Clean title would also be essential were you wishing to undertake any redevelopment or relocation exercise
Posted without really reading everything, so apologies if it’s old ground, but clean title would probably also be essential if you are not actually planning on putting the cash up front but intended to borrow the money against the assets you were taking over
@JamesSeed I don't want to form a negative opinion of the Aussies in any way, I simply don't know enough to form any opinion.
What I think would be a big help is if you could reiterate again what you know about the Aussie consortium, so the rest of us are clear from where you are coming from. It may well be you don't know the answer to any of these Qs, in which case fair enough and no problem, but if you can answer any of them I'd certainly be interested.
1. is your contact a financial contributing player in the consortium or non-financial (my guess / understanding is non-financial but could be wrong)
2. are you aware of how many potential financial contributors currently make up the consortium? 1-3, 3-5, 5-9, 10+? (another poster who had spoken to GM indicated lower end involvement could be from approx. £3m)
3. are you aware of the names of any of the potential financial contributors other than Muir? Is Muir definitely the main financial contributor to this, or just the one who has publicly shown himself?
4. Are you aware of any non-financial contributing members of this consortium other than Paul Elliott and (potentially) GM?
5. is Elliott the only non-Australian involved in the group?
cheers @JamesSeed as said, if you don't know the answer to any of these, no problem.
I've been out all day Sunday so came back to over 150 pages. Can someone do a summary?
To @Davidsmith my apologies if my challenges to what I saw as inconsistencies came over to you as abuse. I didn't think I was at all abusive but I do find the frequent use of "why don't the....." statements frustrating. I shouldn't have let that frustration affect the way I posted though.
Regardless, I hope you reconsider and continue posting.
As the Aussies, they will have to prove themselves if and when they actually take over and begin to run the club.
Until then, it will continue to be, as someone once said, a bumpy ride
WIOTOS
Apology accepted. Just passing on what I know and hear. In response to Harveys Gardener, I agree why pay £7mn interest free loan off and then borrow at 4 to 6%, we all understand that. But then you are stuck with charges that stop you from leasing any assets like the Stadium or Training Ground or Buildings. Also as someone mentioned maybe Roland never informed them about these restrictions and they agreed a price based on what they thought was clear title, thus now having to accept restrictions or pay up £7mn more now or except a £7mn future liability. Either way they will be paying £7mn more, you can argue that then they would be awash with Premier League cash and won't care. But they have to accept that £7mn uplift in price now, even if its payment date is delayed. Also James Seed maybe check with GM, but maybe this is the reason GM never in last 12 months contacted Ex Directors, as he only recently found this problem.
I get the feeling that the delays aren’t only to do with ex directors loans. That info from a different source.
Worth remembering also is of course that GM uses lawyers, so questions about restrictions or charges or historic loans would have been asked fairly on in the process (I would have thought) as a matter of routine. If it’s true that they only found out about them recently (and I don’t know where that info comes from), then it would clearly be RD’s side that were to blame for keeping schtum about them.
As I’ve said GM hasn’t given me any info at all about the negotiations since our beer meeting, except to deny rumours.
I think they’re working their way through various legal issues, and speculating exactly what they are is pointless, as nothing will be confirmed until after the sale, and possibly not even then. For all I know it could ‘happen’ today, or in September. All I know is that it would suit both sides if it happened ASAP.
Clean title would also be essential were you wishing to undertake any redevelopment or relocation exercise
Posted without really reading everything, so apologies if it’s old ground, but clean title would probably also be essential if you are not actually planning on putting the cash up front but intended to borrow the money against the assets you were taking over
Just an opinion, but I believe the investors are there to put up the money for the five year plan, and the investors are wealthy individuals who shouldn’t need to borrow the money from banks.
@JamesSeed I don't want to form a negative opinion of the Aussies in any way, I simply don't know enough to form any opinion.
What I think would be a big help is if you could reiterate again what you know about the Aussie consortium, so the rest of us are clear from where you are coming from. It may well be you don't know the answer to any of these Qs, in which case fair enough and no problem, but if you can answer any of them I'd certainly be interested.
