How many of you were so convinced that the EU army quote from Farage and Co was complete fantasy? Well guess what...Macron calls for it and Merkal mentioned it in the EU parliament today.
Not so much of a fantasy now is it?
*** Attention Disco***
Having your had your "argument" shot down in flames, do you care to respond?
I for one never had a problem with an EU army, as far as I am aware it would be not so different to NATO? Domestic defence forces would still exist, and a load of money could be saved in pooling resources, as happens in education, science, policing and many other ways. Maybe some of the money saved could go towards the NHS?
I don't think people really grasp just how much Europe leans on the US and UK for provision of NATO capabilities. It's not just a case of clubbing together with all the kit. In air to air refuelling and strategic airlift alone Europe is massively short of capability and would require a huge investment to match NATO on their own. If you think a Euro army is saving anybody any money, think again.
One thing any Euro army would not do is save money. Never would this happen and not even Merkel or Macron have claimed this would be the case.
The Americans have more Electronic Warfare capability in one Division (1st Infantry Division for example) than the entire British Army. I've no doubt that this is true for the rest of the European armies.
I'm all for a trade union, but we have NATO for a reason.
And Putin has stated how keen he is on a European Army. I wonder why?
a better graph would be percentage of GDP (which USA would still be top of.. by a percent or so). the US is the largest economy in the world, of course its going to spend more in usd compared to luxemberg.
It's worth remembering Trump is threatening to cut funding to the military, not cut funding to nato, what funds go to nato? It's a treaty organisation, the spending commitment to the military as a percentage of gdp is in the terms of NATO membership.
Agreed, only US, Estonia and UK meet the 2% target which is what Trump's administration (rightly) feel is wrong.
But the chart above shows the dollar value of being in a treaty with the US....a list of equipment and manpower it equates to also dwarfs any potential EU army.
NATO was created to combat USSR, and is a successful coalition.
It is interesting to see Putin's recent defence spending. 20 years of successive growth (and a cut last year) has seen their army modernise and specialise beyond most Europeans understanding. The EU army couldnt lance a boil on a Russian General's arse.
i disagree, although admittedly the russian army has been modernised, it's not beyond the size of the combined forces of the EU. In fact its dwarfed in comparison.
The russian army is around a million, whilst the combined EU is 1.8 million, nearly double the size. Although some members would not have as advanced a military, that would be the point of creating an EU army and a minimum standard and co-operation of member states armed forces.
Sara Gibbs is clearly an extreme, bigoted nationalist and right wing press-lover/believer. Shes making our supreme leader look silly, so I'm going to ignore her posts. Lalalalalala
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Hi @Southbank . It's three pages back so I just wanted to gently remind you of my question
Admittedly it's three years since I first asked you, so a few more days won't hurt.
Ha! I don't have any expectations either way for my personal life-but I guess you mean my finances/ business life. We have just received a big government order to create a post Brexit thing (can't go into any detail for confidentially reasons) which will create new jobs and would have gone to a different European country pre-Brexit. I imagine there is a lot of that happening. In general I think the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is if we leave or if we do not. As you know economics is not the reason I voted Brexit.
I mean everything in your personal life that you reasonably believe could be made better by government policies. Things that currently make you unhappy enough that you have spent hours of your life resolutely pushing Brexit for the last three years on a football forum. In so far as you have ever explained this obsession, you talk about "sovereignty". What I want to know is, assuming you get your "sovereignty" back, how, in your daily life will it make you feel, and why? For the sake of argument I'll allow you to assume that "the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is" even though I don't believe that for one minute. What will this "return of sovereignty" bring you? There are millions of people I would ask them same thing by the way. They wave around this "sovereignty" thing, and I have not the faintest idea what they expect from it. Or in many cases, if they can even define the loss of 'sovereignty' that they currently feel- you have certainly struggled with that.
Go on, give me a couple of concrete ways in which your own life will be materially better.
My basic belief is that democracy can only function within a nation state, where individual citizens have a direct relationship with those in power through the ballot box. We can only make our politicians truly accountable if they are making the decisions which affect us and we have the power to kick them out if we don't like what they do.
