Prague. I'm glad that there is a recognition that the mood has changed even quite recently. I feel completely confident in what you guys are doing. Thank you for such an open reply.
BTW some people reported problems with the site, but @rikofold who is at work today has managed to fix it, so please try again if you had problems earlier
BTW some people reported problems with the site, but @rikofold who is at work today has managed to fix it, so please try again if you had problems earlier
Good and accurate write up but it still doesn't explain what the trusts next course of action is going to be.
The statement is a very good one. It ends with 'we need it now'. However the next statement, which I suggest ought to come out very soon, ought to end with the same words with the addition of 'or else'.
The statement is a very good one. It ends with 'we need it now'. However the next statement, which I suggest ought to come out very soon, ought to end with the same words with the addition of 'or else'.
Agreed, more as a rallying call to supporters as I don't think KM and RD care other than avoiding embarrassment.
A welcome communication, but more needs to be done (in the New Year) to consult the Trust membership, its not a survey now its a consultation - very important distinction.
This is also not back to the Valley, its far less black and white - forgive the irony. Its a harder issue because it causes apathy rather than action, altho there are some similarities, those who care (which includes Trust and others) cannot rest and expect forces of old to pick up the pieces afterwards, it may be too late to save the patient by then.
The Trust must make a judgement and soon. It must steer the agenda with the club with a timetable, this cannot be allowed to dally any longer the way it has.
(Edited: because all of us need to step back and enjoy xmas, want to make that clear, am also not criticising intentionally, very hard job, unpaid and people have lives, and theTB do a Sterling job of it)
There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus -- and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it -- that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all!!
I think Katrien clarifying (to an extent) what the strategy is and how she perceives the fans may explain her lack of engagement despite a genuinely superhuman amount of encouragement from the Trust. Personally not sure if it's even worth trying anymore.
I think Katrien clarifying (to an extent) what the strategy is and how she perceives the fans may explain her lack of engagement despite a genuinely superhuman amount of encouragement from the Trust. Personally not sure if it's even worth trying anymore.
You need to pour yourself another drink, take the weekend of, and take some time to reflect. CAFC is in your DNA mate, keep the faith, .......only a fool does not question there faith at times.
I think Katrien clarifying (to an extent) what the strategy is and how she perceives the fans may explain her lack of engagement despite a genuinely superhuman amount of encouragement from the Trust. Personally not sure if it's even worth trying anymore.
You need to pour yourself another drink, take the weekend of, and take some time to reflect. CAFC is in your DNA mate, keep the faith, .......only a fool does not question there faith at times.
Sorry - meant it's not really worth trying to build a meaningful dialogue with Katrien, she clearly has no inclination. She'll never take my love for this football club from me though mate.
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
A few wins and signings come January and the brown nose Roland posse would be coming back out of the woodwork slating the Trust as happened last year ,if they took a more aggressive approach .
As a Trust member they are my DrJekyll side as opposed to my own foaming at the mouth Mr Hyde , so the considered responses and views of the TB I'm happy to run with for now ,it's clearly a thankless task And with all the various campaigns and groups working for supporters in their different ways I salute your undying love and energy for the cause of Charlton Athletic Thank you
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I have to smile at this. How much time does it take to set-up a meeting for the Strategy Group and one for Target 20,000? You send out a set of possible dates and go with the most convenient one. How many players will we be bringing in during January? They may be putting a bow on Tony Watt's sale and holding out for what they can get for Lookman but the incoming warm bodies will already be known and lined-up. It's just delay, delay, delay from KM. Next it will be "we have a relegation battle to fight first" just like last year and the year before. Given how she has deliberately failed to fill a number of senior posts around her in order to take more control, she will be much busier than she should be but she can still manage to float off to Dublin to pontificate about her important position in the world at a nefarious Web Summit.
BTW some people reported problems with the site, but @rikofold who is at work today has managed to fix it, so please try again if you had problems earlier
Its a good statement that starts to reflect the Trust members hardening of attitude towards the owners. It recognises that the ultimate power to improve the situation or not is the club itself. After Katrien Meire's interview, she does make it pretty clear where she stands on supporters and strategy and whether we have any standing to express an opinion at alll. It will be very surprising to see anything different. Still, it is good to see what January 16 transfer window brings before jumping into the deep end.
