Brexiters knew completely and fully what they were voting for, and they won. Everything that has happened since their thoroughly thought through victory was and has been anticipated. Nobody has taken that victory away. There is nobody to praise or blame for anything but themselves. Each and every single brexit voter. Their plan is a secret known only to themselves but that is a fruit of their victory. They don't have to tell anybody what the good or bad bits are when asked. Any brexit voter who does not wholly and ful!y own their victory and everything that flows from that seems to me to be a coward. The country belongs to the winners, losers like me will complain forever until brexiters find a way to shut us down. For me I complain because the country I once shared with others has been taken by 52% in a successful power grab, and being an alien in the country I have been in since birth is difficult to assimilate.
when I listen to people like you it does make me wonder how we can both be living on the same planet.
my main problem with brexit has been that T.May & the rest of the government /parliament are trying to appease all sides, but especially the remainers. The referendum was quite simple....we leave the EU. We joined it quite easily enough (at the 2nd time of asking) so we leave in the same way. There was always going to be tough decisions along the way, but you have to make them & move on. There has been too much fannying about. We should have told the EU our terms....paid them our exit fee & left.
To use the phrase 'people like you' in order to put me in a box is similar to the catch all phrase of 'foreigners' and 'immigrants'. You can describe me by what I have done (voted remain) but please don't use the 'people like you' phrase because in my view that is straying into a territory very close to that occupied by the racists.
You're a loon.
Feck me! A response from Sigmund Freud.
You're the one who brought up racism about a comment made from one middle aged white man, to another middle aged white man.
Its ok Stu, I can fight my own battles. I wasn't going to sink to the depths that some posters do by name calling just because I had the audacity to reply.
All I will say is that the remainers have won. After this weeks shenanigans there will be no hard brexit, no "no deal", but simply a very soft brexit. There is already a transition arrangement that means we will still be part of the EU until Jan 2021 but wont be able to have any say in any laws made after we leave in March 2019. We will have to pay £40bn & get nothing for it & will also be in some form of Customs Union because of Ireland. If you think this is what leaving the EU means then I don't suppose you've been divorced (twice) like I have.
I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to watch thurs nights episode of This Week. AC Greyling is frightening in his views on what should happen now & Andrew Neils questions to Liz & Michael & their answers at the end of the programmed summed it all up. Absolute farce.
The point is I didn't 'name call' you, I pushed back at your generalizing 'people like you' phrase aimed at me. Neither did I call you a racist.
Your assertion here that remain has won isn't evident in any way. In the vacuum of ideas from leavers the space is occupied by remain sceptics who are successful simply by asking brexiters awkward questions, as I ask you and others for a solution to the Irish Border. In the absence of knowing what to do with their victory brexiters are distracting everybody by obsessing about those who oppose them.
I too saw Grayling. In the programme I agreed with Kendall about no second referendum but also agree with Grayling that in a second referendum won by leave that should be that, because we have now had the debate that should have happened before the first vote.
By the way given your statements about it above, are you able to state your plan for the Irish border? I have asked you several times, is your response that it is somebody else's problem to solve, or that you don't have a clue?
Read 5 paragraphs and come across this already "This is sustainable as long as the UK does not require visas for EU27 visitors, and that the Republic of Ireland does not join the Schengen area."
So that's two big assumptions and two potential problems dismissed with a wave of the pen straight away.
"Let's ignore the bits I have no answer to and get on with the bits I do".
If the Republic of Ireland joined Schengen then there would have to be a hard border between UK and Eire as a consequence of Eire's decision, no doubt about that. The visa issue will be resolved anyway in whatever comes out of the 'negotiation'.
Brexiters knew completely and fully what they were voting for, and they won. Everything that has happened since their thoroughly thought through victory was and has been anticipated. Nobody has taken that victory away. There is nobody to praise or blame for anything but themselves. Each and every single brexit voter. Their plan is a secret known only to themselves but that is a fruit of their victory. They don't have to tell anybody what the good or bad bits are when asked. Any brexit voter who does not wholly and ful!y own their victory and everything that flows from that seems to me to be a coward. The country belongs to the winners, losers like me will complain forever until brexiters find a way to shut us down. For me I complain because the country I once shared with others has been taken by 52% in a successful power grab, and being an alien in the country I have been in since birth is difficult to assimilate.
when I listen to people like you it does make me wonder how we can both be living on the same planet.
my main problem with brexit has been that T.May & the rest of the government /parliament are trying to appease all sides, but especially the remainers. The referendum was quite simple....we leave the EU. We joined it quite easily enough (at the 2nd time of asking) so we leave in the same way. There was always going to be tough decisions along the way, but you have to make them & move on. There has been too much fannying about. We should have told the EU our terms....paid them our exit fee & left.