1. is your contact a financial contributing player in the consortium or non-financial (my guess / understanding is non-financial but could be wrong)
2. are you aware of how many potential financial contributors currently make up the consortium? 1-3, 3-5, 5-9, 10+? (another poster who had spoken to GM indicated lower end involvement could be from approx. £3m)
3. are you aware of the names of any of the potential financial contributors other than Muir? Is Muir definitely the main financial contributor to this, or just the one who has publicly shown himself?
4. Are you aware of any non-financial contributing members of this consortium other than Paul Elliott and (potentially) GM?
5. is Elliott the only non-Australian involved in the group?
cheers @JamesSeed as said, if you don't know the answer to any of these, no problem.
I can only refer back to my 19th May post and the context of the beer meeting (I only had a limited time to chat).
It was clear that he couldn’t talk about names of investors, and financial matters etc and would only say that Andrew Muir is a really nice bloke. He is definitely the main backer, and I don’t know anything about the other backers. When you sign an NDA in these situations there’s no way you can pass on info about investors and legals to anyone, least of all a Charlton fan.
I’m 90% certain that GM won’t be an investor. He’s the front man, and main negotiator along with the lawyers. As I said up until 18th May they hadn’t even met Roland, only his ‘people’. They also said the delays up to that point had been because of legal problems pre dating the Roland era.
I only know about Paul Elliot because he was with GM when he phoned me once.
If they buy the club I’ll be interested to know how close they came to walking away because of all the (alleged) shenanigans.
I've been out all day Sunday so came back to over 150 pages. Can someone do a summary?
To @Davidsmith my apologies if my challenges to what I saw as inconsistencies came over to you as abuse. I didn't think I was at all abusive but I do find the frequent use of "why don't the....." statements frustrating. I shouldn't have let that frustration affect the way I posted though.
Regardless, I hope you reconsider and continue posting.
As the Aussies, they will have to prove themselves if and when they actually take over and begin to run the club.
Until then, it will continue to be, as someone once said, a bumpy ride
WIOTOS
Two things to report:
1. No verifiable and meaningful news. 2. Plenty of speculation (most of it circular and going back for months).
There's no fucking way the charges can only have become an issue in the last days or weeks, they're there clear to see, for free on Companies House website, their origin and all salient detail on them has been widely discussed for years. IF (and I don't subscribe to this) the would be purchasers only just found out about them, then they'd have to be dribbling fucktard losers - buying a company without looking up all the freely available gen before even speaking to the vendor would be the work of a risible moron - it simply ain't credible. When it comes to misinformation, dishonesty, crackpot notions and all around unreliability there is one constant spectre in CAFC's last 4 and a half years. Any body doing any business with him, let alone much to do with his football fantasy land, will need to tread very carefully and only seek to progress each stage on the full, frank and verifiable resolution of the previous. IF the aussies are taking baby steps, all to the good, they're dealing with the supreme expert - X = the unknown quantity and a 'spert is a drip under pressure. WIOTOS
Surely as well, before engaging £1m worth of professional services, the Aussies would have had some high level talks with RD just to scope out what sort of deal they were talking about and to agree any assumptions. I.e. we're looking to buy the business in its totality, we expect a clean title, we're not looking to take on any existing debts... That sort of thing. They couldn't at that stage have known if Two Shats was hiding things from them or if he secretly took a different view on how things might proceed, but it should at least head off misunderstandings later down the line.
Surely as well, before engaging £1m worth of professional services, the Aussies would have had some high level talks with RD just to scope out what sort of deal they were talking about and to agree any assumptions. I.e. we're looking to buy the business in its totality, we expect a clean title, we're not looking to take on any existing debts... That sort of thing. They couldn't at that stage have known if Two Shats was hiding things from them or if he secretly took a different view on how things might proceed, but it should at least head off misunderstandings later down the line.
Up until December they would have been dealing with Meire and/or the lawyers, not Roland direct.
I doubt that was by their choice but by Roland's.
My hunch is that the Aussies have always known about the directors bonds but they were told by Roland's camp that they weren't an issue as they (the sellers) would deal with them.
When push came to shove the old directors, or at least some of them, were happy taking 50% or even 25% of their value and may also have been unwilling to hand over control to Duchatelet who we know has toyed with the idea of leasing the Valley.