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
Sorry @rikofold, but that strikes me as a rather complacent view that suggests everything is going quite well on the protest and dialogue front. If so, that is a very generous interpretation of the current position.
Let's look at the dialogue side of things. Unless the Trust has privately seen a much more positive level of open-ness and engagement from Katrien, which it would be useful to know about if that's the case, what has really happened? 1. A massively stage managed fans meeting where she reneged on commitments in respect of the way the meeting was conducted, stuffed the "audience" full of CAFC employees, and guided the debate well away from the truly important and contentious issues. 2) Set up the Target 20k group (an exercise in futility if ever I saw one) where she has yet again misunderstood (wilfully or stupidly) the potential value, and missed out on the chance to get key players on board through adopting a kind of fans forum approach to group representation. Any thing else I can't recall this early?
And what about the protest side of things? Is this really being "capably addressed by other supporters". I really don't mean any offence to those brave souls who have sought to get these rolling but again, I would say that is a very rose tinted view of it. There is a smattering of fans wearing black and white. The first car park protest had a decent-ish turn out but was hardly the loud, raucous, focused display of fan discontent that would make KM worry overmuch. She even had the bad sense to laugh at it. The second one was pretty much a non-event, and even then people were largely hanging around the edges with many put off by the occasional "unacceptable" chants. To @Addickted2The Reds great credit, the 2% protest got good traction but that feels to me a pretty lone success. What I see and hear on this forum and elsewhere is a bunch of very pissed off people with a mixed range of ideas and views as to what forms of protest are "best" but not a great deal of consensus or momentum.
If the Trust really feels that the dialogue route is still a runner I am surprised. KM had shown through every word and deed her disdain for the Trust and indeed for the wider fan base.
The fans are crying out for someone to step up and take an overall co-ordinating role in the protests. They need leading - in selecting the most effective methods, in planning them, in publicising them widely, in supporting them logistically, in actively managing them "on the ground", in funding them. In my view the Trust Board is currently resembling Neville Chamberlain and his appeasement cabinet of the late 1930s when what we really need is a Churchill. The Trust needs to get on a war footing, sort out some crowd funding, set a strategy, put in place plans and tactics to achieve that strategy - buy a fecking megaphone for christ sake and lead the chanting outside the west stand, that would be better than sitting there like a faithful dog waiting for Katrien to throw you the odd tidbit.
As for the snipe at some fans, I do understand that emotion but you have to ask yourself - does the Trust exist to represent only it's members or the wider fan base. If it's the latter, which I believe it should be, than you have to rise above their level, ignore their earlier sniping and take the leadership role which believe the Trust is there for.
Davo expresses things well in my view. If there is a two pronged approach, dialogue and protest then both approaches will eventually flounder on the same rocks, by that I mean we don't own the club (apart from spiritually). In the deafening silence of pound notes or Euros not being slapped down on the table Roland can do what he likes with his possession. Right now I see little point in dialogue when Katrien has crystal clearly stated that our job is now to raise players to sell, not to succeed in football. If our ambition is to get to mid table each season of course relegation is inevitable and the collapse of attendances. The way to fight relegation is to go for promotion. The dialogue has effectively happened and is over unless some optimistic soul can tell me what it might achieve. We know full well what's occouring, something the G21 group figured out at the start. I can't see what we have left beyond giving up, or a campaign of civil disobedience and action to hurt Roland's plaything in every possible area. Action by large coordinated groups, small bands of brothers and sisters, and determined lone wolfs Lots complain the atmosphere around the club is toxic, but the pollution has come from the regime, not by contamination from the fans. Roland will reap what he sows.
As part of the protest, would it be possible to ask the club to remove all my contact details from their database or unsubscribe (until I am satisfied the club is run properly)? If so, maybe everyone should make the same request which would show KM et al that we mean business.
The point is not whether both are advanced in their effect, but more that they are available to us. We may or may not agree on the opportunity talking offers us, but why abandon it to leave ourselves just one option of something that may or may not be effective? It's only a few weeks ago people are saying the club would never talk to the Supporters' Trust, now they are we're being told to abandon it?
I really don't get the clamour for the Trust to do everything, unless it's simply that others can't be arsed.
