I'm all for repeat referendums. But in the interest of fairness and as it was nearly two years since the last one, I think the scots should go first. ;-)
I've not denigrated anybody as stupid or racist. I don't need to as the points I make either stand up or fall on their merits when challenged.
My point is that the petition is now going up at the rate of 100,000 per hour and the people are very motivated.
A week is a long time in politics so who knows where we will be in August?!
Anybody can sign that petition including people not eligible to vote and indeed people who don't live in The UK so it's not a real reflection of voters.
I've not denigrated anybody as stupid or racist. I don't need to as the points I make either stand up or fall on their merits when challenged.
My point is that the petition is now going up at the rate of 100,000 per hour and the people are very motivated.
A week is a long time in politics so who knows where we will be in August?!
If it gets past 16m (which is the Remain referendum figure) then maybe it would be relevant...
I still wouldn't give it any credibility given anyone not eligible to vote can sign this petition.
I've not denigrated anybody as stupid or racist. I don't need to as the points I make either stand up or fall on their merits when challenged.
My point is that the petition is now going up at the rate of 100,000 per hour and the people are very motivated.
A week is a long time in politics so who knows where we will be in August?!
Anybody can sign that petition including people not eligible to vote and indeed people who don't live in The UK so it's not a real reflection of voters.
I've not denigrated anybody as stupid or racist. I don't need to as the points I make either stand up or fall on their merits when challenged.
My point is that the petition is now going up at the rate of 100,000 per hour and the people are very motivated.
A week is a long time in politics so who knows where we will be in August?!
If it gets past 16m (which is the Remain referendum figure) then maybe it would be relevant...
I still wouldn't give it any credibility given anyone not eligible to vote can sign this petition.
There are no checks to ensure people signing the petition can actually vote in the UK, thus, worthless.
Its taken THREE days for this petition to reach 2.5m
The polls are only open for less than 24-hours... Maybe if it reached that figure a bit quicker and if it wasnt fraudulant maybe then people would take notice!!
Some people find it easier to sign a petition on line, than go 400 meters/yards in pouring rain to put their cross in a democratic vote. For the first time in 40 years every vote mattered.
Its taken THREE days for this petition to reach 2.5m
The polls are only open for less than 24-hours... Maybe if it reached that figure a bit quicker and if it wasnt fraudulant maybe then people would take notice!!
Well the Remain camp are saved the Liberals have announced that their main election promise will be to rejoin Europe.......oh sorry it is the Liberals.
So there is now a petition for a rematch seeing that the Battle of Hastings was clearly won by the cheating opposition, their archer was well offside when he shot the English king and should have been flagged for it.
We are living in interesting times. None of the opportunists running leave have a clue and clearly Boris/Gove were expecting to lose narrowly (as was Farage). I reluctantly voted remain because I was worried about the tide of racism that this would unleash. I'm not a fan of most of what the EU is about - it's a club for big business with rules designed to help them, with some useful things thrown in by accident. I expected Leave to win narrowly, and am sad to say the tide of racism and hate is well and truly here now. But the vote has happened. It can't be rerun. We have to live with the consequences. Some of them may even be positive, though I'm struggling to think what they might be, as "we've got our country back" is just an empty slogan. Do Leavers really think / hope that immigration will stop by leaving the EU? It will only stop when the economy is so bad no one wants to come here and we have emigration instead. The UK is set for a messy divorce and I expect more hate to flow from that: it won't be just the Europeans / Black Britons I know getting it in the neck and being asked when they are leaving, it will be the Scots and Irish as well.
But the answer to the hate and prejudice isn't to rerun a vote until you get an answer you like, though I am aware that had remain won narrowly that is exactly what Farage and co would have been arguing. It's to counter that hate and fight it. A lot will depend on who takes over from Cameron and whether they seek to repress those tendencies in England and Wales or fan the flames. Because the referendum has shown that facts don't count, so there's actually no reasoning with some people.
We are living in interesting times. None of the opportunists running leave have a clue and clearly Boris/Gove were expecting to lose narrowly (as was Farage). I reluctantly voted remain because I was worried about the tide of racism that this would unleash. I'm not a fan of most of what the EU is about - it's a club for big business with rules designed to help them, with some useful things thrown in by accident. I expected Leave to win narrowly, and am sad to say the tide of racism and hate is well and truly here now. But the vote has happened. It can't be rerun. We have to live with the consequences. Some of them may even be positive, though I'm struggling to think what they might be, as "we've got our country back" is just an empty slogan. Do Leavers really think / hope that immigration will stop by leaving the EU? It will only stop when the economy is so bad no one wants to come here and we have emigration instead. The UK is set for a messy divorce and I expect more hate to flow from that: it won't be just the Europeans / Black Britons I know getting it in the neck and being asked when they are leaving, it will be the Scots and Irish as well.