Maybe the current issue is not WIOTOS because that leads us to occupy a vacuum limbo of waiting and hanging about. Despite the so called official pronouncements from the club (and am I the only person who sees the entire communications department as an irrelevant propaganda machine operated by dreary flunkies?) the reality is that Duchatelet owns us and is running us. If that means optimism for some people, season tickets, Valley Gold, Valley Pass, carnivore evenings at the club then good for them, they are content. If that means pessimism for some people it will be about how that manifests either collectively or individually. I am a pessimist under Duchatelet, but ignoring it all does not feel like an option for me, I have too much personal investment to let it go and stay away from it all. So if there are others like me (as there has been in the past) I am all for a campaign of disruption, civil disobedience, trickery, and general fifth columnism rather than do nothing. As I write today ROT is all we've got.
I've been out all day Sunday so came back to over 150 pages. Can someone do a summary?
To @Davidsmith my apologies if my challenges to what I saw as inconsistencies came over to you as abuse. I didn't think I was at all abusive but I do find the frequent use of "why don't the....." statements frustrating. I shouldn't have let that frustration affect the way I posted though.
Regardless, I hope you reconsider and continue posting.
As the Aussies, they will have to prove themselves if and when they actually take over and begin to run the club.
Until then, it will continue to be, as someone once said, a bumpy ride
Maybe the current issue is not WIOTOS because that leads us to occupy a vacuum limbo of waiting and hanging about. Despite the so called official pronouncements from the club (and am I the only person who sees the entire communications department as an irrelevant propaganda machine operated by dreary flunkies?) the reality is that Duchatelet owns us and is running us. If that means optimism for some people, season tickets, Valley Gold, Valley Pass, carnivore evenings at the club then good for them, they are content. If that means pessimism for some people it will be about how that manifests either collectively or individually. I am a pessimist under Duchatelet, but ignoring it all does not feel like an option for me, I have too much personal investment to let it go and stay away from it all. So if there are others like me (as there has been in the past) I am all for a campaign of disruption, civil disobedience, trickery, and general fifth columnism rather than do nothing. As I write today ROT is all we've got.
This gets a flag Henry? Is it for dissing WIOTOS or for my opinion about the communications department?
Maybe the current issue is not WIOTOS because that leads us to occupy a vacuum limbo of waiting and hanging about. Despite the so called official pronouncements from the club (and am I the only person who sees the entire communications department as an irrelevant propaganda machine operated by dreary flunkies?) the reality is that Duchatelet owns us and is running us. If that means optimism for some people, season tickets, Valley Gold, Valley Pass, carnivore evenings at the club then good for them, they are content. If that means pessimism for some people it will be about how that manifests either collectively or individually. I am a pessimist under Duchatelet, but ignoring it all does not feel like an option for me, I have too much personal investment to let it go and stay away from it all. So if there are others like me (as there has been in the past) I am all for a campaign of disruption, civil disobedience, trickery, and general fifth columnism rather than do nothing. As I write today ROT is all we've got.
This gets a flag Henry? Is it for dissing WIOTOS or for my opinion about the communications department?
You don't understand what WIOTOS means
The flag was for calling Olly, and others, "dreary flunkies".
Ffs we are arguing and flagging one another now. Roland is the enemy and he always has been. He is like a cancer hanging over our club and the sooner he fucks off and we can just get back to supporting Charlton announced not arguing with one another the better.
The real question is why Roland made no attempt whatsoever to settle the loans until mid June - and why he suddenly did so then.
My guess would be that it has more to do with the "British bid", which is as you previously alluded to is probably RM and others.
Again a guess but they probably haven't got the funds to buy but would lease the ground and training facilities. To do this the Directors loans would need to be repaid as they will not agree to let RM run the show again (well some of them anyway).
Ffs we are arguing and flagging one another now. Roland is the enemy and he always has been. He is like a cancer hanging over our club and the sooner he fucks off and we can just get back to supporting Charlton announced not arguing with one another the better.
I agree which is why Seth is so so so wrong to be slagging off the Charlton people, and others, in the comms team for no reason.
He's already forgotten about Meire's attempt to sack Olly because he stood up to her (it was in VOTV, Seth, the mag you sell remember) so it's back to slagging off the comms teams.
Ffs we are arguing and flagging one another now. Roland is the enemy and he always has been. He is like a cancer hanging over our club and the sooner he fucks off and we can just get back to supporting Charlton announced not arguing with one another the better.