The EU does not work like that and is one of the reasons I have always been opposed to it. The EU is impervious to direct democracy through the careful creation of layers of decision making which take power further and further away from individual citizens.
I am not against international organisations by the way, into which individual nations enter with clear lines of accountability and the ability to leave when they wish. The EU is a supranational body which takes power away from individual countries and deposits it in a largely unaccountable bureaucracy.
Democracy is not some optional 'nice to have' in my life but the main way I enter into society as an equal person. So to answer your question of how would it make me feel were we to actually leave the EU (not May's BINO which is a worse outcome than the status quo), I would feel that we live in a democracy where individual citizens have the power to make their governments do what we wish.
Except we don't. In every UK general election the party that forms the government has less votes than the other parties. So most people end up with a government they didn't vote for.
Next...
That is because our 1st past the post system is set up to keep the two main parties in power for ever. Where I live the Tory party wins by a landslide at every election. So my vote is basically wasted every time I go to the ballot box. I am sure there are many many people across the UK who simply can't be bothered to vote because they know it will be a wasted vote. This is very sad because in a true democracy every vote should count. But the Tories and Labour will never allow proportional representation as it would only hurt them. Democracy ain't always as good as it should be.
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Hi @Southbank . It's three pages back so I just wanted to gently remind you of my question
Admittedly it's three years since I first asked you, so a few more days won't hurt.
Ha! I don't have any expectations either way for my personal life-but I guess you mean my finances/ business life. We have just received a big government order to create a post Brexit thing (can't go into any detail for confidentially reasons) which will create new jobs and would have gone to a different European country pre-Brexit. I imagine there is a lot of that happening. In general I think the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is if we leave or if we do not. As you know economics is not the reason I voted Brexit.
I mean everything in your personal life that you reasonably believe could be made better by government policies. Things that currently make you unhappy enough that you have spent hours of your life resolutely pushing Brexit for the last three years on a football forum. In so far as you have ever explained this obsession, you talk about "sovereignty". What I want to know is, assuming you get your "sovereignty" back, how, in your daily life will it make you feel, and why? For the sake of argument I'll allow you to assume that "the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is" even though I don't believe that for one minute. What will this "return of sovereignty" bring you? There are millions of people I would ask them same thing by the way. They wave around this "sovereignty" thing, and I have not the faintest idea what they expect from it. Or in many cases, if they can even define the loss of 'sovereignty' that they currently feel- you have certainly struggled with that.
Go on, give me a couple of concrete ways in which your own life will be materially better.
My basic belief is that democracy can only function within a nation state, where individual citizens have a direct relationship with those in power through the ballot box. We can only make our politicians truly accountable if they are making the decisions which affect us and we have the power to kick them out if we don't like what they do.
The EU does not work like that and is one of the reasons I have always been opposed to it. The EU is impervious to direct democracy through the careful creation of layers of decision making which take power further and further away from individual citizens.
I am not against international organisations by the way, into which individual nations enter with clear lines of accountability and the ability to leave when they wish. The EU is a supranational body which takes power away from individual countries and deposits it in a largely unaccountable bureaucracy.
Democracy is not some optional 'nice to have' in my life but the main way I enter into society as an equal person. So to answer your question of how would it make me feel were we to actually leave the EU (not May's BINO which is a worse outcome than the status quo), I would feel that we live in a democracy where individual citizens have the power to make their governments do what we wish.
Except we don't. In every UK general election the party that forms the government has less votes than the other parties. So most people end up with a government they didn't vote for.
Next...
That is because our 1st past the post system is set up to keep the two main parties in power for ever. Where I live the Tory party wins by a landslide at every election. So my vote is basically wasted every time I go to the ballot box. I am sure there are many many people across the UK who simply can't be bothered to vote because they know it will be a wasted vote. This is very sad because in a true democracy every vote should count. But the Tories and Labour will never allow proportional representation as it would only hurt them. Democracy ain't always as good as it should be.
