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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • Rob7Lee said:

    Not even number 10 and 11 are singing from the same hymn sheet. Add to that the swivel eyed harmony section humming their own tune and we have a government not fit for purpose.

    Everyone including all of the conservative MP's know that May is finished and yet they can't get the courage up to replace her. Party over country again and again and again by this shower of shit.

    not a question of 'the party' replaceing her, there is no viable successor ..

    as I wrote on another post, it looks to me as though the backbenchers/the 1922 committee have never had it so good (shades of Harold McM) .. they can use May as a puppet as she is so keen to cling on to her 'position' as PM that she'll do anything that they tell her to do ..
    she was only voted in as leader because the Tories had splits down the middle over Brexit .. the general election result showed what the electorate think of her .. a preening poseur who is totally out of her depth ..
    BUT .. would Corbyn and his bunch of illiterates do any better ? ..
    I think May and the Tories will cling onto power for a few years yet .. remember how Wilson and the Lib/Lab pact and Cameron/Clegg, the 2cs clung on for dear life in days of yore
    Quite possibly but that just further damages this country going forward.

    Do the damned decent thing and call an election....... No. Not on your nelly. Party before the good of the country. I hope the electorate see through this moribund mob.

    Don't see how another election is doing the 'decent thing', we had one a few months ago...... let's say we had another one, let's assume Labour won (I'm not convinced they'd get a majority anymore than the Tories did) - then what, if Labour make a balls of it like many expect we have another one in 3/6 months time?

    I personally don't think we should ever have an early election, if you are elected into government for x years that's what you should serve. Certainly a government shouldn't be able to call one because they think it suits them, ala the Tories earlier this year.
    The electorate have the right to expect that the government they elect are fit for purpose. We currently have a Prime Minister that everyone accepts is only still there because there is no one either at this point willing or electable enough to take her out. The PM at loggerheads with her chancellor and Foreign Secretary and at least half of the other cabinet members. A Brexit Minister who looks unlikely to be able to deliver any deal in the timescale required and is increasingly looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

    The most important time for this country since WW2 and we don't even have a Prime Minister that the Conservative party believe in.

    The decent thing for this country would be to resign as a government.

  • Not another expert..... There seems to be experts in the world than ordinary people.
  • Not another expert..... There seems to be experts in the world than ordinary people.

    You would know... you're the expert.

    (Best buddy)
  • Rob7Lee said:

    Not even number 10 and 11 are singing from the same hymn sheet. Add to that the swivel eyed harmony section humming their own tune and we have a government not fit for purpose.

    Everyone including all of the conservative MP's know that May is finished and yet they can't get the courage up to replace her. Party over country again and again and again by this shower of shit.

    not a question of 'the party' replaceing her, there is no viable successor ..

    as I wrote on another post, it looks to me as though the backbenchers/the 1922 committee have never had it so good (shades of Harold McM) .. they can use May as a puppet as she is so keen to cling on to her 'position' as PM that she'll do anything that they tell her to do ..
    she was only voted in as leader because the Tories had splits down the middle over Brexit .. the general election result showed what the electorate think of her .. a preening poseur who is totally out of her depth ..
    BUT .. would Corbyn and his bunch of illiterates do any better ? ..
    I think May and the Tories will cling onto power for a few years yet .. remember how Wilson and the Lib/Lab pact and Cameron/Clegg, the 2cs clung on for dear life in days of yore
    Quite possibly but that just further damages this country going forward.

    Do the damned decent thing and call an election....... No. Not on your nelly. Party before the good of the country. I hope the electorate see through this moribund mob.

    Don't see how another election is doing the 'decent thing', we had one a few months ago...... let's say we had another one, let's assume Labour won (I'm not convinced they'd get a majority anymore than the Tories did) - then what, if Labour make a balls of it like many expect we have another one in 3/6 months time?