Anyway, my main point about the naysayers wasn't a dump of emotions but to point out we've taken a long term view even for those who not only disbelieve but would have us abandon our approach at the beginning of the year. Now those same people are saying we should abandon our approach again because they now see what we were saying and want a fight. I'd ask you all to trust us. If the club abandons its commitments to us all, then they will have closed down one option, but at of today I don't get see how we gain from reducing our options.
Could we put aside our differences with the Trust, whether that be personal past differences with board members or just against the concept of a fans trust, and join the Trust if only for a year, a membership of 3000/5000 would give the Trust more clout if it represented that number of fans, The Trust could donate say 50% of the new membership monies to the Upbeats. The fans need a co-ordinated body to help get us out of this mess and at the moment the Trust is the only body, but KM & RD are dismissive as it only has a membership in the region 1000. It would then be up to the Trust to work to retain your membership and prove that a fans trust can be beneficial to the future of this great club. Join now your club needs you.
Ps I do not know any of the Trust board so this is an independent view.
I get the point about the club and the Trust talking, and after struggling to get to that point, not to abandon it and only have protest and resistance left. I suppose I am saying that the agenda for talks is changing almost daily. There would be for example little to be gained by talking if it basically means Katrien re-sizing and revising her power-point presentation. Don't we now know and realise it all? Is there anything new to hear from this regime? The only agenda I can see being credible is for the Trust, in talks if you like, to articulate what the fans want, and to see if the club is going to deliver that, and crucially on what time scale. I suppose it is for the Trust to spell it out in black and white to the regime now, rather than the other way round. There is no mystery surprise waiting for us from Roland, unless it is the return of a free to act as a proper manager Chris Powell, and Alex Dyer plus Yann Kermogant returning, the retention of Watt and Lookman, and a January save us budget of a few million pounds...yeah that would be a nice surprise package, but nothing like that will happen at all. We get it, we get them, we get the plan, but what they still don't get is us, and I am now doubtful that dialogue will be the way to explain how much of an emergency the fans now feel this situation to be.
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
Just when I thought then Trust had finally got it they come out with this.
There is no similarity with what Spell it out are asking for and the outcome of the Woolwich meeting.
SIO has clear specific, timebound outcomes. The Woolwich meeting had a vague wish for more dialogue.
Now the Trust is trying to say "you lot carry on protesting and we'll pick up the dialogue and have our meeting with KM off the back of it".
Please get off the fence, not as individuals but as a board.
Stop asking for vague outcomes. Demand specific, timed actions from the club.
The few very small wins for the fans have come as a result of the car park protests and the 2%/SIO.
Ask for more and better players, ask KM to explain her remarks on the video, criticise the format and make up of the T20k group, demand a better manager, better comminication, state what action you will take if and when these things don't happen be it marches, protests, media campaigns, boycotts, complaints to governing bodies, etc etc etc etc. You Could even offer your help as a trust giving out sone black and white scarves before Wolves. You have a stall why not use it for something useful?
I'm guessing you are going to say we support the scarves, we need to wait, we need another survey, we need to leave the door open.
The point is not whether both are advanced in their effect, but more that they are available to us. We may or may not agree on the opportunity talking offers us, but why abandon it to leave ourselves just one option of something that may or may not be effective? It's only a few weeks ago people are saying the club would never talk to the Supporters' Trust, now they are we're being told to abandon it?
I really don't get the clamour for the Trust to do everything, unless it's simply that others can't be arsed.
Anyway, my main point about the naysayers wasn't a dump of emotions but to point out we've taken a long term view even for those who not only disbelieve but would have us abandon our approach at the beginning of the year. Now those same people are saying we should abandon our approach again because they now see what we were saying and want a fight. I'd ask you all to trust us. If the club abandons its commitments to us all, then they will have closed down one option, but at of today I don't get see how we gain from reducing our options.
The problem is that the web summit video appears to show they have zero interest in dialogue. Their plans are set in stone and they will not move.
I am just as guilty as others in giving this board the benefit of the doubt in the past. I was wrong and we are all wrong if we wait even longer for dialogue.
They are not interested, we are an irritation. So let's be even more irritating.
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
Just when I thought then Trust had finally got it they come out with this.
There is no similarity with what Spell it out are asking for and the outcome of the Woolwich meeting.
SIO has clear specific, timebound outcomes. The Woolwich meeting had a vague wish for more dialogue.