But the answer to the hate and prejudice isn't to rerun a vote until you get an answer you like, though I am aware that had remain won narrowly that is exactly what Farage and co would have been arguing. It's to counter that hate and fight it. A lot will depend on who takes over from Cameron and whether they seek to repress those tendencies in England and Wales or fan the flames. Because the referendum has shown that facts don't count, so there's actually no reasoning with some people.
Some of the interviews with some of the brexit voters who have misgivings are all over the internet. I haven't heard any bandwagon jumping of remainers saying that in retrospect they wish they had voted leave, either way the damage is done.
But the answer to the hate and prejudice isn't to rerun a vote until you get an answer you like, though I am aware that had remain won narrowly that is exactly what Farage and co would have been arguing.
If only I could predict football scores as well as this. It appears the petition for a second referendum was started a month ago by a leave campaigner who thought leave would lose.
Some of the interviews with some of the brexit voters who have misgivings are all over the internet. I haven't heard any bandwagon jumping of remainers saying that in retrospect they wish they had voted leave, either way the damage is done.
I have. There were a couple on the news yesterday. And their reasons centred around how amongst much dummy spitting they've seen a reaction from some in remain that have no business in a democratic society.
It's seems like some people believe in democracy, until they find themselves in the minority.
So standard disclaimer, I'm a Communist, at no point do I call myself a "Democratic Socialist" and I'm not a big fan of democracy.*
The thing about democracy is that it's not permanent, you're not voting for Monarchical options.
I'm not saying now is the time for a re-vote, but to say "Article 50 must be enacted now, and any new Government MUST do it" is, I think, shortsighted.
There will be another general election in the fall, by which point the early impacts of Brexit will be seen. It may well be that the pound and FTSE remain where they are for a bit, then slowly start to recover. It could be that by that time Britain has been thrown back into a recession. At which point, the electorate would have every right to say "this is not what we signed up for," or, "we were promised something else," or "The EU is shit, but it's better than the alternative." That would be an evolution of thought given more information.
It is of course also possible that center-right Tories and Labour MPs who campaigned to stay are kicked out of office for being wrong, as it is seen that Britain is better separated from the EU.
Nothing is permanent in a democracy, it's what separated it from that which came before.
It's seems like some people believe in democracy, until they find themselves in the minority.
So standard disclaimer, I'm a Communist, at no point do I call myself a "Democratic Socialist" and I'm not a big fan of democracy.*
The thing about democracy is that it's not permanent, you're not voting for Monarchical options.
I'm not saying now is the time for a re-vote, but to say "Article 50 must be enacted now, and any new Government MUST do it" is, I think, shortsighted.
There will be another general election in the fall, by which point the early impacts of Brexit will be seen. It may well be that the pound and FTSE remain where they are for a bit, then slowly start to recover. It could be that by that time Britain has been thrown back into a recession. At which point, the electorate would have every right to say "this is not what we signed up for," or, "we were promised something else," or "The EU is shit, but it's better than the alternative." That would be an evolution of thought given more information.
It is of course also possible that center-right Tories and Labour MPs who campaigned to stay are kicked out of office for being wrong, as it is seen that Britain is better separated from the EU.
Nothing is permanent in a democracy, it's what separated it from that which came before.
*These comments are meant largely tongue-in-cheek
You make some good points, tongue-in-cheek or not.
I believe that democracy is generally a good thing, the will of the people and all that. I also believe that something as important as leaving the EU probably should have been decided on more than a 52%-48% vote. But we could have had endless debates on the exact ratio required, 55/45?, 60/40?, 70/30? Should we count it as a percentage of votes cast or of eligible voters?
In the end, it was a majority vote and the majority has spoken. Democracy rules, for better or worse.
It's seems like some people believe in democracy, until they find themselves in the minority.
So standard disclaimer, I'm a Communist, at no point do I call myself a "Democratic Socialist" and I'm not a big fan of democracy.*
The thing about democracy is that it's not permanent, you're not voting for Monarchical options.
I'm not saying now is the time for a re-vote, but to say "Article 50 must be enacted now, and any new Government MUST do it" is, I think, shortsighted.