To use the phrase 'people like you' in order to put me in a box is similar to the catch all phrase of 'foreigners' and 'immigrants'. You can describe me by what I have done (voted remain) but please don't use the 'people like you' phrase because in my view that is straying into a territory very close to that occupied by the racists.
You're a loon.
Feck me! A response from Sigmund Freud.
You're the one who brought up racism about a comment made from one middle aged white man, to another middle aged white man.
Its ok Stu, I can fight my own battles. I wasn't going to sink to the depths that some posters do by name calling just because I had the audacity to reply.
All I will say is that the remainers have won. After this weeks shenanigans there will be no hard brexit, no "no deal", but simply a very soft brexit. There is already a transition arrangement that means we will still be part of the EU until Jan 2021 but wont be able to have any say in any laws made after we leave in March 2019. We will have to pay £40bn & get nothing for it & will also be in some form of Customs Union because of Ireland. If you think this is what leaving the EU means then I don't suppose you've been divorced (twice) like I have.
I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to watch thurs nights episode of This Week. AC Greyling is frightening in his views on what should happen now & Andrew Neils questions to Liz & Michael & their answers at the end of the programmed summed it all up. Absolute farce.
The point is I didn't 'name call' you, I pushed back at your generalizing 'people like you' phrase aimed at me. Neither did I call you a racist.
Your assertion here that remain has won isn't evident in any way. In the vacuum of ideas from leavers the space is occupied by remain sceptics who are successful simply by asking brexiters awkward questions, as I ask you and others for a solution to the Irish Border. In the absence of knowing what to do with their victory brexiters are distracting everybody by obsessing about those who oppose them.
I too saw Grayling. In the programme I agreed with Kendall about no second referendum but also agree with Grayling that in a second referendum won by leave that should be that, because we have now had the debate that should have happened before the first vote.
By the way given your statements about it above, are you able to state your plan for the Irish border? I have asked you several times, is your response that it is somebody else's problem to solve, or that you don't have a clue?
Read 5 paragraphs and come across this already "This is sustainable as long as the UK does not require visas for EU27 visitors, and that the Republic of Ireland does not join the Schengen area."
So that's two big assumptions and two potential problems dismissed with a wave of the pen straight away.
"Let's ignore the bits I have no answer to and get on with the bits I do".
If the Republic of Ireland joined Schengen then there would have to be a hard border between UK and Eire as a consequence of Eire's decision, no doubt about that. The visa issue will be resolved anyway in whatever comes out of the 'negotiation'.
Any prediction about how visa problems will be resolved as a result of negotiation?
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
Brexiters knew completely and fully what they were voting for, and they won. Everything that has happened since their thoroughly thought through victory was and has been anticipated. Nobody has taken that victory away. There is nobody to praise or blame for anything but themselves. Each and every single brexit voter. Their plan is a secret known only to themselves but that is a fruit of their victory. They don't have to tell anybody what the good or bad bits are when asked. Any brexit voter who does not wholly and ful!y own their victory and everything that flows from that seems to me to be a coward. The country belongs to the winners, losers like me will complain forever until brexiters find a way to shut us down. For me I complain because the country I once shared with others has been taken by 52% in a successful power grab, and being an alien in the country I have been in since birth is difficult to assimilate.
when I listen to people like you it does make me wonder how we can both be living on the same planet.
my main problem with brexit has been that T.May & the rest of the government /parliament are trying to appease all sides, but especially the remainers. The referendum was quite simple....we leave the EU. We joined it quite easily enough (at the 2nd time of asking) so we leave in the same way. There was always going to be tough decisions along the way, but you have to make them & move on. There has been too much fannying about. We should have told the EU our terms....paid them our exit fee & left.
To use the phrase 'people like you' in order to put me in a box is similar to the catch all phrase of 'foreigners' and 'immigrants'. You can describe me by what I have done (voted remain) but please don't use the 'people like you' phrase because in my view that is straying into a territory very close to that occupied by the racists.
You're a loon.
Feck me! A response from Sigmund Freud.
You're the one who brought up racism about a comment made from one middle aged white man, to another middle aged white man.
Its ok Stu, I can fight my own battles. I wasn't going to sink to the depths that some posters do by name calling just because I had the audacity to reply.
All I will say is that the remainers have won. After this weeks shenanigans there will be no hard brexit, no "no deal", but simply a very soft brexit. There is already a transition arrangement that means we will still be part of the EU until Jan 2021 but wont be able to have any say in any laws made after we leave in March 2019. We will have to pay £40bn & get nothing for it & will also be in some form of Customs Union because of Ireland. If you think this is what leaving the EU means then I don't suppose you've been divorced (twice) like I have.
