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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • McBobbin said:

    Wasn't farage on the fishing committee but never turned up or voted?

    Yes, he phoned central office for advice and was told to hold on the line.
  • Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
  • Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
    Seriously, what are the issues - can anyone give a quick but meaningful précis?
  • seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
    In the EU our fishing waters are open to EU countries. If we had a proper leave then they would not be. Under the transition they still are. No confusion on my part. Which side are you on, UK fishermen or EU fishermen?
  • Southbank said:

    seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
    In the EU our fishing waters are open to EU countries. If we had a proper leave then they would not be. Under the transition they still are. No confusion on my part. Which side are you on, UK fishermen or EU fishermen?
    I am on the side of the millions of UK workers and their families whose livelihoods will be catastrophically impacted by the damage that Brexit will bring to virtually every UK industry.

    Meanwhile, we all have to suffer the indignity of being treated like stupid uninformed children by the likes of those odious creeps Davis and Fox as they trot out their nonsense about all these wonderful Mickey Mouse trade deals with Mickey Mouse countries.

    But, Putin has decided that Brexit is in the best interests of Russia so Brexit we will have!
  • edited March 2018
    Stig said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
    Seriously, what are the issues - can anyone give a quick but meaningful précis?
    Good explanation here. Brexit won’t fix the problems of British fishing industry. In fact it will make it worse.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/21/jacob-rees-mogg-fishing-communities-hard-brexit
  • edited March 2018

    Edited
    See above
  • 75% of the fish caught by British boats is exported out to the EU. But The Leave elite doesn’t actually give a flying one about that
  • Southbank said:

    seth plum said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.
    In the EU our fishing waters are open to EU countries. If we had a proper leave then they would not be. Under the transition they still are. No confusion on my part. Which side are you on, UK fishermen or EU fishermen?
    To be honest I'm on the side of the fish. I don't want them going the same way as the Rhino population.
  • Wtf is all this fish dumping nonsense all about then???

    I think it was the swearing and aggression?
    You may may be slightly to the right @A-R-T-H-U-R but you are always quick with the humour.
    Thank you, sir.
    I like to think of myself as straight down the middle, though on CL I can see how that is viewed as dressing to the right.
    I'll have a word with my tailor.
    But I am the one who is straight down the middle!
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  • Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.

    In the EU our fishing waters are open to EU countries. If we had a proper leave then they would not be. Under the transition they still are. No confusion on my part. Which side are you on, UK fishermen or EU fishermen?
    I'd like to be of some assistance, if I may...

    The negotiators representing the EU27 and Her Majesty's Government have been working away like busy bees to provide a text that, provided agreement can be found for the outstanding issues, and the various authorities that they are seeking to negotiate in behalf of agree, will allow for a transitional period (up to the end of the current fiscal round - so that the financial commitments that the UK had made could be honoured and the UK could have most, if not all, of the benefits that would be derived from those commitments) in which a future Free Trade Agreement may be scoped in more detail (the chances of one being negotiated and ratified within that time are, like my charm and sophistication, virtually non-existent).

    The transition that still has to be agreed ensures that the least possible amount of disruption occurs, for both sides, until some form of agreement encompassing future relations can be agreed.

    The key advantage of any transitional period is that it allows everyone the opportunity for reduced disruption and extra time to make preparations (although, given the current state of preparation within the UK, this may ensure that the country is just unready, as opposed to mind-bogglingly unprepared for the most basic requirements of regulatory divergence).

    The only efficient way to have a transitional period is to base it on the status quo ante, even though the UK will not be a member of the EU. Any other option would require negotiation of a trade agreement. As I may have mentioned, a mere handful of times over the last couple of years on various Brexit threads, any trade negotiations will take years (and there is a minor problem that the EU rules - have I ever mentioned that the EU is a rules based organisation? - preclude trade negotiations with a member state, whilst it remains a member state).

    The continuation of the status quo will relate to areas of interaction between the UK and EU27, such as the Single Market and, indeed, the CFP rules.

