Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
In Spain if you spend 500k on a property you basically get the right to live and travel in Schengen. For some that in itself is worth it
Only 280k in Portugal.
I'm looking to buy a place in Mallorca, partly for that very reason.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Personally having seen many people buy (predominantly in Spain but also Portugal) they've not been great investments, most have lost money.
One of my mates just bought a beautiful place in Spain, off out there in early September, can ask him who he used, but it was £1.5m and not so much a financial investment but a holiday home that he's renting out to try and cover as many costs as possible, but still unlikely to make any money in the short or long term.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
In Spain if you spend 500k on a property you basically get the right to live and travel in Schengen. For some that in itself is worth it
Thats not entirely correct, although it gives you unrestricted access to Spain as long as you spend one day there a year, any other Schengen country you are still restricted to the 90 in 180 days.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
Few things for us:
- Live and work in Asia. Plan to retire in Spain or Portugal. Possibly France but unlikely.
- Want a holiday home as wife and kids head back to Europe in holidays. We have large family so will rent to cover costs.
- Fortunate to be able to save a reasonable amount of money in current role. Have a few properties in UK and some cash in funds so was considering something different.
- Haven’t looked into it in detail but a colleague is buying in Portugal to get EU passport (not sure exact name). Apparently all earnings from offshore are tax free too.
Was just interested to see if anyone has been through the experience as have heard some horror stories.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
Few things for us:
- Live and work in Asia. Plan to retire in Spain or Portugal. Possibly France but unlikely.
- Want a holiday home as wife and kids head back to Europe in holidays. We have large family so will rent to cover costs.
- Fortunate to be able to save a reasonable amount of money in current role. Have a few properties in UK and some cash in funds so was considering something different.
- Haven’t looked into it in detail but a colleague is buying in Portugal to get EU passport (not sure exact name). Apparently all earnings from offshore are tax free too.
Was just interested to see if anyone has been through the experience as have heard some horror stories.
I’m not at all sure you are right about the tax element!!
I was seriously considering using some of the sale from my house in London this way, but the overall hassle, paperwork, constant liaison with estste agents etc put me off pretty quickly, and instead I’m putting a fair bit into making our main house here in Prague energy sustainable. But you are a multiple home owner already so you are more used to it. I guess its partly my age, want to keep it simple.
I really envy one of my mates who has a house, with a pool just north of Lisbon. Its a complex built around a golf course. He’s a big golfer, of course, but being retired he’s also able to head out there in May in their car using the ferry, and leave it there for the summer, if they need to slip home for a few days the airport isnt far away. Because they are there half the year they have good friends in the complex and friendly faces in the local restaurants and shops. That’s the way to do it, IMO, and good for him, he worked too bloody hard and his health suffered but we spent a week out there with them and it was obvious that he had “invested” wisely regardless of the financials - at the time we were there Portugal was still in remission after the financial crisis, and property prices had been hammered.
Referring to the notion that there may be a big crash Id like peoples thoughts on the following .......
If ( as is so ) my pension is all tied up in one place. ie Being invested on my behalf in a SIPP fund. And if my strategy is to be in it for the very long haul i.e. until I pop my mortal clogs. What point is there me getting agitated about the highs and lows of the market. Unless I or someone I trust is going to very actively move money from investments to cash at the correct time ( I know I am not going to do that) then surely I just have to trust those who manage my portfolio to get it right over the long term.
The firm I use have averaged net 10% annual growth after fees over the last 25 years so I cant see dropping in and out of the market will really help.
I'm not a wiser head, but I'd say your conclusion is the right one. If you have a good time to go before retirement then leave it. When you say 'out of the market' I assume you mean selling equities/funds for either bonds or cash on deposit. With inflation where it is, thats a pretty good way of guaranteeing a real-terms loss, and how do you know when its a good time to get back in? Trying to time the markets is an impossible task. I'd ride out any bumps - look to long term returns as you have done and sit tight. As you say, your firm has averaged 10% and i bet they've had some bad years as well as some good ones. Sounds to me that they have an idea what they are doing.
Referring to the notion that there may be a big crash Id like peoples thoughts on the following .......
If ( as is so ) my pension is all tied up in one place. ie Being invested on my behalf in a SIPP fund. And if my strategy is to be in it for the very long haul i.e. until I pop my mortal clogs. What point is there me getting agitated about the highs and lows of the market. Unless I or someone I trust is going to very actively move money from investments to cash at the correct time ( I know I am not going to do that) then surely I just have to trust those who manage my portfolio to get it right over the long term.