I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to watch thurs nights episode of This Week. AC Greyling is frightening in his views on what should happen now & Andrew Neils questions to Liz & Michael & their answers at the end of the programmed summed it all up. Absolute farce.
The point is I didn't 'name call' you, I pushed back at your generalizing 'people like you' phrase aimed at me. Neither did I call you a racist.
Your assertion here that remain has won isn't evident in any way. In the vacuum of ideas from leavers the space is occupied by remain sceptics who are successful simply by asking brexiters awkward questions, as I ask you and others for a solution to the Irish Border. In the absence of knowing what to do with their victory brexiters are distracting everybody by obsessing about those who oppose them.
I too saw Grayling. In the programme I agreed with Kendall about no second referendum but also agree with Grayling that in a second referendum won by leave that should be that, because we have now had the debate that should have happened before the first vote.
By the way given your statements about it above, are you able to state your plan for the Irish border? I have asked you several times, is your response that it is somebody else's problem to solve, or that you don't have a clue?
Read 5 paragraphs and come across this already "This is sustainable as long as the UK does not require visas for EU27 visitors, and that the Republic of Ireland does not join the Schengen area."
So that's two big assumptions and two potential problems dismissed with a wave of the pen straight away.
"Let's ignore the bits I have no answer to and get on with the bits I do".
If the Republic of Ireland joined Schengen then there would have to be a hard border between UK and Eire as a consequence of Eire's decision, no doubt about that. The visa issue will be resolved anyway in whatever comes out of the 'negotiation'.
Just a heads up. Its Ireland, not Eire. If you were speaking in Irish then it would be Éire. But we don't tend to use Irish names when speaking in English. It typically comes across as condescending when used by English people, though I'm sure thats not the intention most of the time.
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
It's not just soundbites, it's the leave campaign talking whilst on the campaign trail. People voted based on those public statements. If they weren't meant to prove anything then they should never, ever have been said in public. They were said to confine those on the fence that leaving wasn't going to be scary or risky. They were lies that you and other leavers now want to disown and pretend were never said. They were said though, frequently and loudly and it's a disgrace these lies were allowed to go unchallenged at the time, and it's a disgrace you're looking to rewrite history now.
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
The point is I didn't 'name call' you, I pushed back at your generalizing 'people like you' phrase aimed at me. Neither did I call you a racist.
Your assertion here that remain has won isn't evident in any way. In the vacuum of ideas from leavers the space is occupied by remain sceptics who are successful simply by asking brexiters awkward questions, as I ask you and others for a solution to the Irish Border. In the absence of knowing what to do with their victory brexiters are distracting everybody by obsessing about those who oppose them.
I too saw Grayling. In the programme I agreed with Kendall about no second referendum but also agree with Grayling that in a second referendum won by leave that should be that, because we have now had the debate that should have happened before the first vote.
By the way given your statements about it above, are you able to state your plan for the Irish border? I have asked you several times, is your response that it is somebody else's problem to solve, or that you don't have a clue?
For what it's worth, the article really doesn't address most of the issues, it's rehashing, in most respects the Max-Fac option for which the technology currently does not exist to make it secure enough for both the UK and EU (in real time), and which no-one with any understanding of how trade borders work can be applied with the degree of confidence. But, given his links with things like the Legatum Institute, and his political views, I am not surprised that he attempted to make the case that he did.
It is, in effect, an argument for Ireland and the EU coming up with a solution to the UK's problem, and glosses over the fact that the EU Single Market is determinedly guarded to protect the interests of its members.
It makes heroic assumptions about the nature of cross border trade (a significant proportion of which is agricultural or agribusiness in nature) and glosses over the needs of both the EU and UK to maintain stringent controls in these areas (with particularly limited concern for what the impact would be of divergence, following the UK signing trade deals of its own).
As with far too much of the internal UK discussions, it concentrates on tariffs, without adequate consideration of non-tariff barriers.
Mention is made of Australian and Canadian agricultural produce entering the EU, but this happens at a limited number of entry ports and only for certain types of produce (the FTAs require Canada and Australia to act rigorously to prevent entry of produce that the EU bans), not like the number of border crossings here.
And, to be frank, arguing that SME's could be, in some way, exempted from the requirements to meet both the tariff and the regulatory standards needed for cross border trade (other than some sort of quarterly reporting) is just bonkers - the author's attempt to concentrate on larger businesses is to simply misunderstand the nature of cross-border trade in Ireland, it's really not equivalent to ships unloading whole container loads of goods at Felixstowe (there are full lorries, tankers, part loads, van loads and, even, where there are differences in taxation, car loads, for example of booze, that need to be on the HMRC radar). It is worth pointing out that, although mention is made of BIPS, quoted below, there is no suggestion of how, or how many would have to be introduced in Ireland, they are not seamless, they are clearly new infrastructure and will have a significant impact on what is now an all Ireland market, which is generally described by those in the business as frictionless now in Ireland.