    Without a transition agreement (even if both sides are happy to agree a deal), the UK can only have a disorderly departure from the EU.

    I think Brexit is self harm, and I have no time for the leading lights of this Government, but the attempt to agree terms for a transition is (reasonably impressively) both an essential requirement if there are to be any trade benefits from Brexit and, because there are still areas of disagreement, an ongoing process (with no guarantee of success).

    So, I would not describe those seeking to moderate potential damage to the UK economy as Quislings.

    But, @Southbank, you can reassure yourself that there are still significant hurdles before any Withdrawal or Transition agreements will be ratified (after all, "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"), so you may find that the UK will find itself "taking back control" (with all three fishery patrol vessels) of its fisheries on 30 March next year, but without any deals with the EU.

    It may make you happy, but it terrifies me.
    Perhaps the fish is a bit of a red herring (I have my coat on already!)

    Perhaps the transition is the status quo (without voting and influence) and pushes the cliff edge from 12 months to 33 months time.

    And perhaps a full on FTA with the EU will take five-seven years so the answer is to extend the transition period again...and again...and...

    After all, is any government really going to be stupid enough to leave a Customs Union and Single Market where 60% of our imports and exports flow? Thus causing a 5-8% drop in GDP and tax revenues. And all based on Liam Fox and a potential trade policy with Trump, the Saudis and... nope everybody else has an FTA with the EU.

    Hotel California after all with damage limitation meaning that we (the UK) hold the tension until we all move on politically. Not just my thoughts but those of the lead economist in the Times today.
  • Wtf is all this fish dumping nonsense all about then???

    I think it was the swearing and aggression?
    You may may be slightly to the right @A-R-T-H-U-R but you are always quick with the humour.
    Thank you, sir.
    I like to think of myself as straight down the middle, though on CL I can see how that is viewed as dressing to the right.
    I'll have a word with my tailor.
    But I am the one who is straight down the middle!
    Perhaps the only way to sort this out is via, I don't know, a referendum of some kind?
    I've got a bus, if you can bring Google.....
  • Wtf is all this fish dumping nonsense all about then???

    I think it was the swearing and aggression?
    You may may be slightly to the right @A-R-T-H-U-R but you are always quick with the humour.
    Thank you, sir.
    I like to think of myself as straight down the middle, though on CL I can see how that is viewed as dressing to the right.
    I'll have a word with my tailor.
    But I am the one who is straight down the middle!
    Perhaps the only way to sort this out is via, I don't know, a referendum of some kind?
    I've got a bus, if you can bring Google.....
    I wouldn't trust the people who would vote for you to know what they are voting for.
  • edited March 2018

    Wtf is all this fish dumping nonsense all about then???

    I think it was the swearing and aggression?
    You may may be slightly to the right @A-R-T-H-U-R but you are always quick with the humour.
    Thank you, sir.
    I like to think of myself as straight down the middle, though on CL I can see how that is viewed as dressing to the right.
    I'll have a word with my tailor.
    But I am the one who is straight down the middle!
    Perhaps the only way to sort this out is via, I don't know, a referendum of some kind?
    I've got a bus, if you can bring Google.....
    I wouldn't trust the people who would vote for you to know what they are voting for.
    Listen, liar, I HAVE A BUS, and I only need a few dozen wrinklies and 43% of the vote and I am there.

    Where exactly, I don't exactly know yet.

    But something will work itself out.

    Also there might be a thorny border issue, but only one person is really bothered about that, really. So it's all good.
  • Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry by Quisling Tory Remainer Government. You Remainers must be delighted.

    Southbank said:

    Southbank said:

    UK fishermen hung out to dry as a result of a dunderheaded brexit vote. You brexiters must be confused.

    In the EU our fishing waters are open to EU countries. If we had a proper leave then they would not be. Under the transition they still are. No confusion on my part. Which side are you on, UK fishermen or EU fishermen?
    I'd like to be of some assistance, if I may...