The firm I use have averaged net 10% annual growth after fees over the last 25 years so I cant see dropping in and out of the market will really help.
Any wiser heads want to comment
Where I am. My SIPP is with Curtis Banks (was Suffolk Life) and managed by Investec. I’m only 58 so in it for the long haul too. Just have to trust them to manage it correctly and currently six years in I have no complaints. They and my IFA are always there to chat too if I have any concerns.
Referring to the notion that there may be a big crash Id like peoples thoughts on the following .......
If ( as is so ) my pension is all tied up in one place. ie Being invested on my behalf in a SIPP fund. And if my strategy is to be in it for the very long haul i.e. until I pop my mortal clogs. What point is there me getting agitated about the highs and lows of the market. Unless I or someone I trust is going to very actively move money from investments to cash at the correct time ( I know I am not going to do that) then surely I just have to trust those who manage my portfolio to get it right over the long term.
The firm I use have averaged net 10% annual growth after fees over the last 25 years so I cant see dropping in and out of the market will really help.
Any wiser heads want to comment
Assuming you don't wish to start drawing anytime soon and are still contributing then yes probably best to just leave it.
I'm not a wiser head, but I'd say your conclusion is the right one. If you have a good time to go before retirement then leave it. When you say 'out of the market' I assume you mean selling equities/funds for either bonds or cash on deposit. With inflation where it is, thats a pretty good way of guaranteeing a real-terms loss, and how do you know when its a good time to get back in? Trying to time the markets is an impossible task. I'd ride out any bumps - look to long term returns as you have done and sit tight. As you say, your firm has averaged 10% and i bet they've had some bad years as well as some good ones. Sounds to me that they have an idea what they are doing.
@WishIdStayedinthePub put it) and keeping the proceeds in cash for now. Beyond that, I don't think there is much a mug punter can do. The only other thing to add to IdleHans excellent summary is the old reminder that there's soooo much money out there, which needs a home, and it won’t be on the sidelines for long, even if there is a big dip.
I'll try to dig out the graph that shows all the predictions of crashes since 2009 as it's illuminating.
As has been attributed to a few people from Nostradamus to Logi Berra, forecasting is very difficult, particularly when it's about the future. I just happen to think the stopped clock might be right this time. If - a big if, and we'll get a view on Friday from Jackson Hole - central banks hold their nerve, there's a lot of money that's going to be sucked out of the system over the next year and that has to depress asset prices.
I personally think ending cheap money is a good thing, albeit that it's been so long coming it could be very painful unless done very slowly. But cheap money is behind many of the evils in our modern world, including unaffordable house prices, piss-poor pension income, and massive misallocation of capital to low-risk, unproductive uses, such as share buy-backs, management share options and leveraged asset stripping of utilities.
If I were to guess, central banks will lose their nerve, not least because none of them have really ever had their so-called independence tested. But I think they will start out with the right intentions, so it's worth having a bit of cash on the sidelines to pick up bargains.
But I wouldn't sell everything - the supply chain will get fixed and commodity prices will fall, China has a Covid climb-down option in October, even the Ukraine war might come to some conclusion. All that will be priced forward by markets: as a friend recently pointed out, the lowest day in the market during the pandemic was the day that the government announced the FIRST lockdown. Things got much worse after that but the market never went lower.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Personally having seen many people buy (predominantly in Spain but also Portugal) they've not been great investments, most have lost money.
One of my mates just bought a beautiful place in Spain, off out there in early September, can ask him who he used, but it was £1.5m and not so much a financial investment but a holiday home that he's renting out to try and cover as many costs as possible, but still unlikely to make any money in the short or long term.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
In Spain if you spend 500k on a property you basically get the right to live and travel in Schengen. For some that in itself is worth it
Thats not entirely correct, although it gives you unrestricted access to Spain as long as you spend one day there a year, any other Schengen country you are still restricted to the 90 in 180 days.
That's not right AFAIK. The Golden visa allows you to stay as much as you want, but if you stay over 182 days in any year then you must become a tax resident and pay taxes in Spain on all your worldwide earnings.
Important to note that with the Spanish Golden visa if you wish to obtain it via a property purchase > €500k that property must be in the name of the person applying not joint ownership (not sure what happens when it's €1 million plus). Once granted the person who applies for the visa can bring family members with them though.
Also remember that you are likely to pay around another 10% on top of purchase price in taxes and fees.
Edit: just reread you post and I realised I misread it so you may be right. I'll check.