The only goods that are required to go through specific entry points are animals and animal products, which must pass through ports/crossings with border inspection posts (BIPS) where veterinary checks can be done by accredited handlers and vets. It is important to point out that meat and animal trade within member states is not completely frictionless now, due to the sensitivity of health and safety concerns, and can only be done between accredited operators, accompanied by regulatory certifications.
The author suggests that businesses of 50 people or less could be removed from the the standard border processes - a sole trader importing goods that do not meet the regulatory standards is undermining the integrity of the EU's Single Market/regulatory space, the author is asking Ireland and the EU to connive with this, to suit the UK. I'm not an EU Commission negotiator, but I can see a situation where they may baulk at such a suggestion.
Equally, the idea that a GATT exemption for frontier trade will cover Northern Ireland as a whole is seeking to interpret the rules in (as a Belgian might say) a "unique" way; and I sincerely doubt that the WTO would accept such a thing
The article is effectively an argument that fails to recognise that the EU has its own legitimate concerns (including those of Ireland), it is predicated on an assumption that the only need is to come up with a solution that suits the UK. It is the political wish list of a pro-hard Brexit campaigner, which fails to engage with the need of the EU, if there is to be an agreement, to have some kind of legal certainty about what they are being asked to sign up to.
Brexiters knew completely and fully what they were voting for, and they won. Everything that has happened since their thoroughly thought through victory was and has been anticipated. Nobody has taken that victory away. There is nobody to praise or blame for anything but themselves. Each and every single brexit voter. Their plan is a secret known only to themselves but that is a fruit of their victory. They don't have to tell anybody what the good or bad bits are when asked. Any brexit voter who does not wholly and ful!y own their victory and everything that flows from that seems to me to be a coward. The country belongs to the winners, losers like me will complain forever until brexiters find a way to shut us down. For me I complain because the country I once shared with others has been taken by 52% in a successful power grab, and being an alien in the country I have been in since birth is difficult to assimilate.
when I listen to people like you it does make me wonder how we can both be living on the same planet.
my main problem with brexit has been that T.May & the rest of the government /parliament are trying to appease all sides, but especially the remainers. The referendum was quite simple....we leave the EU. We joined it quite easily enough (at the 2nd time of asking) so we leave in the same way. There was always going to be tough decisions along the way, but you have to make them & move on. There has been too much fannying about. We should have told the EU our terms....paid them our exit fee & left.
To use the phrase 'people like you' in order to put me in a box is similar to the catch all phrase of 'foreigners' and 'immigrants'. You can describe me by what I have done (voted remain) but please don't use the 'people like you' phrase because in my view that is straying into a territory very close to that occupied by the racists.
You're a loon.
Feck me! A response from Sigmund Freud.
You're the one who brought up racism about a comment made from one middle aged white man, to another middle aged white man.
Its ok Stu, I can fight my own battles. I wasn't going to sink to the depths that some posters do by name calling just because I had the audacity to reply.
All I will say is that the remainers have won. After this weeks shenanigans there will be no hard brexit, no "no deal", but simply a very soft brexit. There is already a transition arrangement that means we will still be part of the EU until Jan 2021 but wont be able to have any say in any laws made after we leave in March 2019. We will have to pay £40bn & get nothing for it & will also be in some form of Customs Union because of Ireland. If you think this is what leaving the EU means then I don't suppose you've been divorced (twice) like I have.
I urge anyone who hasn't seen it to watch thurs nights episode of This Week. AC Greyling is frightening in his views on what should happen now & Andrew Neils questions to Liz & Michael & their answers at the end of the programmed summed it all up. Absolute farce.
The point is I didn't 'name call' you, I pushed back at your generalizing 'people like you' phrase aimed at me. Neither did I call you a racist.
Your assertion here that remain has won isn't evident in any way. In the vacuum of ideas from leavers the space is occupied by remain sceptics who are successful simply by asking brexiters awkward questions, as I ask you and others for a solution to the Irish Border. In the absence of knowing what to do with their victory brexiters are distracting everybody by obsessing about those who oppose them.
I too saw Grayling. In the programme I agreed with Kendall about no second referendum but also agree with Grayling that in a second referendum won by leave that should be that, because we have now had the debate that should have happened before the first vote.
By the way given your statements about it above, are you able to state your plan for the Irish border? I have asked you several times, is your response that it is somebody else's problem to solve, or that you don't have a clue?