If only we could have the chance to vote for a party that would make a change.....
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Hi @Southbank . It's three pages back so I just wanted to gently remind you of my question
Admittedly it's three years since I first asked you, so a few more days won't hurt.
Ha! I don't have any expectations either way for my personal life-but I guess you mean my finances/ business life. We have just received a big government order to create a post Brexit thing (can't go into any detail for confidentially reasons) which will create new jobs and would have gone to a different European country pre-Brexit. I imagine there is a lot of that happening. In general I think the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is if we leave or if we do not. As you know economics is not the reason I voted Brexit.
I mean everything in your personal life that you reasonably believe could be made better by government policies. Things that currently make you unhappy enough that you have spent hours of your life resolutely pushing Brexit for the last three years on a football forum. In so far as you have ever explained this obsession, you talk about "sovereignty". What I want to know is, assuming you get your "sovereignty" back, how, in your daily life will it make you feel, and why? For the sake of argument I'll allow you to assume that "the UK economy will carry on pretty much as it is" even though I don't believe that for one minute. What will this "return of sovereignty" bring you? There are millions of people I would ask them same thing by the way. They wave around this "sovereignty" thing, and I have not the faintest idea what they expect from it. Or in many cases, if they can even define the loss of 'sovereignty' that they currently feel- you have certainly struggled with that.
Go on, give me a couple of concrete ways in which your own life will be materially better.
My basic belief is that democracy can only function within a nation state, where individual citizens have a direct relationship with those in power through the ballot box. We can only make our politicians truly accountable if they are making the decisions which affect us and we have the power to kick them out if we don't like what they do.
The EU does not work like that and is one of the reasons I have always been opposed to it. The EU is impervious to direct democracy through the careful creation of layers of decision making which take power further and further away from individual citizens.
I am not against international organisations by the way, into which individual nations enter with clear lines of accountability and the ability to leave when they wish. The EU is a supranational body which takes power away from individual countries and deposits it in a largely unaccountable bureaucracy.
Democracy is not some optional 'nice to have' in my life but the main way I enter into society as an equal person. So to answer your question of how would it make me feel were we to actually leave the EU (not May's BINO which is a worse outcome than the status quo), I would feel that we live in a democracy where individual citizens have the power to make their governments do what we wish.
Except we don't. In every UK general election the party that forms the government has less votes than the other parties. So most people end up with a government they didn't vote for.
Next...
That is because our 1st past the post system is set up to keep the two main parties in power for ever. Where I live the Tory party wins by a landslide at every election. So my vote is basically wasted every time I go to the ballot box. I am sure there are many many people across the UK who simply can't be bothered to vote because they know it will be a wasted vote. This is very sad because in a true democracy every vote should count. But the Tories and Labour will never allow proportional representation as it would only hurt them. Democracy ain't always as good as it should be.
FPTP results in strong governments (with one or two exceptions in the last decade). It also severely restricts populism in our politics, which can only be a good thing. It also allows governments to cherry pick policies from smaller one policy parties (prime example is UKIP's increase in votes in 2015 and the brexit referendum a year later).
PR results in a mish mash coalition governments who regularly fall out and creates uncertainty and whacky policies and actively encourages populism.
It's not very good, but FPTP is our best option imo.
How many of you were so convinced that the EU army quote from Farage and Co was complete fantasy? Well guess what...Macron calls for it and Merkal mentioned it in the EU parliament today.
Not so much of a fantasy now is it?
*** Attention Disco***
Having your had your "argument" shot down in flames, do you care to respond?
I for one never had a problem with an EU army, as far as I am aware it would be not so different to NATO? Domestic defence forces would still exist, and a load of money could be saved in pooling resources, as happens in education, science, policing and many other ways. Maybe some of the money saved could go towards the NHS?
I don't think people really grasp just how much Europe leans on the US and UK for provision of NATO capabilities. It's not just a case of clubbing together with all the kit. In air to air refuelling and strategic airlift alone Europe is massively short of capability and would require a huge investment to match NATO on their own. If you think a Euro army is saving anybody any money, think again.
