Jimenez/Cash sued over Greenwich Peninsula stadium development
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Devils advocate,... Jimenez backed by a load of cash for a takeover now? Yes or no?0
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No.CAFCsayer said:Devils advocate,... Jimenez backed by a load of cash for a takeover now? Yes or no?
Remember Varney, Kavanagh and Powell were running the club day to day, it wasn't Jimenez.
As it's now been proved that Jimenez is less than honest and might not even pass the fit and proper test, hard as that might be to believe.4 -
RD was indeed received with gratitude and also relief, after the disappointment of the failed Josh Harris negotiations. He was able to step in and buy the club virtually for a song, which gravely distorted his idea of its true worth. Because he had - and still has - no real Addicks understanding, he seriously undervalued the gem he had bought.
Such a fatal misjudgement led to the catastrophic and comprehensive mishandling of CAFC, akin to buying a thoroughbred and setting it to pull a plough. The proper governance of the club and the staunch support of the fans were duly sacrificed on the altar of his bizarre theories and untested preconceptions. Truly weird.
He could so easily have had it all - what a terrible, terrible waste. I said it before and I'll say it again : his triumph was to save the club from its previous owners, and his tragedy was that he then failed to save it from himself.
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We have to assume that all previous interested parties dropped out on the basis of a deal and a price which left TJ/JC in control of relocating the club. As such the question of whether all options had been exhausted is necessarily unproven.seth plum said:It is all a bit out of my comfort zone of understanding, but at first glance it looks as if it is fortunate Duchatelet bought us when he did. Indeed we are only getting the full story now, but when Duchatelet first arrived there was definitely a feeling of gratitude around. Until the early transfer dealings and Powell sacking, Riga release and weird player churn, began to get us worried.
So my thoughts are was Duchatelet the only game in town at that time? It looks like he was the one that Slater and Jimenez grabbed at, but my 'what if' gene wonders if we were of interest to anybody else at that time. And if we were, would that represent some latent interest?2 -
Clearly we fell among thieves here.
It's intriguing that the money was taken from Khakshouri by October 23rd 2013 and the loan arrangement agreed in writing by November 4th 2013. Shortly afterwards it appears "An approach was made to the Defendants in November 2013 by Mr Roland Duchatelet with an expression of interest in purchasing the Club".
My reading of this would be that Jimenez wanted the £1.8m solely to avoid the club going into administration and always intended to sell the club to whoever would buy it, and was clearly prepared to paint a false picture of the likelihood of a move to the Greenwich peninsular in order to facilitate this. Was the approach from Roland a coincidence? Remember, his (then) club Germinal Beerschot FC had been part of a very loose network with Charlton back in 2006-2008. Was a channel of communications opened to him once the decision to clear out of Charlton had been taken? If so, by whom?
To his credit, and whatever his faults (insufficient ambition for the owner of a UK club + preordained ideas about squad size and composition), Roland saw through the bluster about a move to the Greenwich peninsular, and, unlike the sellers isn't dishonest.
But where do we go from here?
Could Jimenez appeal? I wouldn't have thought it likely - he has had 4 years to provide his version of events, backed up by documentation. He could, I guess, appeal any award of costs and damages, but, that doesn't detract from the finding of guilt and fraud here.
Roland is in the market to sell the club now. Not sure anyone will buy "development potential" of the Valley at some unspecified point in the future after the airing of this legal judgement. He could sell, though, and take some money up front and the rest as either overage if/when profits occur from either a re-development of the Valley and a move to the Greenwich peninsular. (Or promotion back to the Premiership).
The problem now with the move to the Greenwich peninsular is that the Morden Road site isn't actually big enough for the size of ground and facilities the club would need. Had we moved back in 2000-2005 when there were much bigger pieces of land available it might have been a runner. Today? Personally, I doubt it.
What a mess we've been in during the last 10-12 years: coasting in the last couple of years in the Premiership when we should have been rebuilding under a new manager + unsuitable replacements for Curbishley + being run by spivs + 2 avoidable relegations to the third tier.
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That's a disgusting slur, to suggest that he might not pass the F&P person test.Henry Irving said:CAFCsayer said:Devils advocate,... Jimenez backed by a load of cash for a takeover now? Yes or no?
As it's now been proved that Jimenez is less than honest and might not even pass the fit and proper test, hard as that might be to believe.
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It's a fair question.Stig said:
After reading that! Are you for real?CAFCsayer said:Devils advocate,... Jimenez backed by a load of cash for a takeover now? Yes or no?