    I personally don't think we should ever have an early election, if you are elected into government for x years that's what you should serve. Certainly a government shouldn't be able to call one because they think it suits them, ala the Tories earlier this year.
    The electorate have the right to expect that the government they elect are fit for purpose. We currently have a Prime Minister that everyone accepts is only still there because there is no one either at this point willing or electable enough to take her out. The PM at loggerheads with her chancellor and Foreign Secretary and at least half of the other cabinet members. A Brexit Minister who looks unlikely to be able to deliver any deal in the timescale required and is increasingly looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

    The most important time for this country since WW2 and we don't even have a Prime Minister that the Conservative party believe in.

    The decent thing for this country would be to resign as a government.

    I think you've got your rose tinted specs on,

    The alternative (Labour) is hardly inspiring. It wasn't so long ago 170+ MP's of the party gave a vote of no confidence in the leader and 20 of the shadow cabinet quit, the shadow cabinet has seen more changes than a pre season friendly over the past 18 month. Despite this did Corbyn quit? Should he have stood down? Whereas Auntie Theresa is at logger heads you say with a number of her cabinet etc so should resign and also so should the government as a whole.

    We'll never know if Labour would have made a better or worse job of it so far, we'll get our chance to elect a government again at the next election, but I don't think that will be for a fair while yet.
  • Rob7Lee said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Not even number 10 and 11 are singing from the same hymn sheet. Add to that the swivel eyed harmony section humming their own tune and we have a government not fit for purpose.

    Everyone including all of the conservative MP's know that May is finished and yet they can't get the courage up to replace her. Party over country again and again and again by this shower of shit.

    not a question of 'the party' replaceing her, there is no viable successor ..

    as I wrote on another post, it looks to me as though the backbenchers/the 1922 committee have never had it so good (shades of Harold McM) .. they can use May as a puppet as she is so keen to cling on to her 'position' as PM that she'll do anything that they tell her to do ..
    she was only voted in as leader because the Tories had splits down the middle over Brexit .. the general election result showed what the electorate think of her .. a preening poseur who is totally out of her depth ..
    BUT .. would Corbyn and his bunch of illiterates do any better ? ..
    I think May and the Tories will cling onto power for a few years yet .. remember how Wilson and the Lib/Lab pact and Cameron/Clegg, the 2cs clung on for dear life in days of yore
    Quite possibly but that just further damages this country going forward.

    Do the damned decent thing and call an election....... No. Not on your nelly. Party before the good of the country. I hope the electorate see through this moribund mob.

    Don't see how another election is doing the 'decent thing', we had one a few months ago...... let's say we had another one, let's assume Labour won (I'm not convinced they'd get a majority anymore than the Tories did) - then what, if Labour make a balls of it like many expect we have another one in 3/6 months time?

    I personally don't think we should ever have an early election, if you are elected into government for x years that's what you should serve. Certainly a government shouldn't be able to call one because they think it suits them, ala the Tories earlier this year.
    The electorate have the right to expect that the government they elect are fit for purpose. We currently have a Prime Minister that everyone accepts is only still there because there is no one either at this point willing or electable enough to take her out. The PM at loggerheads with her chancellor and Foreign Secretary and at least half of the other cabinet members. A Brexit Minister who looks unlikely to be able to deliver any deal in the timescale required and is increasingly looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

    The most important time for this country since WW2 and we don't even have a Prime Minister that the Conservative party believe in.

    The decent thing for this country would be to resign as a government.

    I think you've got your rose tinted specs on,

    The alternative (Labour) is hardly inspiring. It wasn't so long ago 170+ MP's of the party gave a vote of no confidence in the leader and 20 of the shadow cabinet quit, the shadow cabinet has seen more changes than a pre season friendly over the past 18 month. Despite this did Corbyn quit? Should he have stood down? Whereas Auntie Theresa is at logger heads you say with a number of her cabinet etc so should resign and also so should the government as a whole.