You're right, I don't have a clue about solving the Irish border that will satisfy N Ireland, ROI, the EU, the IRA......
but I have a clue how to solve it from a UK prospective (ie, to fulfill the referendun & leave the EU & have control of our borders)....make sure there is a hard border between the 2. How do other countries such as Mecica, Canada, Argentina etc etc. I've never been to those countries so I truely don't know.
Just because that goes against the GFA is no relevance. The GFA will have to be re-visited & re-done.....just like all the other legislation that we are "bringing back under our control". If you feel that there is no answer then I would ask why was the Referendum ever conducted in the first place ?? Might as well have asked the country if we wanted to join the USA in that case.
There is no such word as can't.
Except that the Belfast Agreement is not just like all the other legislation that the UK is taking back under its control - because it is an international agreement.
The UK can ask the other signatories if they are will to revisit it and redo, but if they say no, that it is a hard won and worthwhile agreement, what then? The only option would be for the UK to abrogate the treaty.
And, just as with those other clauses on the ballot paper printed in invisible ink, you know the ones about the Single Market and Customs Union, I don't recall that tearing up the Good Friday Agreement was part and parcel of a Leave vote.
Capx fails to address that wherever goods are cheaper in one country than another due to tarriffs, there will be smuggling. Perhaps not a concern of UK under WTO rules but not for EU. Can anyone sell me a farm on the border that has a large barn?
Product/Food standards not important while we are aligned but doubt Ireland/EU want US chlorinated chicken.
Can't get my head round the rest.
We are not recruiting TSOs, Customs officers or many of the new consumer protection roles, lorry parking that will be needed when we leave the Customs Union. 10 months and counting. At least we are in control!
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
Do you know how absurdly you come across with this Golfie? "A couple of leavers" - the people at the very head of the campaign for goodness sake. They are their soundbites, not mine! Please show me the full context that they have been taken out of - I would be fascinated to see it.
They lied to get people to vote the way they wanted, just have the cojones to hold your hands up and admit that lies won the day, and that suits you just fine. Stop trying to worm your way out of it, it's undignified.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
I will post this again (5th time) for those quitters going on about Brexit meaning leaving the single market.
Perhaps it should be posted every day in the morning, a bit like "assembly" at school, so the same lie doesn't keep getting repeated (though it will be after half an hour
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
It's not just soundbites, it's the leave campaign talking whilst on the campaign trail. People voted based on those public statements. If they weren't meant to prove anything then they should never, ever have been said in public. They were said to confine those on the fence that leaving wasn't going to be scary or risky. They were lies that you and other leavers now want to disown and pretend were never said. They were said though, frequently and loudly and it's a disgrace these lies were allowed to go unchallenged at the time, and it's a disgrace you're looking to rewrite history now.
Reposting to fix the knock on effect of Golfie's broken quoting
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
Has he?
Reposting to fix the knock on effect of Golfie's broken quoting
yes, just post "soundbites" that in themselves don't prove anything. All taken out of context & simply shows that a couple of leavers think that we could follow the Norway model. By leaving the EU we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people. Michel Barnier has said this on numerous occaisons.
Do you know how absurdly you come across with this Golfie? "A couple of leavers" - the people at the very head of the campaign for goodness sake. They are their soundbites, not mine! Please show me the full context that they have been taken out of - I would be fascinated to see it.
They lied to get people to vote the way they wanted, just have the cojones to hold your hands up and admit that lies won the day, and that suits you just fine. Stop trying to worm your way out of it, it's undignified.
Reposting to fix the knock on effect of Golfie's broken quoting
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
I didn't vote for it, yet you want me to solve it?
The Irish border is a fulcrum of all the brexit supposed aspirations.
For a start leaving something assumes that henceforth there is over there, and over here and something in between to divide it. The implications of what happens when things are separate from there and here are vast. It impacts on the environment, people, movement, trade, security, laws, culture and behaviour.
On the Irish border separation is small, different currencies, and a few practices which mainly concern agriculture. Otherwise it is a quiet phenomenon not unlike going from London into Kent.
There is now to be a barrier something that as well as being physically impractical or staggeringly expensive, is in conflict with the GFA and has other political ripples, and is a staggeringly stupid thing to establish.
My solution is not to establish anything on the border whatsoever, and in terms of satisfying the majority legitimate vote I would interpret that vote to be for blue passports naturally, and for the UK to enact the controls of the movement of people it already can under EU arrangements. Then all the other EU stuff can continue as before such as regulatory alignment. To further satisfy the legitimate majority vote I would withdraw from all EU elections and governing and decision making structures so the UK can say it has left, but I would continue to have the UK abide by EU rules. Be a rule taker because it is of benefit, and not a rule maker because people want brexit. Everyone's a winner and it would of course be the brexit everybody voted for. Other interpretations are available. Thus I would have the delivered the brexit people voted for to use a Farage phrase. No vast costs, no shenanigans, no repatriations, no old Irish conflict coming back , no people's vote or second referendum, and the UK can trade around the world as it does now, we have plenty of stuff from all over the world in this country particularly Chinese manufactured goods, and China isn't in the EU. To sum up, use my plan to avoid an Irish border. Any better ideas?
