The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We don't have a 'right' as such and we don't need one. We're at the top of the food chain due to our infinitely superior intellect; we can do whatever we like to animals: ride them; eat them; wear them; make sacrifices of them; throw them off towers; anything we like in fact, they're too dumb to stop us unless you thrash about on a lilo where there are sharks or stroll around a savannah where lions live. Animals are animals.In the wild, an animal usually dies in wild-eyed agony while another animal rips its throat out and eats its stomach while it is still alive.The nearest it gets to being 'happy' is when this isn't happening to it, or it's eating something. People think chimps are clever because they poke a twig in an anthill, pull it out and eat the ants off it.Bravo cheetah, now imagine how good they'd be if only you could work out how to deep fry them and sprinkle them with a little salt... That said, I don't like animals suffering unnecessarily at our hand but I do like eating them. That quote above - you do realise that humans are guilty of doing everything mentioned to their fellow man. We're not just singling out animals...
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
So let me get this straight. This academic (who thinks that living in Wisconsin is a fine idea) cuts up fish and sews them back together again for a living? But let's give him his due, he actually noticed that fish resume normal behaviour after being caught and then released. What was he expecting? That they'd use their fins to make derogatory wanker signs at the deranged fruit-loop in a white coat? Partake in a spot of surfing, maybe? That guy needs to go out and get a proper job.
No, sorry, scrub some of that. He seems to be in Wyoming, he's not a Cheesehead as reported by Dipps. He's also a Professor Emeritus. To you and me that means he's retired. But I guess he's still looking for something to fill his time.
Surprise, surprise, it seems august bodies such as Angling Matters and the Angling Trust in the States are keen on his point of view, anyway, you get the picture. You may wish to ask yourself whether this "research" is wholly unbiased.
Notwithstanding any of that, fishing still seems an utterly dreary way of spending your free time. With a little vomit thrown in for good measure if offshore fishing is involved.
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We don't have a 'right' as such and we don't need one. We're at the top of the food chain due to our infinitely superior intellect; we can do whatever we like to animals: ride them; eat them; wear them; make sacrifices of them; throw them off towers; anything we like in fact, they're too dumb to stop us unless you thrash about on a lilo where there are sharks or stroll around a savannah where lions live. Animals are animals.In the wild, an animal usually dies in wild-eyed agony while another animal rips its throat out and eats its stomach while it is still alive.The nearest it gets to being 'happy' is when this isn't happening to it, or it's eating something. People think chimps are clever because they poke a twig in an anthill, pull it out and eat the ants off it.Bravo cheetah, now imagine how good they'd be if only you could work out how to deep fry them and sprinkle them with a little salt... That said, I don't like animals suffering unnecessarily at our hand but I do like eating them. That quote above - you do realise that humans are guilty of doing everything mentioned to their fellow man. We're not just singling out animals...
If one person has a 'superior intellect' to another person, does that mean they can kill 'em and eat 'em?
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We don't have a 'right' as such and we don't need one. We're at the top of the food chain due to our infinitely superior intellect; we can do whatever we like to animals: ride them; eat them; wear them; make sacrifices of them; throw them off towers; anything we like in fact, they're too dumb to stop us unless you thrash about on a lilo where there are sharks or stroll around a savannah where lions live. Animals are animals.In the wild, an animal usually dies in wild-eyed agony while another animal rips its throat out and eats its stomach while it is still alive.The nearest it gets to being 'happy' is when this isn't happening to it, or it's eating something. People think chimps are clever because they poke a twig in an anthill, pull it out and eat the ants off it.Bravo cheetah, now imagine how good they'd be if only you could work out how to deep fry them and sprinkle them with a little salt... That said, I don't like animals suffering unnecessarily at our hand but I do like eating them. That quote above - you do realise that humans are guilty of doing everything mentioned to their fellow man. We're not just singling out animals...
That just sums it up for me, we do it because we can. What a dreadful attitude.
I could say I can stab my neighbour because I can but that doesn't make it okay, does it.
We should be renamed animals, because our behaviour and attitude, is just like those, that you say spend all day ripping out each other's throats and stomachs.
To be fair, we are getting better. It is rare to watch an animal being tortured to death for entertainment these days. We generally don't like to witness suffering at first hand and vegetarians are respected as making a rational choice rather than being seen as witches or subversives. (Except on CL, of course).