I agree which is why Seth is so so so wrong to be slagging off the Charlton people, and others, in the comms team for no reason.
He's already forgotten about Meire's attempt to sack Olly because he stood up to her (it was in VOTV, Seth, the mag you sell remember) so it's back to slagging off the comms teams.
That's fair enough mate. It's just such a shame so much division has been caused by the Belgium fuckwit.
Maybe the current issue is not WIOTOS because that leads us to occupy a vacuum limbo of waiting and hanging about. Despite the so called official pronouncements from the club (and am I the only person who sees the entire communications department as an irrelevant propaganda machine operated by dreary flunkies?) the reality is that Duchatelet owns us and is running us. If that means optimism for some people, season tickets, Valley Gold, Valley Pass, carnivore evenings at the club then good for them, they are content. If that means pessimism for some people it will be about how that manifests either collectively or individually. I am a pessimist under Duchatelet, but ignoring it all does not feel like an option for me, I have too much personal investment to let it go and stay away from it all. So if there are others like me (as there has been in the past) I am all for a campaign of disruption, civil disobedience, trickery, and general fifth columnism rather than do nothing. As I write today ROT is all we've got.
This gets a flag Henry? Is it for dissing WIOTOS or for my opinion about the communications department?
You don't understand what WIOTOS means
The flag was for calling Olly, and others, "dreary flunkies".
Ok thanks for clearing that up. It is good to know that some people have knights in shining armour prepared to stand up for them when they can't stand up for themselves.
Ffs we are arguing and flagging one another now. Roland is the enemy and he always has been. He is like a cancer hanging over our club and the sooner he fucks off and we can just get back to supporting Charlton announced not arguing with one another the better.
I agree which is why Seth is so so so wrong to be slagging off the Charlton people, and others, in the comms team for no reason.
He's already forgotten about Meire's attempt to sack Olly because he stood up to her (it was in VOTV, Seth, the mag you sell remember) so it's back to slagging off the comms teams.
For no reason? How do you know what I have remembered or forgotten about? Perhaps you make that comment about me for no reason.
Surely as well, before engaging £1m worth of professional services, the Aussies would have had some high level talks with RD just to scope out what sort of deal they were talking about and to agree any assumptions. I.e. we're looking to buy the business in its totality, we expect a clean title, we're not looking to take on any existing debts... That sort of thing. They couldn't at that stage have known if Two Shats was hiding things from them or if he secretly took a different view on how things might proceed, but it should at least head off misunderstandings later down the line.
Up until December they would have been dealing with Meire and/or the lawyers, not Roland direct.
I doubt that was by their choice but by Roland's.
My hunch is that the Aussies have always known about the directors bonds but they were told by Roland's camp that they weren't an issue as they (the sellers) would deal with them.
When push came to shove the old directors, or at least some of them, were happy taking 50% or even 25% of their value and may also have been unwilling to hand over control to Duchatelet who we know has toyed with the idea of leasing the Valley.
They hadn’t met Roland by the time I spoke to GM on 18 May.
I thought the Meire/Olly thing was because she picked on him for his clothes (something I condemned at the time if you wish to read back), and there was a hearing (and I know who 'chaired it') and he was found to have done nothing wrong. Is that standing up to somebody or (rightly) protecting oneself, or maybe you think they are one and the same thing.
Comments
What I think would be a big help is if you could reiterate again what you know about the Aussie consortium, so the rest of us are clear from where you are coming from. It may well be you don't know the answer to any of these Qs, in which case fair enough and no problem, but if you can answer any of them I'd certainly be interested.
1. is your contact a financial contributing player in the consortium or non-financial (my guess / understanding is non-financial but could be wrong)
2. are you aware of how many potential financial contributors currently make up the consortium? 1-3, 3-5, 5-9, 10+? (another poster who had spoken to GM indicated lower end involvement could be from approx. £3m)
3. are you aware of the names of any of the potential financial contributors other than Muir? Is Muir definitely the main financial contributor to this, or just the one who has publicly shown himself?
4. Are you aware of any non-financial contributing members of this consortium other than Paul Elliott and (potentially) GM?
5. is Elliott the only non-Australian involved in the group?
cheers @JamesSeed as said, if you don't know the answer to any of these, no problem.