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
wow. sheer arrogance.
No different to Brexiters saying we voted for a Hard Brexit, when all the evidence suggests we didn't!
If Harvey's can't know how can people on the other side of the fence who keep telling us what we voted for?
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Good for you but I very much suspect you are in a tiny, tiny majority that never moans about the policies and impacts of a party in government they never voted for.
I know I have. Vociferously...and also about the policies and actions of the party I did vote for too. You and others call it "whinging". I think it shows that I continue to be engaged and aware of what's going on and how this might affect us as a society. Tbh I envy yourself, being able to shrug your shoulders and ignore what's going on until you get an opportunity to vote again in a few years. Doesn't mean I haven't accepted the result (there's that Leaver anti-democracy line again) just that I don't like it nor do I have to.
And there's the difference isn't it? We arent going to get another vote in a few years, probably never in fact. So it's absolutely vital to the directuon this country is going for decades to come to get this right. And I see nothing whatsoever in the way our government is handling the process to suggest they are remotely competent to do this (and the performance of Labour on this has been abject too).
So it's entirely legitimate to question this process, to critically examine what's being proposed (or deliberatly ignored because it's too difficult) and to hold those responsible to account. That's democracy right there.
It might suit some to shrug their shoulders and ignore the mounting evidence that's staring them in the face that this is going to be a disaster/less than optimal outcome/whatever. And that's fine if it works for you because on this occasion you got something that you voted for, but it does not mean everyone should do the same does it?
No one has rewritten the rules either, with the exception of many Leavers who are now pushing an entirely different narrative than two years ago. The vote was to leave the EU. We are leaving the EU. Everything else about how that process is managed and delivered is up for debate, negotiation and agreement.
Again there's democracy in action but it's Leavers who don't want any examination of the process and are trying to choke it off with allegations of "whinging" or much worse if you don't blindly agree with them.
Lastly, I don't agree with everything @seth plum says and am more than capable of forming my own opinion rather than being a "loyal follower" thanks. But he is bang on the money in highlighting the Irish border issue as a microcosm of the complexity of the route you have chosen for the UK (and not me or him). It's totally fair game to ask those responsible for the policy how they see it working in practice isn't it, because they must have had some idea before they voted right?
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
wow. sheer arrogance.
The reasons why people voted Leave have been researched since and are for many different things and it's clear that there is no consensus for the hard Brexit that is being pushed by some (including yourself). That's the point being made I think. Nothing arrogant about that just fact.
Have you got a source for your earlier claim that Barnier has said multiple times that by leaving the EU, "... we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people." btw please?
As far as I'm concerned, the UK Government seems to believe that detailed legal relationships can be fudged, if only in the interests of self-preservation, but that they are alone in that stance.
Things cannot continue as they have been for much longer, the "put up or shut up" moment is inevitable, and needs to happen sooner rather than later.
As far as I'm concerned, the UK Government seems to believe that detailed legal relationships can be fudged, if only in the interests of self-preservation, but that they are alone in that stance.
Things cannot continue as they have been for much longer, the "put up or shut up" moment is inevitable, and needs to happen sooner rather than later.
We are indeed fast approaching the end of the window when negotiations must be finalised. The EEA amendment received a grand total of 126 votes so that option is dead in the water. It is and has always been viewed as a "remoaner's" charter. Having said that, I believe strongly that EEA membership will look much more attractive after we leave. Trouble is that we are in a weaker position next April.
What we have now is the very real prospect of a split in the Tories. Their remain element compromised and were then stabbed in the back - "unforgivable" says Soubry. Will they suck it up at the vote next week.
Or will Parliament agree to take back control to avoid a no deal Brexit? Nothing has changed this year. Except we now have clarity around how this might play out. And another remain Labour MP was elected last Thursday with Lib Dems knocking out the Tories.
In just a few weeks we will have the Q2 GDP numbers. That will complete two years since the referendum. For sure these will be span in different ways but it will be very clear that there's no Brexit dividend for the NHS.
Right. So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border. In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
I voted to leave the EU. For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
Many people voted Brexit for immigration reasons without appreciáting that our (non-EU) laws were more lenient than the rest of Europe. Some voted against the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. Others voted on the Leave campaign premise that we weren't leaving the Customs Union. Some the £350m NHS boost. That the 37% Brexiters voted for No Deal is laughable.
so you are a mind reader now are you ?? you know excatly how & why 18.2 million people voted.
wow. sheer arrogance.
