invented by Farage et al to discredit what were credible and now crystallising risks to leaving the EU. The phrase 'both sides lied' is one of the most dishonest defences of Leave's fraudulent and illegal campaign. The biggest lie the Remain campaign ever told is dwarfed by the smallest lie the Leavers ever uttered.
And now we have a Tory leadership election to make it all even more of a farce! I think we ought to be close to the point where we should storm parliament to get them out!
Whenever I don't want to be photographed with someone, I make sure I walk straight towards the camera, waving my hands, with the other person between me and the camera. Just in case.
Interesting, but like others here your view of a second referendum is entirely based on your Remain position from the start.
Everybody who took part in the first referendum had the 'information', which is really opinion, that to leave would be an economic catastrophe-we were blasted with this 'information' throughout the referendum campaign and have been ever since.
It was always clear as well that if the result of the referendum was carried out by people who never believed in it (the Tory cabinet has always had a majority of Remainers in it) then they would do everything they could to avoid actually leaving. If you could be bothered to look back 2 years you would see that my, and others, comments were exactly along those lines. A combination of big business and the elites across politics and all the professions have been united against Brexit from the start. Now they are openly preparing to spit in the face of the people who voted for Leave.
It was also always obvious that the EU would not compromise and that the negotiations would be a waste of time, as has proved the case.
There is no new 'information' to base a second referendum on. The current crisis is a purely political one based on the fact that 17.4 million people have no political party that represents them, yet. The only new 'information;' we have is that we need a new political movement in this country which carries out the wishes of its supporters. The only positive thing about another referendum is that it could create the opportunity for a new party to emerge.
Actually there are several new pieces of information that have come to light that make it very clear we need a second referendum before we leave the EU:
1) The first referendum was run explicitly as an advisory and discretionary referendum yet has been treated ever since the votes were counted as a binding and irreversible decision. This is very important in terms of how people would have voted or if they had turned up at all. The question in an advisory referendum is completely different in a binding one.
2) Vote Leave ran on a campaign of keeping us in the Customs Union/Single Market, keeping Freedom of Movement, and a Norway/Switzerland style arrangement i.e. staying in the EEA. As soon as the campaign was over, everyone involved in Vote Leave almost immediately began campaigning for hard Brexit. This demonstrates a basic lack of integrity and bad faith on the part of every prominent Brexit campaigner.
3) Pretty much everything Vote Leave and the other Leave campaigns did during the campaigning was either dishonest, unethical or illegal. As normal electoral campaigning rules were not in effect it was more or less impossible for the relevant authorities to contain the extent of activity Vote Leave et al engaged in as would be possible under normal electoral law.
4) The Electoral Commission and independent electoral observers have refused to sign off on the referendum result and have strongly urged the result to be annulled due to the high levels of illegal activity, anti-democratic actions and overseas interference in the campaign.
There is a reason by the polls are in favour of remaining in the EU by a greater factor than anytime in the last 5 year (some polls even report Remain trumps Leave by more than 2 to 1). It is because as the extent of the betrayal of the Brexiters becomes more obvious to the average voter and how the Leave lies of a unicorns Brexit have been totally exposed, the angriest voters are actually those who voted Leave and now regret it and would vote Remain now. The only people who still believe in a positive Brexit are those who still believe the lies told on a daily basis by those who are seeking to betray the British people for personal gain; these are the real elites you need to attack. Instead you choose to attack doctors, teachers, scientists, those working to cure cancer, because your mind has been poisoned by the lies of the hedge fund managers, media barons, overseas oligarchs, tax exiles and disaster capitalists who are still laughing at the fact people like you still believe them.
Democracy in this country has been betrayed. Not by Remainers but by the Brexiters who have irrevocably tainted a referendum with illegal activity and in doing so have defrauded every single British voter, including yourself. What should have been the biggest democratic exercise in British history is in fact one of the biggest pieces of electoral fraud in human history.
Verry well put and may I add to this as follows: Regarding point 2, Leave campaigned on ALL possible Brexits soft, hard, Norway, Swiss, Canada. It is only from the day after the result that they defined Brexit as leaving everything, insisted on the immediate invocation of article 50 and abandoned the pledge to NHS funding. The irony is that Remain campaigners stated that the only way to guarantee remaining in the CU and SM was to vote Remain.
On point 3 we have only seen certain allegations hit the public domain and they are scandalous. The system needs to be better policed for future elections at a national level because the technology is at such a level that it is inevitable that there will be a repeat. Not for me to speculate on the source of funding - many identify it as Russian but there are many other places. Suffice it to say that political movements across Western Democracies can go from 1% to 15% within a couple of years and that some 25% of the electorate are breaking from the traditional pre crash voting patterns.
Whilst we might support your fourth point, perhaps the only solution is what we are currently witnessing. And that's an outline deal going through cabinet which will most probably fail in the House. This leads to a default "No Deal" Brexit and therefore the House, which does not support such an outcome, has to either adopt the deal later OR stop Brexit OR go for a second vote.
