Raises some good points, especially the need for remain to find a new message. I think if it was run again tomorrow remain would shade victory (maybe 52:48 the other way), however really, with everything that has happened since article 50 was triggered it should be a lot more in favour of remain.
Get Farage and what remains of the leave campaign back on the anti establishment message and it shifts back to leave, without doubt.
There's no 'liberal elite' plot to undermine brexit, clearly, the leavers that are in charge of brexit are screwing it up by themselves. What there is is a political class bereft of ideas and absolutely no platform on which to communicate with the public, until that changes - we will be subject to the whim of populism.
I actually agree on the sentiment against career politicians. I have met a fair few of what is probably the next generation of career politicians and it's not a pretty sight, both sides of the aisle.
I agree with all that, but the framing of a Remain message - in any EU country - is so challenging in this age of degraded political discussion in the media. I can easily see how Remain went wrong. I still struggle to personally come up with something snappy in the pub that matches empty bollocks like "Take back control". I can however easily take down the "Take back control" argument.
But I am sure better political minds are working on this as we speak.
For me it underlines the crass stupidity of the timing of May triggering Article 50. It will go down in history as one of the most colossal political mistakes of recent times.
Add to that the crass arrogance of calling an election last year.
For me it underlines the crass stupidity of the timing of May triggering Article 50. It will go down in history as one of the most colossal political mistakes of recent times.
Add to that the crass arrogance of calling an election last year.
All part of the same desire to put the interests of the Tory Party before the interests of the country IMO.
There was no need to launch the whole fiasco we are seeing unfold before us in March. It was due to an artificial deadline she set for herself in order to appease the rabid Leavers in her party and the papers. We we're clearly totally unprepared; in terms of our analysis of what needed to be done, what our future position will be and the whole planning and resourcing of how we will achieve any of this. It's like setting off to climb a mountain in a pair of espadrilles because the bit at the bottom has half a dozen concrete steps and...you know...how hard can it be?
So March'17 comes round and even though the mountain's now covered in snow, and every expert is telling them not to do it and they must have known we weren't anything like being prepared for it, they went ahead anyway.
I'm convinced this was because they thought that by doing so then, not only would she get the press off her back, but she'd have the bonus that she would enjoy a positive response as a result in the election she was always going to call to take advantage of Corbyn's perceived weakness at the time.
They've never done anything different than put the party first IMO.
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
Not sure of your evidence for that, but anyway you are ignoring the fact that May is being run by the Cartoon Aristocrat, and Bernard Jenkin (the single issue permanent backbencher), and until recently Daniel Hannan.
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
I think this is called 'getting your excuses in early'. Bit like when Redknapp starts talking about the squad being "...dahn to the bare bones" in September and you know he's assembled a crap team that is in trouble.
Of course, it's not the fault of Brexiters that they voted for something complete unworkable and damaging, it's the fault of the Remainers that can't make it work.
Bit like breaking a priceless vase into 1000 pieces then whinging that the curator cannot piece it back together perfectly.
No wonder not a single prominent Brexiter has stepped up to actually take responsibility for delivering Brexit. Davis doesn't count because he obviously was never a true believer in the first place and has done everything he can short of exposing himself to get the sack.
What I can’t understand is the absolute power a few hard line brexiters in the Tory party hold over her. You’ve got a whole swarm of remain and leave voters who want the best possible deal and who understand its going to be give an led take, and you have these hard line nuts like Johnson and Rees Mogg and Redwood who seem to have the rest of them (Davis, Hammond and May etc) by the balls.
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
Not sure of your evidence for that, but anyway you are ignoring the fact that May is being run by the Cartoon Aristocrat, and Bernard Jenkin (the single issue permanent backbencher), and until recently Daniel Hannan.
What I can’t understand is the absolute power a few hard line brexiters in the Tory party hold over her. You’ve got a whole swarm of remain and leave voters who want the best possible deal and who understand its going to be give an led take, and you have these hard line nuts like Johnson and Rees Mogg and Redwood who seem to have the rest of them (Davis, Hammond and May etc) by the balls.
I don’t get it.