Now the Trust is trying to say "you lot carry on protesting and we'll pick up the dialogue and have our meeting with KM off the back of it".
Please get off the fence, not as individuals but as a board.
Stop asking for vague outcomes. Demand specific, timed actions from the club.
The few very small wins for the fans have come as a result of the car park protests and the 2%/SIO.
Ask for more and better players, ask KM to explain her remarks on the video, criticise the format and make up of the T20k group, demand a better manager, better comminication, state what action you will take if and when these things don't happen be it marches, protests, media campaigns, boycotts, complaints to governing bodies, etc etc etc etc. You Could even offer your help as a trust giving out sone black and white scarves before Wolves. You have a stall why not use it for something useful?
I'm guessing you are going to say we support the scarves, we need to wait, we need another survey, we need to leave the door open.
No, you need to act.
" Any popcorn left love? Ok. Twiglets will have to do"
I endorse the action to seek meaningful dialogue but let's be honest here, it has hardly been forthcoming from the club with any meaningful action has it?
At what point would the trust board think that the time has come for another course of action?
What more can they do to us that they haven't already started?
It's been too easy for them for the simple reason that most of us are reasonable people.
This situation is no longer, and perhaps never was, reasonable.
We need to make it difficult for them to pursue their current strategy ...they want to change the rest of the league to their point of view which is laughable inasmuch as it is unachievable.
To add to @PragueAddick's comments, it seems to me that right now there are two channels of influence active: the external influence of protests, and the internal one of dialogue. The former have taken good shape thanks to @Airman Brown and @Addickted2TheReds, and the Trust are leading on the latter.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
Just when I thought then Trust had finally got it they come out with this.
There is no similarity with what Spell it out are asking for and the outcome of the Woolwich meeting.
SIO has clear specific, timebound outcomes. The Woolwich meeting had a vague wish for more dialogue.
Now the Trust is trying to say "you lot carry on protesting and we'll pick up the dialogue and have our meeting with KM off the back of it".
Please get off the fence, not as individuals but as a board.
Stop asking for vague outcomes. Demand specific, timed actions from the club.
The few very small wins for the fans have come as a result of the car park protests and the 2%/SIO.
Ask for more and better players, ask KM to explain her remarks on the video, criticise the format and make up of the T20k group, demand a better manager, better comminication, state what action you will take if and when these things don't happen be it marches, protests, media campaigns, boycotts, complaints to governing bodies, etc etc etc etc. You Could even offer your help as a trust giving out sone black and white scarves before Wolves. You have a stall why not use it for something useful?
I'm guessing you are going to say we support the scarves, we need to wait, we need another survey, we need to leave the door open.
No, you need to act.
Wow.
Were hardly on the fence. We've stated very clearly which direction we're going to lead in, long before protests started, and it's that for which you're criticising us. You might find more similarities with B&W were you to read our statements and reports from q1 this year.
There is no good reason why we should throw away one of just two channels open to us when you - well Joe, and Rick - are doing a perfectly fine job in my view of the other.
The thing is Henry you and others want your cake and eat it. Quick to criticise, slow to give credit, you don't want to join the Trust but you're quite happy to believe you should have more influence on our decisions than our members.
Our position is quite clear, as per Steve's statement on Christmas Eve.
when RD said that winning is not important I took little notice, but when you couple that with KM saying that RD is the owner and the club will be run his way plus the Dublin video it is obvious that RD doesn't care about our history, our supporters or our first team's performance. I don't understand his objective except that I find it frightening for the future of OUR club.
As for what we can do the answer is talk to KM and protest but both prongs of action need to be lead by the Trust as there is no other fans organisation to do this.
Comments
I'm disappointed, I'm out......
http://www.castrust.org/2015/12/447270/
BTW some people reported problems with the site, but @rikofold who is at work today has managed to fix it, so please try again if you had problems earlier
It ends with 'we need it now'. However the next statement, which I suggest ought to come out very soon, ought to end with the same words with the addition of 'or else'.
This is also not back to the Valley, its far less black and white - forgive the irony. Its a harder issue because it causes apathy rather than action, altho there are some similarities, those who care (which includes Trust and others) cannot rest and expect forces of old to pick up the pieces afterwards, it may be too late to save the patient by then.
The Trust must make a judgement and soon. It must steer the agenda with the club with a timetable, this cannot be allowed to dally any longer the way it has.