    We'll never know if Labour would have made a better or worse job of it so far, we'll get our chance to elect a government again at the next election, but I don't think that will be for a fair while yet.
    Oh I agree entirely. I have no confidence that a Corbyn government would be a success.

    What I do know though is that this government are not a success and are leading this country down the road to absolute ruin. They have presided and are presiding over the worst position this country has been in since the 1950's. Brexit will finish us off but party over country is more important.

  • Rob7Lee said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    Not even number 10 and 11 are singing from the same hymn sheet. Add to that the swivel eyed harmony section humming their own tune and we have a government not fit for purpose.

    Everyone including all of the conservative MP's know that May is finished and yet they can't get the courage up to replace her. Party over country again and again and again by this shower of shit.

    not a question of 'the party' replaceing her, there is no viable successor ..

    as I wrote on another post, it looks to me as though the backbenchers/the 1922 committee have never had it so good (shades of Harold McM) .. they can use May as a puppet as she is so keen to cling on to her 'position' as PM that she'll do anything that they tell her to do ..
    she was only voted in as leader because the Tories had splits down the middle over Brexit .. the general election result showed what the electorate think of her .. a preening poseur who is totally out of her depth ..
    BUT .. would Corbyn and his bunch of illiterates do any better ? ..
    I think May and the Tories will cling onto power for a few years yet .. remember how Wilson and the Lib/Lab pact and Cameron/Clegg, the 2cs clung on for dear life in days of yore
    Quite possibly but that just further damages this country going forward.

    Do the damned decent thing and call an election....... No. Not on your nelly. Party before the good of the country. I hope the electorate see through this moribund mob.

    Don't see how another election is doing the 'decent thing', we had one a few months ago...... let's say we had another one, let's assume Labour won (I'm not convinced they'd get a majority anymore than the Tories did) - then what, if Labour make a balls of it like many expect we have another one in 3/6 months time?

    I personally don't think we should ever have an early election, if you are elected into government for x years that's what you should serve. Certainly a government shouldn't be able to call one because they think it suits them, ala the Tories earlier this year.
    The electorate have the right to expect that the government they elect are fit for purpose. We currently have a Prime Minister that everyone accepts is only still there because there is no one either at this point willing or electable enough to take her out. The PM at loggerheads with her chancellor and Foreign Secretary and at least half of the other cabinet members. A Brexit Minister who looks unlikely to be able to deliver any deal in the timescale required and is increasingly looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

    The most important time for this country since WW2 and we don't even have a Prime Minister that the Conservative party believe in.

    The decent thing for this country would be to resign as a government.

    I think you've got your rose tinted specs on,

    The alternative (Labour) is hardly inspiring. It wasn't so long ago 170+ MP's of the party gave a vote of no confidence in the leader and 20 of the shadow cabinet quit, the shadow cabinet has seen more changes than a pre season friendly over the past 18 month. Despite this did Corbyn quit? Should he have stood down? Whereas Auntie Theresa is at logger heads you say with a number of her cabinet etc so should resign and also so should the government as a whole.

    We'll never know if Labour would have made a better or worse job of it so far, we'll get our chance to elect a government again at the next election, but I don't think that will be for a fair while yet.
    Oh I agree entirely. I have no confidence that a Corbyn government would be a success.

    What I do know though is that this government are not a success and are leading this country down the road to absolute ruin. They have presided and are presiding over the worst position this country has been in since the 1950's. Brexit will finish us off but party over country is more important.

    Party over country and also individual over party has been the name of the game for as long as I can remember for the vast majority.

    So if you have no confidence in Labour either what would be the point of a government stepping down and another election? The negotiators in the EU would be rubbing their hands.

    I really can't go through another election thread this year :wink:

  • edited October 2017
    As somebody who thinks Brexit will be a disaster and is seeing the evidence already, I don't want there to be an election for at least another year. With 69% of the population opposing a hard Brexit, that is the way it will be defeated. And it looks like that is all this government can deliver.