Yep, you're correct, apologies. I didn't realise the 90 in 180 days you were referring to was in the Schengen zone and not just Spain itself. What I wrote above applies to Spain only.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Personally having seen many people buy (predominantly in Spain but also Portugal) they've not been great investments, most have lost money.
One of my mates just bought a beautiful place in Spain, off out there in early September, can ask him who he used, but it was £1.5m and not so much a financial investment but a holiday home that he's renting out to try and cover as many costs as possible, but still unlikely to make any money in the short or long term.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
In Spain if you spend 500k on a property you basically get the right to live and travel in Schengen. For some that in itself is worth it
Thats not entirely correct, although it gives you unrestricted access to Spain as long as you spend one day there a year, any other Schengen country you are still restricted to the 90 in 180 days.
That's not right AFAIK. The Golden visa allows you to stay as much as you want, but if you stay over 182 days in any year then you must become a tax resident and pay taxes in Spain on all your worldwide earnings.
Important to note that with the Spanish Golden visa if you wish to obtain it via a property purchase > €500k that property must be in the name of the person applying not joint ownership (not sure what happens when it's €1 million plus). Once granted the person who applies for the visa can bring family members with them though.
Also remember that you are likely to pay around another 10% on top of purchase price in taxes and fees.
Edit: just reread you post and I realised I misread it so you may be right. I'll check.
Yep, you're correct, apologies. I didn't realise the 90 in 180 days you were referring to was in the Schengen zone and not just Spain itself. What I wrote above applies to Spain only.
Also, the €500k must be self-financed so for example if you buy a property for a million then half can be financed and the other half mortgaged.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Personally having seen many people buy (predominantly in Spain but also Portugal) they've not been great investments, most have lost money.
One of my mates just bought a beautiful place in Spain, off out there in early September, can ask him who he used, but it was £1.5m and not so much a financial investment but a holiday home that he's renting out to try and cover as many costs as possible, but still unlikely to make any money in the short or long term.
Looking to buy a holiday home in Spain, Portugal or France as an investment. Does anyone here have any tips on good agents to use?
Sorry, no knowledge or tips on agents etc but interested in hearing why do you feel it's a good investment to buy property abroad ?
Have you already maxed out your Pension & your ISA's. Do you already live abroad or in one of those countries ? If not, what do you know about the tax on income & capital gains both in that country & in the UK (if you are a UK tax payer)
In Spain if you spend 500k on a property you basically get the right to live and travel in Schengen. For some that in itself is worth it
Thats not entirely correct, although it gives you unrestricted access to Spain as long as you spend one day there a year, any other Schengen country you are still restricted to the 90 in 180 days.
We had a house in the south of France for around 14 years, got rid of it just before the first covid lockdown. It hardly went up in value at all and cost us around 4k a year in fees and taxes. Your spending money goes a lot further in Spain or Portugal when you are out and about.
Bought a rental in Norfolk instead, so its making money rather than costing us.
A friend of mine recently moved to Madeira and was a strong advocate for retirement.
There's two different aspects to the Portuguese system. One is the residency side, with a minimum EUR 250k investment (which doesn't have to be property, can be financial, business, charity). I think the 'minimum' bit depends on where you put the money (and some property locations have been excluded due to over-heating). You then need to spend a minimum of 14 days per two years and either apply for citizenship after five years or re-apply.
The other is tax residency, which you can only get after residency and under certain qualifications, which has low, flat rate tax rates: 10% on pension income and 20% other income plus social security. You need to stay 183 days per year, though apparently this isn't strictly monitored.
As has been attributed to a few people from Nostradamus to Logi Berra, forecasting is very difficult, particularly when it's about the future. I just happen to think the stopped clock might be right this time. If - a big if, and we'll get a view on Friday from Jackson Hole - central banks hold their nerve, there's a lot of money that's going to be sucked out of the system over the next year and that has to depress asset prices."
Jackson Hole last Friday confirmed that we are in a bear market. There will be some bounces but the general direction is down for a while. Which makes sense when you see employment still rising in the States at the same time as businesses here are dealing with 8x rises in energy costs. Long way to go before rates stop rising.
As has been attributed to a few people from Nostradamus to Logi Berra, forecasting is very difficult, particularly when it's about the future. I just happen to think the stopped clock might be right this time. If - a big if, and we'll get a view on Friday from Jackson Hole - central banks hold their nerve, there's a lot of money that's going to be sucked out of the system over the next year and that has to depress asset prices."