(Edited: because all of us need to step back and enjoy xmas, want to make that clear, am also not criticising intentionally, very hard job, unpaid and people have lives, and theTB do a Sterling job of it)
There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart that you can't take part! You can't even passively take part! And you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus -- and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it -- that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all!!
CAFC is in your DNA mate, keep the faith, .......only a fool does not question there faith at times.
Merry Christmas Ken.
It strikes me that people are asking the Trust to take action not only already being capably addressed by other supporters but which will almost certainly result in us halving those channels available to us. That seems foolish to me.
It would be different perhaps if no protest action was being organised - and the club is well aware we back the b&w campaign (not least because its objectives are very close to those that arose from the Woolwich meeting).
Anyway, our statement yesterday makes clear that far from waiting for January to end we're working throughout to try to get the club to do things in a timely manner. There is some reality about the availability of senior club staff during a transfer window though.
I do observe that some of the criticism is from people who are not only not members of the Trust but who have previously expressed their view we shouldn't even exist. For those then to effectively blame us for supporter inaction is a little hard to swallow, especially when we've been active on this very issue for over a year, whilst the same fans were telling us we were interfering busybodies creating an imaginary threat to bolster our numbers.
Ho hum. Merry Christmas
As a Trust member they are my DrJekyll side as opposed to my own foaming at the mouth Mr Hyde , so the considered responses and views of the TB I'm happy to run with for now ,it's clearly a thankless task
And with all the various campaigns and groups working for supporters in their different ways I salute your undying love and energy for the cause of Charlton Athletic
Thank you
Let's look at the dialogue side of things. Unless the Trust has privately seen a much more positive level of open-ness and engagement from Katrien, which it would be useful to know about if that's the case, what has really happened? 1. A massively stage managed fans meeting where she reneged on commitments in respect of the way the meeting was conducted, stuffed the "audience" full of CAFC employees, and guided the debate well away from the truly important and contentious issues. 2) Set up the Target 20k group (an exercise in futility if ever I saw one) where she has yet again misunderstood (wilfully or stupidly) the potential value, and missed out on the chance to get key players on board through adopting a kind of fans forum approach to group representation. Any thing else I can't recall this early?
And what about the protest side of things? Is this really being "capably addressed by other supporters". I really don't mean any offence to those brave souls who have sought to get these rolling but again, I would say that is a very rose tinted view of it. There is a smattering of fans wearing black and white. The first car park protest had a decent-ish turn out but was hardly the loud, raucous, focused display of fan discontent that would make KM worry overmuch. She even had the bad sense to laugh at it. The second one was pretty much a non-event, and even then people were largely hanging around the edges with many put off by the occasional "unacceptable" chants. To @Addickted2The Reds great credit, the 2% protest got good traction but that feels to me a pretty lone success. What I see and hear on this forum and elsewhere is a bunch of very pissed off people with a mixed range of ideas and views as to what forms of protest are "best" but not a great deal of consensus or momentum.
If the Trust really feels that the dialogue route is still a runner I am surprised. KM had shown through every word and deed her disdain for the Trust and indeed for the wider fan base.
The fans are crying out for someone to step up and take an overall co-ordinating role in the protests. They need leading - in selecting the most effective methods, in planning them, in publicising them widely, in supporting them logistically, in actively managing them "on the ground", in funding them. In my view the Trust Board is currently resembling Neville Chamberlain and his appeasement cabinet of the late 1930s when what we really need is a Churchill. The Trust needs to get on a war footing, sort out some crowd funding, set a strategy, put in place plans and tactics to achieve that strategy - buy a fecking megaphone for christ sake and lead the chanting outside the west stand, that would be better than sitting there like a faithful dog waiting for Katrien to throw you the odd tidbit.
As for the snipe at some fans, I do understand that emotion but you have to ask yourself - does the Trust exist to represent only it's members or the wider fan base. If it's the latter, which I believe it should be, than you have to rise above their level, ignore their earlier sniping and take the leadership role which believe the Trust is there for.
In the deafening silence of pound notes or Euros not being slapped down on the table Roland can do what he likes with his possession.
Right now I see little point in dialogue when Katrien has crystal clearly stated that our job is now to raise players to sell, not to succeed in football. If our ambition is to get to mid table each season of course relegation is inevitable and the collapse of attendances. The way to fight relegation is to go for promotion.