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We don't have a 'right' as such and we don't need one. We're at the top of the food chain due to our infinitely superior intellect; we can do whatever we like to animals: ride them; eat them; wear them; make sacrifices of them; throw them off towers; anything we like in fact, they're too dumb to stop us unless you thrash about on a lilo where there are sharks or stroll around a savannah where lions live. Animals are animals.In the wild, an animal usually dies in wild-eyed agony while another animal rips its throat out and eats its stomach while it is still alive.The nearest it gets to being 'happy' is when this isn't happening to it, or it's eating something. People think chimps are clever because they poke a twig in an anthill, pull it out and eat the ants off it.Bravo cheetah, now imagine how good they'd be if only you could work out how to deep fry them and sprinkle them with a little salt... That said, I don't like animals suffering unnecessarily at our hand but I do like eating them. That quote above - you do realise that humans are guilty of doing everything mentioned to their fellow man. We're not just singling out animals...
If one person has a 'superior intellect' to another person, does that mean they can kill 'em and eat 'em?
And let's extend that to alien species that may potentially come to Earth. If they perceive us as intellectually inferior, is it ok for them to enslave us, torture us and eat us?
Would members of their society who ask for us to be treated with respect and dignity and farmed be considered irrational and dismissed as nut jobs?
To be fair, we are getting better. It is rare to watch an animal being tortured to death for entertainment these days. We generally don't like to witness suffering at first hand and vegetarians are respected as making a rational choice rather than being seen as witches or subversives. (Except on CL, of course).
Respected??? Well......that's just about as pretentious a statement as you can get......talk about taking the moral high ground. FFS!
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Are you being serious, do you really believe that?
To be fair, we are getting better. It is rare to watch an animal being tortured to death for entertainment these days. We generally don't like to witness suffering at first hand and vegetarians are respected as making a rational choice rather than being seen as witches or subversives. (Except on CL, of course).
Respected??? Well......that's just about as pretentious a statement as you can get......talk about taking the moral high ground. FFS!
I am a vegetarian and don't seek respect for being so. Some are bewildered by vegetarians, some don't understand it, some see it as no big deal, some are curious as to how it all works out, some despise vegetarians, some respect them, some vegetarians evangelise, some keep it on the down low. At the end of the day each adult person more or less decides for themselves what kind of relationship they have with other species who share the planet, and how much they see that relationship as important.
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Same can be said for shooting and / with conservation. Google "Wildfowling" for instance and look up some clubs in the UK, where you will see the work they put into habitat management etc. and this is for all species, including insects, mammals, reptiles as well as birds (and not just target species birds either).
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Are you being serious, do you really believe that?
Of course I do, I am not stupid enough to think all fish are generated this way, nature plays its part however I only fish for large carp and unless some of the species are put in the lakes by man they would never appear. Plus the waters I belong too have a lake where all small silver fish are transferred to when caught so for example on a day when they hold a match, at the end instead of the anglers putting the fish back into the lake they came from they are transferred to another lake.
Fishing is a very complex sport nowadays and anglers target specific fish on certain days and at different times of the year. I know people who pay in the region of 2k per season to fish for certain carp and ibborg will tell you what people pay to fish in France.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch something, bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
Without the licence money from angling our rivers would have a severe lack of funding for investment. This funding doesn't just go into improving fish stocks, it goes into all sorts of management regarding our freshwaters. If that money wasn't there then the quality of our rivers would dramatically decline affecting animals and human wellbeing.
In comparison to rivers I do find fishing lakes cruel and that's before they're fished. Our rivers work at carrying capacity. That is, our stocks of all species groups are maintained at what our rivers can carry. Lakes on the other hand are now so heavily stocked and fished that the fish in there are constantly starving and if they're not, the food needing to be thrown in reduces water quality and makes these places ripe for disease.
On a personal level I don't see a problem with fishing as long as care is taken in handling the fish and the tackle is correct. I do however see the point people are making regarding inferiority etc.
Ultimately I think this comes down to 'good' fishing and 'bad' fishing. There are many fisherman out there who care passionately about our aquatic ecosystems. However, it seems to be there are far more who would rather see the fish suffer in pursuit of their next big catch. As an example I was surveying a riparian system (I work in ecological conservation) and happened to be speaking to someone who fished the river. He mentioned an otter had been spotted on the river in the last couple of months. I said that was excellent news as otter moving into a river have been shown to move on the mink. "Bullshit" he said. "The otter should be shot because it eats the fish".