Their all mind readers and fortune tellers here golfie. ..ask them for the lottery results tonight...preferably before the draw.
Comments
It is, in effect, an argument for Ireland and the EU coming up with a solution to the UK's problem, and glosses over the fact that the EU Single Market is determinedly guarded to protect the interests of its members.
It makes heroic assumptions about the nature of cross border trade (a significant proportion of which is agricultural or agribusiness in nature) and glosses over the needs of both the EU and UK to maintain stringent controls in these areas (with particularly limited concern for what the impact would be of divergence, following the UK signing trade deals of its own).
As with far too much of the internal UK discussions, it concentrates on tariffs, without adequate consideration of non-tariff barriers.
Mention is made of Australian and Canadian agricultural produce entering the EU, but this happens at a limited number of entry ports and only for certain types of produce (the FTAs require Canada and Australia to act rigorously to prevent entry of produce that the EU bans), not like the number of border crossings here.
And, to be frank, arguing that SME's could be, in some way, exempted from the requirements to meet both the tariff and the regulatory standards needed for cross border trade (other than some sort of quarterly reporting) is just bonkers - the author's attempt to concentrate on larger businesses is to simply misunderstand the nature of cross-border trade in Ireland, it's really not equivalent to ships unloading whole container loads of goods at Felixstowe (there are full lorries, tankers, part loads, van loads and, even, where there are differences in taxation, car loads, for example of booze, that need to be on the HMRC radar). It is worth pointing out that, although mention is made of BIPS, quoted below, there is no suggestion of how, or how many would have to be introduced in Ireland, they are not seamless, they are clearly new infrastructure and will have a significant impact on what is now an all Ireland market, which is generally described by those in the business as frictionless now in Ireland.
The only goods that are required to go through specific entry points are animals and animal products, which must pass through ports/crossings with border inspection posts (BIPS) where veterinary checks can be done by accredited handlers and vets. It is important to point out that meat and animal trade within member states is not completely frictionless now, due to the sensitivity of health and safety concerns, and can only be done between accredited operators, accompanied by regulatory certifications.
The author suggests that businesses of 50 people or less could be removed from the the standard border processes - a sole trader importing goods that do not meet the regulatory standards is undermining the integrity of the EU's Single Market/regulatory space, the author is asking Ireland and the EU to connive with this, to suit the UK. I'm not an EU Commission negotiator, but I can see a situation where they may baulk at such a suggestion.
Equally, the idea that a GATT exemption for frontier trade will cover Northern Ireland as a whole is seeking to interpret the rules in (as a Belgian might say) a "unique" way; and I sincerely doubt that the WTO would accept such a thing
The article is effectively an argument that fails to recognise that the EU has its own legitimate concerns (including those of Ireland), it is predicated on an assumption that the only need is to come up with a solution that suits the UK. It is the political wish list of a pro-hard Brexit campaigner, which fails to engage with the need of the EU, if there is to be an agreement, to have some kind of legal certainty about what they are being asked to sign up to.
I'm not saying that Buzzfeed is any better than any other website, but some may find this of interest: https://buzzfeed.com/alexspence/steve-baker-brexit-meetings-shanker-singham?utm_term=.lh4eB5lJe#.pibZ1oQrZ
The UK can ask the other signatories if they are will to revisit it and redo, but if they say no, that it is a hard won and worthwhile agreement, what then? The only option would be for the UK to abrogate the treaty.
And, just as with those other clauses on the ballot paper printed in invisible ink, you know the ones about the Single Market and Customs Union, I don't recall that tearing up the Good Friday Agreement was part and parcel of a Leave vote.
Product/Food standards not important while we are aligned but doubt Ireland/EU want US chlorinated chicken.
Can't get my head round the rest.
We are not recruiting TSOs, Customs officers or many of the new consumer protection roles, lorry parking that will be needed when we leave the Customs Union. 10 months and counting. At least we are in control!
So it still looks as if there is no practical and workable solution to the Irish border.
In not suggesting a border, brexiteers themselves seem to be cancelling brexit without any remain supporters having to do anything.
For all of my adult life I have had to accept the consequent actions from how the British people have voted when I didn't necessarily agree with the party chosen and their politics. First past the post and all that!! I didn't whinge I accepted this was our form of democracy. It has its weaknesses but many countries and peoples look to us for our sense of law and order and civility.
Now we have the EU referendum and the rules are rewritten.
We have Seth banging on incessantly about the Irish border and the solution us individual leave voters must have to solve this delicate situation.
Why is this the case? I haven't said in every general election since 1979 right you guys sort out every aspect of my life to my satisfaction as I didn't vote for you. Utter bollocks.