The new information we have two years down the road is that we know that the Hard Brexit supporters do not care for the Irish border nor manufacturing and the whole country can see what an actual Brexit deal looks like. Couple that with the demographic changes and the nation watching this process unfold, and that is what leads us to a massive shift in support for a second referendum. 60:40 excluding don't knows. And a 55:45 Remain majority. If people thought 700,000 was a big march then let's see how big the next one is, should our MPs require a nudge.
What happens next? If May was going to be no-confidenced then one would expect that 48 letters would have gone in by now. That they haven't shows how weak Rees Mogg and his chums actually are. We now have a few weeks to digest the discourse and a series of polls. And we will see what the opposition response is. McDonnell on the radio this morning stated that the deal will simply not get through the House and he remains supportive of Labour policy: That is to push for an election and if that fails to push for a "People's Vote"
For those who say that this is anti-democratic, it is actually quite the opposite. The 650 MPs have to weigh up the options as per our system and at some point they have to come back to the people. As posted before, it has been my long held belief that we had to come back close to a BINO option which was always going to be sub optimal compared to remain but is not the cliff edge which Rees Mogg et al are calling for. Now that we have arrived, the electorate can see the reality emerge from behind the unicorns and our elected representatives can consult. That is democracy in action.
And if a new UKIP emerges, or the Tories split then that too is part of our democratic process.
Amber Rudd has returned to the cabinet as work and pensions secretary, replacing Esther McVey. Steve Barclay (who) has been appointed Secretary of State for Brexit. 21 MP's have sent in letters of no confidence in Theresa May.
Amber Rudd and Stephen Barclay join the Cabinet. The centre of gravity, therefore, in the Cabinet shifts towards remain - Rudd is an ardent Remainer, Barclay is on the soft side of Brexit.
So their appointments fly in the face of the Rees-Mogg/Andrew Bridgen/Steve Baker campaign to get Theresa May to shift policy more towards no-deal. She's doubling-down.
She's not looking like being booted out by her party yet.
Parliament seems stacked against May's deal, if she loses the meaningful vote, what then?
An election would solve nothing or would it?
Or she could suggest let the people decide but the right wouldn't go for that, Labour might though and it would save face all round at that stage (once parliament had rejected it) and keep May in office potentially.
Comments
Sounds like my wedding night.
Some sort of message being sent here.
Edited - too slow
Regarding point 2, Leave campaigned on ALL possible Brexits soft, hard, Norway, Swiss, Canada. It is only from the day after the result that they defined Brexit as leaving everything, insisted on the immediate invocation of article 50 and abandoned the pledge to NHS funding. The irony is that Remain campaigners stated that the only way to guarantee remaining in the CU and SM was to vote Remain.
On point 3 we have only seen certain allegations hit the public domain and they are scandalous. The system needs to be better policed for future elections at a national level because the technology is at such a level that it is inevitable that there will be a repeat. Not for me to speculate on the source of funding - many identify it as Russian but there are many other places. Suffice it to say that political movements across Western Democracies can go from 1% to 15% within a couple of years and that some 25% of the electorate are breaking from the traditional pre crash voting patterns.
Whilst we might support your fourth point, perhaps the only solution is what we are currently witnessing. And that's an outline deal going through cabinet which will most probably fail in the House. This leads to a default "No Deal" Brexit and therefore the House, which does not support such an outcome, has to either adopt the deal later OR stop Brexit OR go for a second vote.
The new information we have two years down the road is that we know that the Hard Brexit supporters do not care for the Irish border nor manufacturing and the whole country can see what an actual Brexit deal looks like. Couple that with the demographic changes and the nation watching this process unfold, and that is what leads us to a massive shift in support for a second referendum. 60:40 excluding don't knows. And a 55:45 Remain majority. If people thought 700,000 was a big march then let's see how big the next one is, should our MPs require a nudge.
What happens next? If May was going to be no-confidenced then one would expect that 48 letters would have gone in by now. That they haven't shows how weak Rees Mogg and his chums actually are. We now have a few weeks to digest the discourse and a series of polls. And we will see what the opposition response is. McDonnell on the radio this morning stated that the deal will simply not get through the House and he remains supportive of Labour policy: That is to push for an election and if that fails to push for a "People's Vote"
For those who say that this is anti-democratic, it is actually quite the opposite. The 650 MPs have to weigh up the options as per our system and at some point they have to come back to the people. As posted before, it has been my long held belief that we had to come back close to a BINO option which was always going to be sub optimal compared to remain but is not the cliff edge which Rees Mogg et al are calling for. Now that we have arrived, the electorate can see the reality emerge from behind the unicorns and our elected representatives can consult. That is democracy in action.
And if a new UKIP emerges, or the Tories split then that too is part of our democratic process.
Steve Barclay (who) has been appointed Secretary of State for Brexit.
21 MP's have sent in letters of no confidence in Theresa May.
So their appointments fly in the face of the Rees-Mogg/Andrew Bridgen/Steve Baker campaign to get Theresa May to shift policy more towards no-deal. She's doubling-down.
Everyone else is a Brexiter by definition.
She's not looking like being booted out by her party yet.
Parliament seems stacked against May's deal, if she loses the meaningful vote, what then?
An election would solve nothing or would it?
Or she could suggest let the people decide but the right wouldn't go for that, Labour might though and it would save face all round at that stage (once parliament had rejected it) and keep May in office potentially.