The dialogue has effectively happened and is over unless some optimistic soul can tell me what it might achieve. We know full well what's occouring, something the G21 group figured out at the start.
I can't see what we have left beyond giving up, or a campaign of civil disobedience and action to hurt Roland's plaything in every possible area. Action by large coordinated groups, small bands of brothers and sisters, and determined lone wolfs
Lots complain the atmosphere around the club is toxic, but the pollution has come from the regime, not by contamination from the fans.
Roland will reap what he sows.
I really don't get the clamour for the Trust to do everything, unless it's simply that others can't be arsed.
Anyway, my main point about the naysayers wasn't a dump of emotions but to point out we've taken a long term view even for those who not only disbelieve but would have us abandon our approach at the beginning of the year. Now those same people are saying we should abandon our approach again because they now see what we were saying and want a fight. I'd ask you all to trust us. If the club abandons its commitments to us all, then they will have closed down one option, but at of today I don't get see how we gain from reducing our options.
Ps I do not know any of the Trust board so this is an independent view.
I suppose I am saying that the agenda for talks is changing almost daily. There would be for example little to be gained by talking if it basically means Katrien re-sizing and revising her power-point presentation.
Don't we now know and realise it all? Is there anything new to hear from this regime? The only agenda I can see being credible is for the Trust, in talks if you like, to articulate what the fans want, and to see if the club is going to deliver that, and crucially on what time scale.
I suppose it is for the Trust to spell it out in black and white to the regime now, rather than the other way round.
There is no mystery surprise waiting for us from Roland, unless it is the return of a free to act as a proper manager Chris Powell, and Alex Dyer plus Yann Kermogant returning, the retention of Watt and Lookman, and a January save us budget of a few million pounds...yeah that would be a nice surprise package, but nothing like that will happen at all.
We get it, we get them, we get the plan, but what they still don't get is us, and I am now doubtful that dialogue will be the way to explain how much of an emergency the fans now feel this situation to be.
There is no similarity with what Spell it out are asking for and the outcome of the Woolwich meeting.
SIO has clear specific, timebound outcomes. The Woolwich meeting had a vague wish for more dialogue.
Now the Trust is trying to say "you lot carry on protesting and we'll pick up the dialogue and have our meeting with KM off the back of it".
Please get off the fence, not as individuals but as a board.
Stop asking for vague outcomes. Demand specific, timed actions from the club.
The few very small wins for the fans have come as a result of the car park protests and the 2%/SIO.
Ask for more and better players, ask KM to explain her remarks on the video, criticise the format and make up of the T20k group, demand a better manager, better comminication, state what action you will take if and when these things don't happen be it marches, protests, media campaigns, boycotts, complaints to governing bodies, etc etc etc etc. You Could even offer your help as a trust giving out sone black and white scarves before Wolves. You have a stall why not use it for something useful?
I'm guessing you are going to say we support the scarves, we need to wait, we need another survey, we need to leave the door open.
No, you need to act.
I am just as guilty as others in giving this board the benefit of the doubt in the past. I was wrong and we are all wrong if we wait even longer for dialogue.
They are not interested, we are an irritation. So let's be even more irritating.
:-)
At what point would the trust board think that the time has come for another course of action?
It's been too easy for them for the simple reason that most of us are reasonable people.
This situation is no longer, and perhaps never was, reasonable.
We need to make it difficult for them to pursue their current strategy ...they want to change the rest of the league to their point of view which is laughable inasmuch as it is unachievable.
Were hardly on the fence. We've stated very clearly which direction we're going to lead in, long before protests started, and it's that for which you're criticising us. You might find more similarities with B&W were you to read our statements and reports from q1 this year.
There is no good reason why we should throw away one of just two channels open to us when you - well Joe, and Rick - are doing a perfectly fine job in my view of the other.
The thing is Henry you and others want your cake and eat it. Quick to criticise, slow to give credit, you don't want to join the Trust but you're quite happy to believe you should have more influence on our decisions than our members.
Our position is quite clear, as per Steve's statement on Christmas Eve.
Merry Christmas. X
As for what we can do the answer is talk to KM and protest but both prongs of action need to be lead by the Trust as there is no other fans organisation to do this.