    The Labour position will have to change when it is too late to negotiate a soft Brexit, but if they got in now, they would have a mandate and time to do it. If the government could get a hard Brexit through a pro remain overall house of commons, it won't get it through with an even more pro remain house of lords, especially as they will easily argue, with justification, it has no mandate.

    I think the pro remain Tories and Labour MPs are holding their fire for the moment, but there is no way they won't have been discussing tactics with each other.
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  • As somebody who thinks Brexit will be a disaster and is seeing the evidence already ..,,,

    Is that the doubling in the price of raw materials since the Brexit announcement?

    Just asking as you did not respond to my question regarding clarification.

    Sorry to push this, but whenever I made statements about figures in the past, posters on here always asked for evidence. Only fair it works both ways.
  • Fiiish said:

    It's like watching someone with 7 bullets put 6 in 1 revolver (Tories) and 1 in the other (Labour) and asking you which one you want to play Russian Roulette with. Labour might be terrible but you know for a fact you're fooked under the Tories.

    Maybe but you're a fooking idiot to play that game either way. Maybe most of us just don't want to play Russian Roulette.
  • As somebody who thinks Brexit will be a disaster and is seeing the evidence already, I don't want there to be an election for at least another year. With 69% of the population opposing a hard Brexit, that is the way it will be defeated. And it looks like that is all this government can deliver.

    Where's that stat from?

  • Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    I believe one of the sticking points is the 7 year cycle of planned EU infrastructure expenditure which ends in 2019.
    The current budget is under-spent and is very likely to remain that way due to the short time left to get projects started and completed.

    IMO - The UK is saying, "well let's have our bit of that under-spend back", and "don't include us in the next 7 year cycle because we won't be here".
  • Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    But do we need a hard border? There is no hard border between Norway (non EU) and Sweden (EU), so I understand. This customs relationship is dependent upon an IT solution.
  • PeterGage said:

    Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    But do we need a hard border? There is no hard border between Norway (non EU) and Sweden (EU), so I understand. This customs relationship is dependent upon an IT solution.
    Norway is part of the EFTA and single market, the UK wouldn't be in that.

    Better explainer is here

    http://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/is-norway-in-the-customs-union/
  • Dazzler21 said:

    Fiiish said:

    It's like watching someone with 7 bullets put 6 in 1 revolver (Tories) and 1 in the other (Labour) and asking you which one you want to play Russian Roulette with. Labour might be terrible but you know for a fact you're fooked under the Tories.

    Maybe but you're a fooking idiot to play that game either way. Maybe most of us just don't want to play Russian Roulette.
    To be fair if someone is pointing two loaded guns at you and is telling you to play Russian Roulette then you make the best of the situation!
  • Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    The people of the ROI and Nothern Ireland will not accept a hard border in a million years. One of the unintended consequences of a hard Brexit will be the inevitable break up of the UK. So the Little Englanders who voted Brexit will be responsible, amongst many things, for the reunification of Ireland. I am sure that will bring them much joy!
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  • Fiiish said:

    Dazzler21 said:

    Fiiish said:

    It's like watching someone with 7 bullets put 6 in 1 revolver (Tories) and 1 in the other (Labour) and asking you which one you want to play Russian Roulette with. Labour might be terrible but you know for a fact you're fooked under the Tories.

    Maybe but you're a fooking idiot to play that game either way. Maybe most of us just don't want to play Russian Roulette.
    To be fair if someone is pointing two loaded guns at you and is telling you to play Russian Roulette then you make the best of the situation!
    Have you never seen the Deer Hunter.

    You take the gun with six bullets, kill all the VC and then escape
  • edited October 2017
    stonemuse said:

    As somebody who thinks Brexit will be a disaster and is seeing the evidence already ..,,,

    Is that the doubling in the price of raw materials since the Brexit announcement?

    Just asking as you did not respond to my question regarding clarification.