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Are you being serious, do you really believe that?
Of course I do, I am not stupid enough to think all fish are generated this way, nature plays its part however I only fish for large carp and unless some of the species are put in the lakes by man they would never appear. Plus the waters I belong too have a lake where all small silver fish are transferred to when caught so for example on a day when they hold a match, at the end instead of the anglers putting the fish back into the lake they came from they are transferred to another lake.
Fishing is a very complex sport nowadays and anglers target specific fish on certain days and at different times of the year. I know people who pay in the region of 2k per season to fish for certain carp and ibborg will tell you what people pay to fish in France.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch something, bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
I've always wondered what the secret ingredient was.
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Are you being serious, do you really believe that?
Of course I do, I am not stupid enough to think all fish are generated this way, nature plays its part however I only fish for large carp and unless some of the species are put in the lakes by man they would never appear. Plus the waters I belong too have a lake where all small silver fish are transferred to when caught so for example on a day when they hold a match, at the end instead of the anglers putting the fish back into the lake they came from they are transferred to another lake.
Fishing is a very complex sport nowadays and anglers target specific fish on certain days and at different times of the year. I know people who pay in the region of 2k per season to fish for certain carp and ibborg will tell you what people pay to fish in France.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch something, bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
And there was I wondering why I never catch anything!
I am a vegetarian and don't seek respect for being so. Some are bewildered by vegetarians, some don't understand it, some see it as no big deal, some are curious as to how it all works out, some despise vegetarians, some respect them, some vegetarians evangelise, some keep it on the down low. At the end of the day each adult person more or less decides for themselves what kind of relationship they have with other species who share the planet, and how much they see that relationship as important.
I see it as no big deal.....do as you wish, it doesn't effect me. I neither respect or disrespect vegetarians, just get a bit narked at the ones who seem to think they are somehow taking the moral high ground and then pontificate about it.......just do your thing and leave it at that, no harm done.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch somethingany kind of fish I can., bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
Minus the jizzing in the bait, this is pretty much my exact effort at fishing. Though I will confirm I do use a carp rig.
I am a vegetarian and don't seek respect for being so. Some are bewildered by vegetarians, some don't understand it, some see it as no big deal, some are curious as to how it all works out, some despise vegetarians, some respect them, some vegetarians evangelise, some keep it on the down low. At the end of the day each adult person more or less decides for themselves what kind of relationship they have with other species who share the planet, and how much they see that relationship as important.
I see it as no big deal.....do as you wish, it doesn't effect me. I neither respect or disrespect vegetarians, just get a bit narked at the ones who seem to think they are somehow taking the moral high ground and then pontificate about it.......just do your thing and leave it at that, no harm done.
It's the one's that tell you they're vegan at every opportunity that really push the acceptable limits.
I shall try to deal with the 'telling you they are vegetarian/vegan it narks me' thing.
If the context is that you are told out of a clear blue sky then it is weird and annoying.
So if for example you and I are talking about fixing a dripping tap and I suddenly say 'I need to tell you at this point I am a vegetarian/vegan, carry on', then that would be incongruous to say the least.
I am assuming that kind of thing is the context irritated or narked carnivores get such information. I have some sympathy with that, bringing up personal, or moral things during a bit of plumbing or whatever is nothing to do with anything.
If I mention that I am a vegetarian there tends to be some context or reason. Like if a work colleague said 'lets all go out for a meal at an Angus Steak House, or a Nandos, I might say 'not really for me' if pressed I might say 'well I am a vegetarian'. There is usually some kind of context for such a revelation isn't there? Or is it the experience of carnivores/omnivores that vegetarians/vegans randomly announce it at unexpected moments?
Other contexts are usually all food related, enquiries in a restaurant, being sent to prison, being offered a sausage...that type of thing. if mentioning being a vegetarian is seen as an opening gambit in a moral high ground debate then maybe it is an issue for the person who hears it rather than the person who says it, or at least equally so.
I shall try to deal with the 'telling you they are vegetarian/vegan it narks me' thing.
If the context is that you are told out of a clear blue sky then it is weird and annoying.
If I mention that I am a vegetarian there tends to be some context or reason. Like if a work colleague said 'lets all go out for a meal at an Angus Steak House, or a Nandos, I might say 'not really for me' if pressed I might say 'well I am a vegetarian'. There is usually some kind of context for such a revelation isn't there? Or is it the experience of carnivores/omnivores that vegetarians/vegans randomly announce it at unexpected moments?