There will be another general election in the fall, by which point the early impacts of Brexit will be seen. It may well be that the pound and FTSE remain where they are for a bit, then slowly start to recover. It could be that by that time Britain has been thrown back into a recession. At which point, the electorate would have every right to say "this is not what we signed up for," or, "we were promised something else," or "The EU is shit, but it's better than the alternative." That would be an evolution of thought given more information.
It is of course also possible that center-right Tories and Labour MPs who campaigned to stay are kicked out of office for being wrong, as it is seen that Britain is better separated from the EU.
Nothing is permanent in a democracy, it's what separated it from that which came before.
*These comments are meant largely tongue-in-cheek
You make some good points, tongue-in-cheek or not.
I believe that democracy is generally a good thing, the will of the people and all that. I also believe that something as important as leaving the EU probably should have been decided on more than a 52%-48% vote. But we could have had endless debates on the exact ratio required, 55/45?, 60/40?, 70/30? Should we count it as a percentage of votes cast or of eligible voters?
In the end, it was a majority vote and the majority has spoken. Democracy rules, for better or worse.
But with a topic so divisive even if you set the ratio to 55/45 either side could struggle to reach even that so what do you then do if a vote goes 52/48 in favour of remain?
It's seems like some people believe in democracy, until they find themselves in the minority.
So standard disclaimer, I'm a Communist, at no point do I call myself a "Democratic Socialist" and I'm not a big fan of democracy.*
The thing about democracy is that it's not permanent, you're not voting for Monarchical options.
I'm not saying now is the time for a re-vote, but to say "Article 50 must be enacted now, and any new Government MUST do it" is, I think, shortsighted.
There will be another general election in the fall, by which point the early impacts of Brexit will be seen. It may well be that the pound and FTSE remain where they are for a bit, then slowly start to recover. It could be that by that time Britain has been thrown back into a recession. At which point, the electorate would have every right to say "this is not what we signed up for," or, "we were promised something else," or "The EU is shit, but it's better than the alternative." That would be an evolution of thought given more information.
It is of course also possible that center-right Tories and Labour MPs who campaigned to stay are kicked out of office for being wrong, as it is seen that Britain is better separated from the EU.
Nothing is permanent in a democracy, it's what separated it from that which came before.
*These comments are meant largely tongue-in-cheek
You make some good points, tongue-in-cheek or not.
I believe that democracy is generally a good thing, the will of the people and all that. I also believe that something as important as leaving the EU probably should have been decided on more than a 52%-48% vote. But we could have had endless debates on the exact ratio required, 55/45?, 60/40?, 70/30? Should we count it as a percentage of votes cast or of eligible voters?
In the end, it was a majority vote and the majority has spoken. Democracy rules, for better or worse.
Right, and all that I would add is that democracy rules for now.
Here in the states we have term limits for president and various other heads of individual states (Governors for example). It is to ensure a continuity of democracy, at least in theory.
Where this of course can fail is for large, long term, interdependent decisions, such as we've seen this week. I'm still firmly in the "eh, everything's negotiable" camp, but I understand why those who voted out think that is unfair.
I empathize with those who are saying they wish this was handled by representative democracy instead of direct democracy. Something so complex with so many permutations and such a potential global fall out is something where you would *hope* to consult people who do this for a living, and hope that they play with a straight bat in outlining the benefits and potential pitfalls.
My biggest regret about this election is less-so the result, and moreso that it became a referendum on "financial experts and political elite." I wholeheartedly endorse such distrust in those groups, but this was arguably the worst election possible with which to deliver them a mandate.
I also agree that a 52/48 margin for such a large decision feels incredibly thin, but as you said, what's the right level then?
But, irrespective of the result, should a potentially momentous decision, either keeping things more or less as they are or a huge leap in the dark with potentially dire consequencies, be decided by a simple majority ?
No it should be decided by a democratically elected government with strong leadership, privy to expert advice and all the salient facts and an informed prognosis of the consequences of both options, IMHO
Edited - Wtf do we elect them for if not to make decisions like this?
This country is tired of experts - are you seriously telling me that experts know better?
OU definition of 'expert' .. an annoying drip under pressure ((:>)
This country is tired of experts - are you seriously telling me that experts know better?
Yeah, sod those heart surgeons I'm having my triple bypass done by the bloke next door. After all, the people tired of experts obviously had their brains removed by him.
Comments
But in the interest of fairness and as it was nearly two years since the last one, I think the scots should go first.