It's because those handful of headline Brexiters are in thrall with the tabloids and the oligarchs who fund the Tory party and form the fourth estate that are the real power in this country and are formed more or less exclusively of Brexiters.
No doubt they have something on May which is why so she is so paralysed. Fields of wheat are clearly the least of her problems.
It's because those handful of headline Brexiters are in thrall with the tabloids and the oligarchs who fund the Tory party and form the fourth estate that are the real power in this country and are formed more or less exclusively of Brexiters.
No doubt they have something on May which is why so she is so paralysed. Fields of wheat are clearly the least of her problems.
They don't need anything on May particularly, she is desperate to hold onto power, and they presumably hold to power to at the very least trigger a leadership battle that she would struggle to win.
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
I think this is called 'getting your excuses in early'. Bit like when Redknapp starts talking about the squad being "...dahn to the bare bones" in September and you know he's assembled a crap team that is in trouble.
Except it is true in this case. You Remainers should be taking comfort from the fact that Remainers are running the Government, have a majority in Parliament, have the leaders of all the main political parties and a majority in the unelected House of Lords. So why so disgruntled?
"David Davis has been sidelined in Brexit negotiations, with Theresa May increasingly relying on a former aide to the Brexit Secretary to lead talks instead."
So your link in fact confirms that May isn't leading talks but someone else is.
Maybe next time you state facts, perhaps state the facts that are actually true?
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
I think this is called 'getting your excuses in early'. Bit like when Redknapp starts talking about the squad being "...dahn to the bare bones" in September and you know he's assembled a crap team that is in trouble.
Except it is true in this case. You Remainers should be taking comfort from the fact that Remainers are running the Government, have a majority in Parliament, have the leaders of all the main political parties and a majority in the unelected House of Lords. So why so disgruntled?
Because not a single Remainer is willing or in a position to step up and actually follow what was promised in the "winning" campaign i.e. staying in the CU/SM and the other promises being broken throughout the last 18 months.
"David Davis has been sidelined in Brexit negotiations, with Theresa May increasingly relying on a former aide to the Brexit Secretary to lead talks instead."
So your link in fact confirms that May isn't leading talks but someone else is.
Maybe next time you state facts, perhaps state the facts that are actually true?
If you read it carefully you will see Robbins reports directly to May and was brought in to give her control over the negotuations
It's the first sentence. If May was leading the negotiations, it would say she was leading the negotiations. But it says someone else is leading the negotiations. Because May is weak and powerless and has absolutely zero authority within her own party. This surely isn't that difficult to grasp, even for you.
So what are Mssrs Davis, Fox and Johnson up to then?
They are definitely leavers and one of them is secretary of state for Exiting the EU!
They do not run the government. The negotiation is now run directly by May, with Davis as figurehead.
I think this is called 'getting your excuses in early'. Bit like when Redknapp starts talking about the squad being "...dahn to the bare bones" in September and you know he's assembled a crap team that is in trouble.
Except it is true in this case. You Remainers should be taking comfort from the fact that Remainers are running the Government, have a majority in Parliament, have the leaders of all the main political parties and a majority in the unelected House of Lords. So why so disgruntled?
1. It's not true and 2. I take no comfort from the fact that so much of all our futures depends on the performance of someone described, by a "career psychopathic" yet of the same thinking as being, "...as thick as mince and lazy as a toad".
I want a referendum about whether we should have any more referenda - just like the Swiss did a few decades back. Problem would be if it was 52-48 either way, folk would say it doesn't count. Then they would want to add-in the people who couldn't be bothered to vote (or had no preference) and say it wasn't representative of the population.
Any referendum we have in the future could be questioned in this way, even a referendum about how we should view the result of a referendum.
This is what would make the UK a laughing stock - not leaving the EU, and as for the Germans thinking we are mad, they are the guys that tried to exterminate all foreigners in their country and then a generation later invited foreigners to come and live there. Now, that is real madness.
I think you need to withdraw that remark if you want to even have the slightest credibility in the future.
The people they killed, be they homosexual, disabled, trade unionists, Jewish, socialists or Gypsy were all very much citizens of that country and most were born in Germany. The foreigners they killed all lived in the countries they invaded although they did of course justify the early invasions by saying that the countries were part of a greater Germany.