"Shall we go to Nando's?"
"Oh I can't I'm a vegan"
"Okay how about we go to x y or z restaurant instead?"
"They only do vegetarian, not vegan food"
"Fine let's sit here and eat rice crackers then"
It's vegan's that irk me really. Maybe I'm harsh on veggies as a result of this.
The fish that come out of the carp lakes that I know over here are fed all year with top quality pellet, have the water checked every 3 months, get a thorough examination when they're caught to the point where a Betadine type ointment is put on the wound where the hook was and for all that each fish comes out a max of about 2 to 3 times per year (if at all).
Just because the fish are well treated and maintained, doesn't make it okay to stick a hook in their mouth.
Don't they say, one common denominator that is often found in serial killers, is their cruelty to animals.
"Where were you on the night of......."<(;-)>
"Jim Rose, professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wisconsin, who led the project, said: ‘In spite of large injections of acid or bee venom, that would cause severe pain to a human, the trout showed remarkably little effect.’ Fish also resumed normal activity within minutes of surgical procedures, as well as after being caught and released back into the water. Prof Rose added: ‘It is highly improbable that fish can experience pain."
A fish lacks a developed central nervous system and seemingly feels as much pain as a lettuce if cut. Eating a lettuce isn't cruel by reference to the belief system of vegetarianism because a convenient line is drawn between life which it is cruel to exploit and life which, because it cannot be compared to the human experience of life, has no value which protects it from being exploited to infinity. A vegetarian does not question his/her ethics by eating the seeds of plants before the life has even had the chance to sprout, grow and produce flowers to feed the bees and butterflies. How cruel, how inconsiderate to nature, to starve it of its life force.
Cruelty in the eyes of vegetarians is widely drawn, until it abruptly stops when they hit their arbitrary perception of valid lifeforms, where their ethical values would otherwise be challenged by their own logic.
It is a belief system based on arbitrary rules that define the belief system, like Judaism and Islam. For that reason vegetarians and vegans have no more right than religious extremists to preach that non-conformists are committing evil and are going to hell.
Preaching against angling as a cruel sport is the equivalent of a Jehovah Witnesses knocking on my door telling me I am sinful. Sorry, I don't want to be converted, I don't share your belief system.
Shuts door and walks away........and isn't responding to anymore knocks, even if they are wind-ups.
The fact that you and other anglers get pleasure out of it, I think says something about your attitude toward animals and the like.
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
If it was not for anglers the fish would not be there in the first place so to suggest we are just "walking over" and harming fish is misguided.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
Are you being serious, do you really believe that?
Of course I do, I am not stupid enough to think all fish are generated this way, nature plays its part however I only fish for large carp and unless some of the species are put in the lakes by man they would never appear. Plus the waters I belong too have a lake where all small silver fish are transferred to when caught so for example on a day when they hold a match, at the end instead of the anglers putting the fish back into the lake they came from they are transferred to another lake.
Fishing is a very complex sport nowadays and anglers target specific fish on certain days and at different times of the year. I know people who pay in the region of 2k per season to fish for certain carp and ibborg will tell you what people pay to fish in France.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch something, bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
Exactly, if man didn't put them in the lake, you wouldn't be able to fish them, wouldn't that be great!
Comments
What right do we humans think we have, to walk over and inflict our ways, wishes and cruelty on other creatures, that can't retaliate or defend themselves?
We're supposed to be a civilised race and society, I'd question that!
Animals are animals.In the wild, an animal usually dies in wild-eyed agony while another animal rips its throat out and eats its stomach while it is still alive.The nearest it gets to being 'happy' is when this isn't happening to it, or it's eating something.
People think chimps are clever because they poke a twig in an anthill, pull it out and eat the ants off it.Bravo cheetah, now imagine how good they'd be if only you could work out how to deep fry them and sprinkle them with a little salt...
That said, I don't like animals suffering unnecessarily at our hand but I do like eating them.
That quote above - you do realise that humans are guilty of doing everything mentioned to their fellow man. We're not just singling out animals...
No, sorry, scrub some of that. He seems to be in Wyoming, he's not a Cheesehead as reported by Dipps. He's also a Professor Emeritus. To you and me that means he's retired. But I guess he's still looking for something to fill his time.
Surprise, surprise, it seems august bodies such as Angling Matters and the Angling Trust in the States are keen on his point of view, anyway, you get the picture. You may wish to ask yourself whether this "research" is wholly unbiased.