Jackson Hole last Friday confirmed that we are in a bear market. There will be some bounces but the general direction is down for a while. Which makes sense when you see employment still rising in the States at the same time as businesses here are dealing with 8x rises in energy costs. Long way to go before rates stop rising.
I see that Charter Savings Bank now offer a one year fixed rate of 3.25%. For a senior person that starts to look like an attractive alternative to the fund portfolio. The question raised by your last sentence though, is whether there will soon be an even better offer. And at the same time, if you are right about the direction of markets then there's probably a 50 % chance that in a year's time the average portfolio won't be more than 3.25% higher than now...
Comments
One of my mates just bought a beautiful place in Spain, off out there in early September, can ask him who he used, but it was £1.5m and not so much a financial investment but a holiday home that he's renting out to try and cover as many costs as possible, but still unlikely to make any money in the short or long term.
Thats not entirely correct, although it gives you unrestricted access to Spain as long as you spend one day there a year, any other Schengen country you are still restricted to the 90 in 180 days.
- Live and work in Asia. Plan to retire in Spain or Portugal. Possibly France but unlikely.
If ( as is so ) my pension is all tied up in one place. ie Being invested on my behalf in a SIPP fund. And if my strategy is to be in it for the very long haul i.e. until I pop my mortal clogs. What point is there me getting agitated about the highs and lows of the market. Unless I or someone I trust is going to very actively move money from investments to cash at the correct time ( I know I am not going to do that) then surely I just have to trust those who manage my portfolio to get it right over the long term.
The firm I use have averaged net 10% annual growth after fees over the last 25 years so I cant see dropping in and out of the market will really help.
Any wiser heads want to comment
As has been attributed to a few people from Nostradamus to Logi Berra, forecasting is very difficult, particularly when it's about the future. I just happen to think the stopped clock might be right this time. If - a big if, and we'll get a view on Friday from Jackson Hole - central banks hold their nerve, there's a lot of money that's going to be sucked out of the system over the next year and that has to depress asset prices.
I personally think ending cheap money is a good thing, albeit that it's been so long coming it could be very painful unless done very slowly. But cheap money is behind many of the evils in our modern world, including unaffordable house prices, piss-poor pension income, and massive misallocation of capital to low-risk, unproductive uses, such as share buy-backs, management share options and leveraged asset stripping of utilities.
If I were to guess, central banks will lose their nerve, not least because none of them have really ever had their so-called independence tested. But I think they will start out with the right intentions, so it's worth having a bit of cash on the sidelines to pick up bargains.
But I wouldn't sell everything - the supply chain will get fixed and commodity prices will fall, China has a Covid climb-down option in October, even the Ukraine war might come to some conclusion. All that will be priced forward by markets: as a friend recently pointed out, the lowest day in the market during the pandemic was the day that the government announced the FIRST lockdown. Things got much worse after that but the market never went lower.
Important to note that with the Spanish Golden visa if you wish to obtain it via a property purchase > €500k that property must be in the name of the person applying not joint ownership (not sure what happens when it's €1 million plus). Once granted the person who applies for the visa can bring family members with them though.
Also remember that you are likely to pay around another 10% on top of purchase price in taxes and fees.
Edit: just reread you post and I realised I misread it so you may be right. I'll check.
Yep, you're correct, apologies. I didn't realise the 90 in 180 days you were referring to was in the Schengen zone and not just Spain itself. What I wrote above applies to Spain only.
Also, the €500k must be self-financed so for example if you buy a property for a million then half can be financed and the other half mortgaged.
There's two different aspects to the Portuguese system. One is the residency side, with a minimum EUR 250k investment (which doesn't have to be property, can be financial, business, charity). I think the 'minimum' bit depends on where you put the money (and some property locations have been excluded due to over-heating). You then need to spend a minimum of 14 days per two years and either apply for citizenship after five years or re-apply.
The other is tax residency, which you can only get after residency and under certain qualifications, which has low, flat rate tax rates: 10% on pension income and 20% other income plus social security. You need to stay 183 days per year, though apparently this isn't strictly monitored.
I'll be selling the majority of mine this month I think so unlikely to win going forward.
Jackson Hole last Friday confirmed that we are in a bear market. There will be some bounces but the general direction is down for a while. Which makes sense when you see employment still rising in the States at the same time as businesses here are dealing with 8x rises in energy costs. Long way to go before rates stop rising.
You have nicked it all 😁
Not bad but as another Lifer posted, we'll be looking at 1 yr fixed rate deals for at least half of our PBs.