    The negotiators representing the EU27 and Her Majesty's Government have been working away like busy bees to provide a text that, provided agreement can be found for the outstanding issues, and the various authorities that they are seeking to negotiate in behalf of agree, will allow for a transitional period (up to the end of the current fiscal round - so that the financial commitments that the UK had made could be honoured and the UK could have most, if not all, of the benefits that would be derived from those commitments) in which a future Free Trade Agreement may be scoped in more detail (the chances of one being negotiated and ratified within that time are, like my charm and sophistication, virtually non-existent).

    The transition that still has to be agreed ensures that the least possible amount of disruption occurs, for both sides, until some form of agreement encompassing future relations can be agreed.

    The key advantage of any transitional period is that it allows everyone the opportunity for reduced disruption and extra time to make preparations (although, given the current state of preparation within the UK, this may ensure that the country is just unready, as opposed to mind-bogglingly unprepared for the most basic requirements of regulatory divergence).

    The only efficient way to have a transitional period is to base it on the status quo ante, even though the UK will not be a member of the EU. Any other option would require negotiation of a trade agreement. As I may have mentioned, a mere handful of times over the last couple of years on various Brexit threads, any trade negotiations will take years (and there is a minor problem that the EU rules - have I ever mentioned that the EU is a rules based organisation? - preclude trade negotiations with a member state, whilst it remains a member state).

    The continuation of the status quo will relate to areas of interaction between the UK and EU27, such as the Single Market and, indeed, the CFP rules.

    Without a transition agreement (even if both sides are happy to agree a deal), the UK can only have a disorderly departure from the EU.

    I think Brexit is self harm, and I have no time for the leading lights of this Government, but the attempt to agree terms for a transition is (reasonably impressively) both an essential requirement if there are to be any trade benefits from Brexit and, because there are still areas of disagreement, an ongoing process (with no guarantee of success).

    So, I would not describe those seeking to moderate potential damage to the UK economy as Quislings.

    But, @Southbank, you can reassure yourself that there are still significant hurdles before any Withdrawal or Transition agreements will be ratified (after all, "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed"), so you may find that the UK will find itself "taking back control" (with all three fishery patrol vessels) of its fisheries on 30 March next year, but without any deals with the EU.

    It may make you happy, but it terrifies me.
    Perhaps the fish is a bit of a red herring (I have my coat on already!)

    Perhaps the transition is the status quo (without voting and influence) and pushes the cliff edge from 12 months to 33 months time.

    And perhaps a full on FTA with the EU will take five-seven years so the answer is to extend the transition period again...and again...and...

    After all, is any government really going to be stupid enough to leave a Customs Union and Single Market where 60% of our imports and exports flow? Thus causing a 5-8% drop in GDP and tax revenues. And all based on Liam Fox and a potential trade policy with Trump, the Saudis and... nope everybody else has an FTA with the EU.

    Hotel California after all with damage limitation meaning that we (the UK) hold the tension until we all move on politically. Not just my thoughts but those of the lead economist in the Times today.
    I would expect that (provided both sides can agree, and it meets WTO rules) the transition period would allow for a bare bones/interim FTA, based on CETA, to be put in place. But not, in fairness, much else.

    I really don't know whether there would be sufficient public support, and there would need to be a clear indication of such support, beforehand, to allow for the Hotel California scenario you suggest.
  • In Brexit Give-and-Take, Britain Gives and the E.U. Takes https://nyti.ms/2u85Asp
  • In Brexit Give-and-Take, Britain Gives and the E.U. Takes https://nyti.ms/2u85Asp

    A very good analysis of the current situation. Well worth a read.
  • edited March 2018
    This is the stuff the Leavers on here wanted and celebrate.

    Click the tweet and read the thread

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  • Chaz Hill said:

    cabbles said:

    The blue passports to be made by a Franco/Dutch company. Fucking hilarious

    Control taken.