Notwithstanding any of that, fishing still seems an utterly dreary way of spending your free time. With a little vomit thrown in for good measure if offshore fishing is involved.
The waters I belong too and visit invest a lot of money and time in stocking the lakes with fish purchased from fish farms and the members put a lot of hours into working parties to help keep the bank side in order.
I could say I can stab my neighbour because I can but that doesn't make it okay, does it.
We should be renamed animals, because our behaviour and attitude, is just like those, that you say spend all day ripping out each other's throats and stomachs.
In many respect isn't that what humans do too?
Would members of their society who ask for us to be treated with respect and dignity and farmed be considered irrational and dismissed as nut jobs?
Well......that's just about as pretentious a statement as you can get......talk about taking the moral high ground.
FFS!
Some are bewildered by vegetarians, some don't understand it, some see it as no big deal, some are curious as to how it all works out, some despise vegetarians, some respect them, some vegetarians evangelise, some keep it on the down low.
At the end of the day each adult person more or less decides for themselves what kind of relationship they have with other species who share the planet, and how much they see that relationship as important.
Fishing is a very complex sport nowadays and anglers target specific fish on certain days and at different times of the year. I know people who pay in the region of 2k per season to fish for certain carp and ibborg will tell you what people pay to fish in France.
The days are long gone when an angler turns up on the bank side, tosses in a bit of bait and hopes to catch something, bait, tackle and conditions narrow this down to allow anglers to target a fish of choice.
Without the licence money from angling our rivers would have a severe lack of funding for investment. This funding doesn't just go into improving fish stocks, it goes into all sorts of management regarding our freshwaters. If that money wasn't there then the quality of our rivers would dramatically decline affecting animals and human wellbeing.
In comparison to rivers I do find fishing lakes cruel and that's before they're fished. Our rivers work at carrying capacity. That is, our stocks of all species groups are maintained at what our rivers can carry. Lakes on the other hand are now so heavily stocked and fished that the fish in there are constantly starving and if they're not, the food needing to be thrown in reduces water quality and makes these places ripe for disease.
On a personal level I don't see a problem with fishing as long as care is taken in handling the fish and the tackle is correct. I do however see the point people are making regarding inferiority etc.
Ultimately I think this comes down to 'good' fishing and 'bad' fishing. There are many fisherman out there who care passionately about our aquatic ecosystems. However, it seems to be there are far more who would rather see the fish suffer in pursuit of their next big catch. As an example I was surveying a riparian system (I work in ecological conservation) and happened to be speaking to someone who fished the river. He mentioned an otter had been spotted on the river in the last couple of months. I said that was excellent news as otter moving into a river have been shown to move on the mink. "Bullshit" he said. "The otter should be shot because it eats the fish".
I neither respect or disrespect vegetarians, just get a bit narked at the ones who seem to think they are somehow taking the moral high ground and then pontificate about it.......just do your thing and leave it at that, no harm done.
I shall try to deal with the 'telling you they are vegetarian/vegan it narks me' thing.
If the context is that you are told out of a clear blue sky then it is weird and annoying.
So if for example you and I are talking about fixing a dripping tap and I suddenly say 'I need to tell you at this point I am a vegetarian/vegan, carry on', then that would be incongruous to say the least.
I am assuming that kind of thing is the context irritated or narked carnivores get such information. I have some sympathy with that, bringing up personal, or moral things during a bit of plumbing or whatever is nothing to do with anything.
If I mention that I am a vegetarian there tends to be some context or reason. Like if a work colleague said 'lets all go out for a meal at an Angus Steak House, or a Nandos, I might say 'not really for me' if pressed I might say 'well I am a vegetarian'. There is usually some kind of context for such a revelation isn't there? Or is it the experience of carnivores/omnivores that vegetarians/vegans randomly announce it at unexpected moments?
Other contexts are usually all food related, enquiries in a restaurant, being sent to prison, being offered a sausage...that type of thing. if mentioning being a vegetarian is seen as an opening gambit in a moral high ground debate then maybe it is an issue for the person who hears it rather than the person who says it, or at least equally so.
"Oh I can't I'm a vegan"
"Okay how about we go to x y or z restaurant instead?"
"They only do vegetarian, not vegan food"
"Fine let's sit here and eat rice crackers then"
It's vegan's that irk me really. Maybe I'm harsh on veggies as a result of this.