So Seth you have banged on about this and have several loyal followers but what's your solution to satisfy and respect the majority legitimate vote cast.
wow. sheer arrogance.
The Irish border is a fulcrum of all the brexit supposed aspirations.
For a start leaving something assumes that henceforth there is over there, and over here and something in between to divide it.
The implications of what happens when things are separate from there and here are vast. It impacts on the environment, people, movement, trade, security, laws, culture and behaviour.
On the Irish border separation is small, different currencies, and a few practices which mainly concern agriculture. Otherwise it is a quiet phenomenon not unlike going from London into Kent.
There is now to be a barrier something that as well as being physically impractical or staggeringly expensive, is in conflict with the GFA and has other political ripples, and is a staggeringly stupid thing to establish.
My solution is not to establish anything on the border whatsoever, and in terms of satisfying the majority legitimate vote I would interpret that vote to be for blue passports naturally, and for the UK to enact the controls of the movement of people it already can under EU arrangements. Then all the other EU stuff can continue as before such as regulatory alignment.
To further satisfy the legitimate majority vote I would withdraw from all EU elections and governing and decision making structures so the UK can say it has left, but I would continue to have the UK abide by EU rules. Be a rule taker because it is of benefit, and not a rule maker because people want brexit. Everyone's a winner and it would of course be the brexit everybody voted for.
Other interpretations are available.
Thus I would have the delivered the brexit people voted for to use a Farage phrase. No vast costs, no shenanigans, no repatriations, no old Irish conflict coming back , no people's vote or second referendum, and the UK can trade around the world as it does now, we have plenty of stuff from all over the world in this country particularly Chinese manufactured goods, and China isn't in the EU.
To sum up, use my plan to avoid an Irish border.
Any better ideas?
If Harvey's can't know how can people on the other side of the fence who keep telling us what we voted for?
I know I have. Vociferously...and also about the policies and actions of the party I did vote for too. You and others call it "whinging". I think it shows that I continue to be engaged and aware of what's going on and how this might affect us as a society. Tbh I envy yourself, being able to shrug your shoulders and ignore what's going on until you get an opportunity to vote again in a few years. Doesn't mean I haven't accepted the result (there's that Leaver anti-democracy line again) just that I don't like it nor do I have to.
And there's the difference isn't it? We arent going to get another vote in a few years, probably never in fact. So it's absolutely vital to the directuon this country is going for decades to come to get this right. And I see nothing whatsoever in the way our government is handling the process to suggest they are remotely competent to do this (and the performance of Labour on this has been abject too).
So it's entirely legitimate to question this process, to critically examine what's being proposed (or deliberatly ignored because it's too difficult) and to hold those responsible to account. That's democracy right there.
It might suit some to shrug their shoulders and ignore the mounting evidence that's staring them in the face that this is going to be a disaster/less than optimal outcome/whatever. And that's fine if it works for you because on this occasion you got something that you voted for, but it does not mean everyone should do the same does it?
No one has rewritten the rules either, with the exception of many Leavers who are now pushing an entirely different narrative than two years ago. The vote was to leave the EU. We are leaving the EU. Everything else about how that process is managed and delivered is up for debate, negotiation and agreement.
Again there's democracy in action but it's Leavers who don't want any examination of the process and are trying to choke it off with allegations of "whinging" or much worse if you don't blindly agree with them.
Lastly, I don't agree with everything @seth plum says and am more than capable of forming my own opinion rather than being a "loyal follower" thanks. But he is bang on the money in highlighting the Irish border issue as a microcosm of the complexity of the route you have chosen for the UK (and not me or him). It's totally fair game to ask those responsible for the policy how they see it working in practice isn't it, because they must have had some idea before they voted right?
Have you got a source for your earlier claim that Barnier has said multiple times that by leaving the EU, "... we HAVE to leave the single market / free movement of trade & people." btw please?
As far as I'm concerned, the UK Government seems to believe that detailed legal relationships can be fudged, if only in the interests of self-preservation, but that they are alone in that stance.
Things cannot continue as they have been for much longer, the "put up or shut up" moment is inevitable, and needs to happen sooner rather than later.
What we have now is the very real prospect of a split in the Tories. Their remain element compromised and were then stabbed in the back - "unforgivable" says Soubry. Will they suck it up at the vote next week.
Or will Parliament agree to take back control to avoid a no deal Brexit? Nothing has changed this year. Except we now have clarity around how this might play out. And another remain Labour MP was elected last Thursday with Lib Dems knocking out the Tories.
In just a few weeks we will have the Q2 GDP numbers. That will complete two years since the referendum. For sure these will be span in different ways but it will be very clear that there's no Brexit dividend for the NHS.