When it comes to withdrawing remarks, I've got loads to do (mostly about KAG and Dasilva) that are a long way in front of anything in the above. As for credibility - who gives a toss in an online football forum ?
I notice there's no comment on the crazy idea about referenda from remainers though, other than NORN, and I would ask who is going to decide what the "winning line" looks like in a referendum - because I object and want a vote on that too
I was being diplomatic when I used they word "credibility", what I should have said was "to not be considered a complete twat".
Unnecessary. Please withdraw that insult.
Unfortunately, I think his comment is entirely valid, because you have stubbornly refused to admit your slur on modern Germans (several of whom I can count as good friends) itself needed to be withdrawn.
I want a referendum about whether we should have any more referenda - just like the Swiss did a few decades back. Problem would be if it was 52-48 either way, folk would say it doesn't count. Then they would want to add-in the people who couldn't be bothered to vote (or had no preference) and say it wasn't representative of the population.
Any referendum we have in the future could be questioned in this way, even a referendum about how we should view the result of a referendum.
This is what would make the UK a laughing stock - not leaving the EU, and as for the Germans thinking we are mad, they are the guys that tried to exterminate all foreigners in their country and then a generation later invited foreigners to come and live there. Now, that is real madness.
I think you need to withdraw that remark if you want to even have the slightest credibility in the future.
The people they killed, be they homosexual, disabled, trade unionists, Jewish, socialists or Gypsy were all very much citizens of that country and most were born in Germany. The foreigners they killed all lived in the countries they invaded although they did of course justify the early invasions by saying that the countries were part of a greater Germany.
When it comes to withdrawing remarks, I've got loads to do (mostly about KAG and Dasilva) that are a long way in front of anything in the above. As for credibility - who gives a toss in an online football forum ?
I notice there's no comment on the crazy idea about referenda from remainers though, other than NORN, and I would ask who is going to decide what the "winning line" looks like in a referendum - because I object and want a vote on that too
I was being diplomatic when I used they word "credibility", what I should have said was "to not be considered a complete twat".
Unnecessary. Please withdraw that insult.
Unfortunately, I think his comment is entirely valid, because you have stubbornly refused to admit your slur on modern Germans (several of whom I can count as good friends) itself needed to be withdrawn.
I want a referendum about whether we should have any more referenda - just like the Swiss did a few decades back. Problem would be if it was 52-48 either way, folk would say it doesn't count. Then they would want to add-in the people who couldn't be bothered to vote (or had no preference) and say it wasn't representative of the population.
Any referendum we have in the future could be questioned in this way, even a referendum about how we should view the result of a referendum.
This is what would make the UK a laughing stock - not leaving the EU, and as for the Germans thinking we are mad, they are the guys that tried to exterminate all foreigners in their country and then a generation later invited foreigners to come and live there. Now, that is real madness.
I think you need to withdraw that remark if you want to even have the slightest credibility in the future.
The people they killed, be they homosexual, disabled, trade unionists, Jewish, socialists or Gypsy were all very much citizens of that country and most were born in Germany. The foreigners they killed all lived in the countries they invaded although they did of course justify the early invasions by saying that the countries were part of a greater Germany.
When it comes to withdrawing remarks, I've got loads to do (mostly about KAG and Dasilva) that are a long way in front of anything in the above. As for credibility - who gives a toss in an online football forum ?
I notice there's no comment on the crazy idea about referenda from remainers though, other than NORN, and I would ask who is going to decide what the "winning line" looks like in a referendum - because I object and want a vote on that too
I was being diplomatic when I used they word "credibility", what I should have said was "to not be considered a complete twat".
Unnecessary. Please withdraw that insult.
Unfortunately, I think his comment is entirely valid, because you have stubbornly refused to admit your slur on modern Germans (several of whom I can count as good friends) itself needed to be withdrawn.
You are insulting yourself @Valiantphil . I merely made an observation on what would happen if you didn't cover your ignorance.
I'm not sure what relevance Germany's membership of the single market has to do with the Holocaust. I'm sure Valiantphil wasn't just using it as a cheap and inappropriate comment in order to slander the EU (this wouldn't be the first time he referenced the EU and Nazis in the same paragraph in a completely inappropriate way). But he might have to explain why it is a just comparison.