One thing any Euro army would not do is save money. Never would this happen and not even Merkel or Macron have claimed this would be the case.
The Americans have more Electronic Warfare capability in one Division (1st Infantry Division for example) than the entire British Army. I've no doubt that this is true for the rest of the European armies.
I'm all for a trade union, but we have NATO for a reason.
And Putin has stated how keen he is on a European Army. I wonder why?
Theresa May seemed to end her announcement with a riff on 'well I've done my best'. Maybe she is tired, understandably, but there was an air of resignation about what she said, it was about doing her duty as she sees it. 'A deal that delivers on the vote of the British people' she said, not any more than that nothing hopeful or aspirational, this deal or 'back to square one' she said. Looks to me she has very little hope of getting this through Parliament, and as a consequence her days in office are numbered. Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who said the first skill of a politician is to be able to count? I think May has done the counting, and unless great numbers of Labour MP's abstain her numbers fall short.
Brexit diminishes the status of the EU and will potentially kickstart its disbandment. Doubt they want this and any short term benefit for them will be overshadowed by the long term implications
Brexit diminishes the status of the EU and will potentially kickstart its disbandment. Doubt they want this and any short term benefit for them will be overshadowed by the long term implications
No winners in this other than perhaps Putin.
Pretty sure they'll miss the £9 billion net annual contribution?
Brexit diminishes the status of the EU and will potentially kickstart its disbandment. Doubt they want this and any short term benefit for them will be overshadowed by the long term implications
No winners in this other than perhaps Putin.
Pretty sure they'll miss the £9 billion net annual contribution?
Brexit diminishes the status of the EU and will potentially kickstart its disbandment. Doubt they want this and any short term benefit for them will be overshadowed by the long term implications
No winners in this other than perhaps Putin.
Pretty sure they'll miss the £9 billion net annual contribution?
Yeah it's not like we get anything for that
Burgundy passports. You can't put a price on burgundy passports.
I’d be amazed if this happens. Much greater chance of a General Election and far too many Tory backbenchers will prefer to bite the bullit than bite the dust. The party mechanisms will already be making threats and promises. Retain power at all costs.
I can also see Labour abstaining when the vote comes to the HoC.
Would be the end of the Labour Party as it currently is if they abstained I think.
Might be a totally bad thing as long as a new party is set up of moderate remainers from both current mainstream parties that then win a general election.
Comments
The russian army is around a million, whilst the combined EU is 1.8 million, nearly double the size. Although some members would not have as advanced a military, that would be the point of creating an EU army and a minimum standard and co-operation of member states armed forces.
Lalalalalala
Where I live the Tory party wins by a landslide at every election.
So my vote is basically wasted every time I go to the ballot box.
I am sure there are many many people across the UK who simply can't be bothered to vote because they know it will be a wasted vote.
This is very sad because in a true democracy every vote should count.
But the Tories and Labour will never allow proportional representation as it would only hurt them.
Democracy ain't always as good as it should be.
PR results in a mish mash coalition governments who regularly fall out and creates uncertainty and whacky policies and actively encourages populism.
It's not very good, but FPTP is our best option imo.
I better quit now before I get slaughtered. 😊
Brexiters unhappy
Remainers unhappy
EU unhappy
Brilliant
They get to have our cake and eat it.
Maybe she is tired, understandably, but there was an air of resignation about what she said, it was about doing her duty as she sees it.
'A deal that delivers on the vote of the British people' she said, not any more than that nothing hopeful or aspirational, this deal or 'back to square one' she said. Looks to me she has very little hope of getting this through Parliament, and as a consequence her days in office are numbered.
Wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who said the first skill of a politician is to be able to count? I think May has done the counting, and unless great numbers of Labour MP's abstain her numbers fall short.
No winners in this other than perhaps Putin.
I can also see Labour abstaining when the vote comes to the HoC.
Might be a totally bad thing as long as a new party is set up of moderate remainers from both current mainstream parties that then win a general election.
Must put the pipe down now.