    Johnny Foreigner staying over there stealing our jobs :neutral:
    I just heard an interview with the boss of the Gateshead company which lost the tender, and has made the current passports for the last ten years. I am not sure whether to be sympathetic or not. He conceded that he lost the tender on price. I must admit that I am sceptical of the competence of public bodies to run "free and fair" business tenders, with the Olympic Stadium never far from my thoughts.

    He is aggrieved that his company has done this work for ten years and therefore knows what it is doing. But does that knowledge give him a competitive advantage? If so, was the tender not set up to make that an important criterion? He manifestly failed to make such a case. As he was asked, isn't this just an example of the sort of international business catfight that Global Britain is going to face?

  • edited March 2018
    Global competition happens many if not most areas, even my area of law can be done throughout Europe. No one should be surprised. But you'd think someone would have thought "well how will this look"? When the blue passports, beloved by so many leavers, when awarding the tender to people outside the UK.

    We are really bad at getting control aren't we?
  • Chaz Hill said:

    cabbles said:

    The blue passports to be made by a Franco/Dutch company. Fucking hilarious

    Control taken.

    Johnny Foreigner staying over there stealing our jobs :neutral:
    I just heard an interview with the boss of the Gateshead company which lost the tender, and has made the current passports for the last ten years. I am not sure whether to be sympathetic or not. He conceded that he lost the tender on price. I must admit that I am sceptical of the competence of public bodies to run "free and fair" business tenders, with the Olympic Stadium never far from my thoughts.

    He is aggrieved that his company has done this work for ten years and therefore knows what it is doing. But does that knowledge give him a competitive advantage? If so, was the tender not set up to make that an important criterion? He manifestly failed to make such a case. As he was asked, isn't this just an example of the sort of international business catfight that Global Britain is going to face?

    Just heard it as well and yes if we are going to put everything out to the cheapest bid then this is what happens but how much will we lose by 50 or so (a guess) people losing their jobs in a deprived part of the country. They will no doubt start getting benefits, stop paying taxes, stop spending their wages locally, start having the attendant ill health and social exclusion that comes with unemployment.

    Isn't that why we are in this Brexit mess in the first place? Shut down a load of industries because we can get things cheaper elsewhere, not replace the jobs, write off the people (see how many people were encouraged to sign on 'the sick' under Thatcher), overheat the South East. The rump of the country then becomes susceptible to Farage and the far right fluttering its eyelids at it and votes for Brexit.
  • Wtf is all this fish dumping nonsense all about then???

    I think it was the swearing and aggression?
    You may may be slightly to the right @A-R-T-H-U-R but you are always quick with the humour.
    Thank you, sir.
    I like to think of myself as straight down the middle, though on CL I can see how that is viewed as dressing to the right.
    I'll have a word with my tailor.
    But I am the one who is straight down the middle!
    Perhaps the only way to sort this out is via, I don't know, a referendum of some kind?
    I've got a bus, if you can bring Google.....
    I wouldn't trust the people who would vote for you to know what they are voting for.
    Listen, liar, I HAVE A BUS, and I only need a few dozen wrinklies and 43% of the vote and I am there.

    Where exactly, I don't exactly know yet.

    But something will work itself out.

    Also there might be a thorny border issue, but only one person is really bothered about that, really. So it's all good.
    OK you can have the old and the thick. I will have the young and the intelligent.

    I am working on this social media campaign with some bloke who has just become unexpectedly available, he is an old Etonian and knows spies and everything.
  • Brexiters go on about brexit meaning cheaper food, clothing and footwear. Mogg has mentioned it a lot when wearing his Saville Row clothes and hand made shoes whilst dining at the Ritz.
    It all sounds like pronouncements towards the great unwashed.
    It will be sweatshop shoes and clothes and chlorinated deceased hens for 'the mob'. Not jobs in the UK...and now foreign British passports.
    As each day passes Lord Buckethead edges closer to immortality.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!