Marina Hyde takes apart Farage's sudden conversion to a second referendum, not to mention his new fedora. Don't miss the reference to Oyston, and the excellent soundbite from an EU diplomat.
So UK lorry drivers particulars won't be valid in the EU after leaving, and EU ones presumably won't be valid in the UK. How is that resolved? How is that resolved without thorough border checks? Will the M20 stack up back to Sidcup?
Marina Hyde takes apart Farage's sudden conversion to a second referendum, not to mention his new fedora. Don't miss the reference to Oyston, and the excellent soundbite from an EU diplomat.
I cannot link to it because of the paywall, but Matthew Parris in the Times today explains how the referendum result is being gradually but relentlessly undermined and reversed by the Remainers who are in charge of the process.He is a Remainer remember.
Also, Prague, remember our little ( non pecuniary) bet about the pound versus the dollar. Just saying.
So UK lorry drivers particulars won't be valid in the EU after leaving, and EU ones presumably won't be valid in the UK. How is that resolved? How is that resolved without thorough border checks? Will the M20 stack up back to Sidcup?
Presumably we agree to reciprocally honour each other's documents as part of the exit deal?
I want a referendum about whether we should have any more referenda - just like the Swiss did a few decades back. Problem would be if it was 52-48 either way, folk would say it doesn't count. Then they would want to add-in the people who couldn't be bothered to vote (or had no preference) and say it wasn't representative of the population.
Any referendum we have in the future could be questioned in this way, even a referendum about how we should view the result of a referendum.
This is what would make the UK a laughing stock - not leaving the EU, and as for the Germans thinking we are mad, they are the guys that tried to exterminate all foreigners in their country and then a generation later invited foreigners to come and live there. Now, that is real madness.
I think there is a fairly large part of the British population who think about World War 2 at least three times a day and for whom national pride is built on a foundation of Vera Lyn songs and Winston Churchill quotes.
Marina Hyde takes apart Farage's sudden conversion to a second referendum, not to mention his new fedora. Don't miss the reference to Oyston, and the excellent soundbite from an EU diplomat.
As good as ever but growing her hair out confused me.
Comments
But I am sure better political minds are working on this as we speak.
There was no need to launch the whole fiasco we are seeing unfold before us in March. It was due to an artificial deadline she set for herself in order to appease the rabid Leavers in her party and the papers. We we're clearly totally unprepared; in terms of our analysis of what needed to be done, what our future position will be and the whole planning and resourcing of how we will achieve any of this. It's like setting off to climb a mountain in a pair of espadrilles because the bit at the bottom has half a dozen concrete steps and...you know...how hard can it be?
So March'17 comes round and even though the mountain's now covered in snow, and every expert is telling them not to do it and they must have known we weren't anything like being prepared for it, they went ahead anyway.
I'm convinced this was because they thought that by doing so then, not only would she get the press off her back, but she'd have the bonus that she would enjoy a positive response as a result in the election she was always going to call to take advantage of Corbyn's perceived weakness at the time.
They've never done anything different than put the party first IMO.
Bit like breaking a priceless vase into 1000 pieces then whinging that the curator cannot piece it back together perfectly.
No wonder not a single prominent Brexiter has stepped up to actually take responsibility for delivering Brexit. Davis doesn't count because he obviously was never a true believer in the first place and has done everything he can short of exposing himself to get the sack.
I don’t get it.
No doubt they have something on May which is why so she is so paralysed. Fields of wheat are clearly the least of her problems.
I am merely stating facts
"David Davis has been sidelined in Brexit negotiations, with Theresa May increasingly relying on a former aide to the Brexit Secretary to lead talks instead."
So your link in fact confirms that May isn't leading talks but someone else is.
Maybe next time you state facts, perhaps state the facts that are actually true?
How is that resolved?
How is that resolved without thorough border checks?
Will the M20 stack up back to Sidcup?
Also, Prague, remember our little ( non pecuniary) bet about the pound versus the dollar. Just saying.
Leavers won.
Get on with it.
...(if you can)...