;-)
I still wouldn't give it any credibility given anyone not eligible to vote can sign this petition.
There are no checks to ensure people signing the petition can actually vote in the UK, thus, worthless.
The polls are only open for less than 24-hours... Maybe if it reached that figure a bit quicker and if it wasnt fraudulant maybe then people would take notice!!
than go 400 meters/yards in pouring rain to put their cross in a democratic vote.
For the first time in 40 years every vote mattered.
Discuss?
I reluctantly voted remain because I was worried about the tide of racism that this would unleash. I'm not a fan of most of what the EU is about - it's a club for big business with rules designed to help them, with some useful things thrown in by accident. I expected Leave to win narrowly, and am sad to say the tide of racism and hate is well and truly here now.
But the vote has happened. It can't be rerun. We have to live with the consequences. Some of them may even be positive, though I'm struggling to think what they might be, as "we've got our country back" is just an empty slogan. Do Leavers really think / hope that immigration will stop by leaving the EU? It will only stop when the economy is so bad no one wants to come here and we have emigration instead. The UK is set for a messy divorce and I expect more hate to flow from that: it won't be just the Europeans / Black Britons I know getting it in the neck and being asked when they are leaving, it will be the Scots and Irish as well.
But the answer to the hate and prejudice isn't to rerun a vote until you get an answer you like, though I am aware that had remain won narrowly that is exactly what Farage and co would have been arguing. It's to counter that hate and fight it. A lot will depend on who takes over from Cameron and whether they seek to repress those tendencies in England and Wales or fan the flames. Because the referendum has shown that facts don't count, so there's actually no reasoning with some people.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/concern-as-online-call-for-second-brexit-vote-gains-more-than-39/amp/?client=safari#
Some of the interviews with some of the brexit voters who have misgivings are all over the internet. I haven't heard any bandwagon jumping of remainers saying that in retrospect they wish they had voted leave, either way the damage is done.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-petition_uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39
And their reasons centred around how amongst much dummy spitting they've seen a reaction from some in remain that have no business in a democratic society.
The thing about democracy is that it's not permanent, you're not voting for Monarchical options.
I'm not saying now is the time for a re-vote, but to say "Article 50 must be enacted now, and any new Government MUST do it" is, I think, shortsighted.
There will be another general election in the fall, by which point the early impacts of Brexit will be seen. It may well be that the pound and FTSE remain where they are for a bit, then slowly start to recover. It could be that by that time Britain has been thrown back into a recession. At which point, the electorate would have every right to say "this is not what we signed up for," or, "we were promised something else," or "The EU is shit, but it's better than the alternative." That would be an evolution of thought given more information.
It is of course also possible that center-right Tories and Labour MPs who campaigned to stay are kicked out of office for being wrong, as it is seen that Britain is better separated from the EU.
Nothing is permanent in a democracy, it's what separated it from that which came before.
*These comments are meant largely tongue-in-cheek
I believe that democracy is generally a good thing, the will of the people and all that.
I also believe that something as important as leaving the EU probably should have been decided on more than a 52%-48% vote.
But we could have had endless debates on the exact ratio required, 55/45?, 60/40?, 70/30? Should we count it as a percentage of votes cast or of eligible voters?
In the end, it was a majority vote and the majority has spoken. Democracy rules, for better or worse.
Here in the states we have term limits for president and various other heads of individual states (Governors for example). It is to ensure a continuity of democracy, at least in theory.
Where this of course can fail is for large, long term, interdependent decisions, such as we've seen this week. I'm still firmly in the "eh, everything's negotiable" camp, but I understand why those who voted out think that is unfair.
I empathize with those who are saying they wish this was handled by representative democracy instead of direct democracy. Something so complex with so many permutations and such a potential global fall out is something where you would *hope* to consult people who do this for a living, and hope that they play with a straight bat in outlining the benefits and potential pitfalls.
My biggest regret about this election is less-so the result, and moreso that it became a referendum on "financial experts and political elite." I wholeheartedly endorse such distrust in those groups, but this was arguably the worst election possible with which to deliver them a mandate.
I also agree that a 52/48 margin for such a large decision feels incredibly thin, but as you said, what's the right level then?
news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/6/newsid_2499000/2499297.stm
This country is tired of experts - are you seriously telling me that experts know better?
Yeah, sod those heart surgeons I'm having my triple bypass done by the bloke next door. After all, the people tired of experts obviously had their brains removed by him.