I get the feeling that the delays aren’t only to do with ex directors loans. That info from a different source.
Worth remembering also is of course that GM uses lawyers, so questions about restrictions or charges or historic loans would have been asked fairly on in the process (I would have thought) as a matter of routine. If it’s true that they only found out about them recently (and I don’t know where that info comes from), then it would clearly be RD’s side that were to blame for keeping schtum about them.
As I’ve said GM hasn’t given me any info at all about the negotiations since our beer meeting, except to deny rumours.
I think they’re working their way through various legal issues, and speculating exactly what they are is pointless, as nothing will be confirmed until after the sale, and possibly not even then.
For all I know it could ‘happen’ today, or in September. All I know is that it would suit both sides if it happened ASAP.
It was clear that he couldn’t talk about names of investors, and financial matters etc and would only say that Andrew Muir is a really nice bloke. He is definitely the main backer, and I don’t know anything about the other backers. When you sign an NDA in these situations there’s no way you can pass on info about investors and legals to anyone, least of all a Charlton fan.
I’m 90% certain that GM won’t be an investor. He’s the front man, and main negotiator along with the lawyers. As I said up until 18th May they hadn’t even met Roland, only his ‘people’. They also said the delays up to that point had been because of legal problems pre dating the Roland era.
I only know about Paul Elliot because he was with GM when he phoned me once.
If they buy the club I’ll be interested to know how close they came to walking away because of all the (alleged) shenanigans.
Sorry I can’t help further.
1. No verifiable and meaningful news.
2. Plenty of speculation (most of it circular and going back for months).
IF (and I don't subscribe to this) the would be purchasers only just found out about them, then they'd have to be dribbling fucktard losers - buying a company without looking up all the freely available gen before even speaking to the vendor would be the work of a risible moron - it simply ain't credible.
When it comes to misinformation, dishonesty, crackpot notions and all around unreliability there is one constant spectre in CAFC's last 4 and a half years. Any body doing any business with him, let alone much to do with his football fantasy land, will need to tread very carefully and only seek to progress each stage on the full, frank and verifiable resolution of the previous. IF the aussies are taking baby steps, all to the good, they're dealing with the supreme expert - X = the unknown quantity and a 'spert is a drip under pressure.
WIOTOS
I doubt that was by their choice but by Roland's.
My hunch is that the Aussies have always known about the directors bonds but they were told by Roland's camp that they weren't an issue as they (the sellers) would deal with them.
When push came to shove the old directors, or at least some of them, were happy taking 50% or even 25% of their value and may also have been unwilling to hand over control to Duchatelet who we know has toyed with the idea of leasing the Valley.
Despite the so called official pronouncements from the club (and am I the only person who sees the entire communications department as an irrelevant propaganda machine operated by dreary flunkies?) the reality is that Duchatelet owns us and is running us.
If that means optimism for some people, season tickets, Valley Gold, Valley Pass, carnivore evenings at the club then good for them, they are content.
If that means pessimism for some people it will be about how that manifests either collectively or individually.
I am a pessimist under Duchatelet, but ignoring it all does not feel like an option for me, I have too much personal investment to let it go and stay away from it all.
So if there are others like me (as there has been in the past) I am all for a campaign of disruption, civil disobedience, trickery, and general fifth columnism rather than do nothing.
As I write today ROT is all we've got.
Is it for dissing WIOTOS or for my opinion about the communications department?
The flag was for calling Olly, and others, "dreary flunkies".
Roland is the enemy and he always has been.
He is like a cancer hanging over our club and the sooner he fucks off and we can just get back to supporting Charlton announced not arguing with one another the better.
Again a guess but they probably haven't got the funds to buy but would lease the ground and training facilities. To do this the Directors loans would need to be repaid as they will not agree to let RM run the show again (well some of them anyway).
Pure guesswork on my part of course.
He's already forgotten about Meire's attempt to sack Olly because he stood up to her (it was in VOTV, Seth, the mag you sell remember) so it's back to slagging off the comms teams.
It's just such a shame so much division has been caused by the Belgium fuckwit.
It is good to know that some people have knights in shining armour prepared to stand up for them when they can't stand up for themselves.
How do you know what I have remembered or forgotten about?
Perhaps you make that comment about me for no reason.