    Sorry to push this, but whenever I made statements about figures in the past, posters on here always asked for evidence. Only fair it works both ways.
    Why do I have to give you my financial and business information on demand? I'd rather ignore you. You are welcome to ignore me.
  • edited October 2017
    .

    Fiiish said:

    Dazzler21 said:

    Fiiish said:

    It's like watching someone with 7 bullets put 6 in 1 revolver (Tories) and 1 in the other (Labour) and asking you which one you want to play Russian Roulette with. Labour might be terrible but you know for a fact you're fooked under the Tories.

    Maybe but you're a fooking idiot to play that game either way. Maybe most of us just don't want to play Russian Roulette.
    To be fair if someone is pointing two loaded guns at you and is telling you to play Russian Roulette then you make the best of the situation!
    Have you never seen the Deer Hunter.

    You take the gun with six bullets, kill all the VC and then escape
    Beat me to it, that's exactly what I had in my drafts!!

    Stock market not effected yet.....
  • Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    I think you've got confused with Area 51...which ironically is a whole different steaming pile of conspiracy theory bullshit.

    ;-)
  • Although I'm a Tory through & through I really feel we are making a pigs-ear of Brexit. It doesn't help that 2 of the most Senior members of the Government are remainers (PM & Chancellor) - and the EU know that. I don't think that the people leading the country should be people who don't really believe in what the country asked them to achieve, ie leave the EU.

    I'd much prefer Nigel Farage to be doing the negotiating on our behalf - at least he knows how the EU works. I reckon a No Deal is now more likely, especially as the Irish situation wont / cant be agreed upon - as a EU politician recently said, its non-negotiable. Its a hard fact. If we leave the EU properly then there have to be hard borders between us. ROI is a EU country & so there HAS to be a border - anything else & we haven't left & the free movement we wanted to leave behind will still be there.

    Finally. Like much in life there is not enough "gonad growing" . Have the EU told us how much they want as a divorce settlement ? if so, why aren't we being told. Today they are saying they not enough has been agreed to move on. I'd tell them " we've done out bit - if you don't think its enough then fine. We'll leave with no deal - and no deal means no payment. We leave. I don't believe Article 51 says anything about payments or settlement of "debts", so fine. We leave in Match 2019 & go from there. No transition period or anything.

    I think you've got confused with Area 51...which ironically is a whole different steaming pile of conspiracy theory bullshit.

    ;-)
    Yeah but can you imagine the films they will make about Article 51.
  • edited October 2017
    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    As somebody who thinks Brexit will be a disaster and is seeing the evidence already ..,,,

    Is that the doubling in the price of raw materials since the Brexit announcement?

    Just asking as you did not respond to my question regarding clarification.

    Sorry to push this, but whenever I made statements about figures in the past, posters on here always asked for evidence. Only fair it works both ways.
    Why do I have to give you my financial and business information on demand? I'd rather ignore you. You are welcome to ignore me.
    I have no interest whatsoever in your business.

    You firmly stated that the price of a raw material had doubled and I merely asked which raw material. It has a relevance for me because I work in Trade and this fact was unknown to me.

    It’s rather a poor show from you to suggest I am asking for financial and business information when you know very well I was asking a generic question.

    I guess you would prefer that I ignored you so that you can avoid the question.

    Such a pity really as I thought you were quite genuine in the past. I will just have to draw my own conclusions as to why you are deferring my question.
    I stated something honestly and qualified that in most cases we have found suppliers elsewhere, but these are still significantly more expensive and in some cases we have had to buy from the same suppliers. then I get some rude crank basically calling me a liar and then you asking for more details. I am not wasting any more time on it - I was talking or moaning to people who think alike, I have no need to justify or waste any more time on any others. Do you want me to scan an old invoice and a new one and put them on here FFS?

    Maybe I will when I have some time - but sure you will pick holes in that when I do.
This discussion has been closed.

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