Many have an "anyone but Roland" attitude without pausing to think there are hundreds of Jiminez -types who will happily shaft a football club they have no affection for if it makes them a few quid in the process.10 -
The grabbing hands grab all they can
All for themselves after all
Everything Counts
Depeche Mode
The handshake seals the contract from the contract
There's no turning back
The turning point of a career in Korea, being insincere
The holiday was fun packed
The contract still intact
The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves after all
The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves after all
It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts
The graph on the wall
Tells the story of it all
Picture it now
See just how the lies and deceit
Gained a little more power
Confidence taken in by a sun tan and a grin
The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves after all
The grabbing hands
Grab all they can
All for themselves after all
It's a competitive world
Everything counts in large amounts
Everything count
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stOepiohN50 1 - Sponsored links:
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Brilliant summation of Duchatelet's time at the club, I wish I'd said that.GlassHalfFull said:
He could so easily have had it all - what a terrible, terrible waste. I said it before and I'll say it again : his triumph was to save the club from its previous owners, and his tragedy was that he then failed to save it from himself.
(You will Henry, you will)4 -
On the point that the judge decided TJ didn't own any part of the club...
My recollection is that, at some point in 2012-13, there was a change in ownership, when someone perhaps pulled out and the %ages of shares owned by individuals/entities changed. This was reflected in a change to a relevant page about club ownership on the OS. I definitely looked at that page at the time, if not before, and I think that is when Slater popped up as owning 23%. It is probably down to my dodgy memory that I imagine it actually showed Jimenez by name, rather than CAFC(BVI) Ltd, as owning 47%.
Did anyone copy the page or make a note of the details at the time? I am sure there was a relevant thread on CL, but I don't know how to search for it without getting every single thread that ever mentioned TJ come up in the search; perhaps someone's memory is better. Am I wrong about what was on that page?0 -
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Blimey I didn't even noticeCardinal Sin said:The judge's decision should be interesting and Mike Ashley will probably be downing an extra 20 pints in anticipation of an even larger win against the former Greenwich Council employee. Spanish Tony's reputation is already in tatters and it is going to look deadly worse next year. What price on him going bankrupt?
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Does Mr.tatters know this.Arsenetatters said:
Blimey I didn't even noticeCardinal Sin said:The judge's decision should be interesting and Mike Ashley will probably be downing an extra 20 pints in anticipation of an even larger win against the former Greenwich Council employee. Spanish Tony's reputation is already in tatters and it is going to look deadly worse next year. What price on him going bankrupt?
I am truly shocked0 -
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/49195/jimenezs-share-increase-change-to-cafc-holdings/p6MountsfieldPark said:On the point that the judge decided TJ didn't own any part of the club...
My recollection is that, at some point in 2012-13, there was a change in ownership, when someone perhaps pulled out and the %ages of shares owned by individuals/entities changed. This was reflected in a change to a relevant page about club ownership on the OS. I definitely looked at that page at the time, if not before, and I think that is when Slater popped up as owning 23%. It is probably down to my dodgy memory that I imagine it actually showed Jimenez by name, rather than CAFC(BVI) Ltd, as owning 47%.
Did anyone copy the page or make a note of the details at the time? I am sure there was a relevant thread on CL, but I don't know how to search for it without getting every single thread that ever mentioned TJ come up in the search; perhaps someone's memory is better. Am I wrong about what was on that page?2 -
Great, thanks. It did explicitly say TJ.paulbaconsarnie said:
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/49195/jimenezs-share-increase-change-to-cafc-holdings/p6MountsfieldPark said:On the point that the judge decided TJ didn't own any part of the club...
My recollection is that, at some point in 2012-13, there was a change in ownership, when someone perhaps pulled out and the %ages of shares owned by individuals/entities changed. This was reflected in a change to a relevant page about club ownership on the OS. I definitely looked at that page at the time, if not before, and I think that is when Slater popped up as owning 23%. It is probably down to my dodgy memory that I imagine it actually showed Jimenez by name, rather than CAFC(BVI) Ltd, as owning 47%.
Did anyone copy the page or make a note of the details at the time? I am sure there was a relevant thread on CL, but I don't know how to search for it without getting every single thread that ever mentioned TJ come up in the search; perhaps someone's memory is better. Am I wrong about what was on that page?0 -
Didn't Peter Varney introduce these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.0 -
I don't think it's likely or reasonable to assume that either could have been fully aware of how they would operate in practice and to my knowledge Varney didn't introduce Cash, who was not a director or, as the court has told us, a shareholder. His involvement emerged later.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
I'm not defending either PV or RM as they can answer for themselves, but it's easy to be wise with hindsight and after the disclosure of the Wise, Khakshouri judgements and pending case involving Mike Ashley. You also have to come up with an alternative way forward for the club in late 2010, when Murray had run out of money and everyone else had left the table. Nobody was complaining when the team was promoted the following season, supporters or staff.
I do know - and it is a matter of record - that once issues became apparent at board level in late spring/early summer 2012, two executive directors - Varney and Steve Kavanagh - resigned from the board.4 -
OK then. Apologies to Sayer if I came across as a little harsh there but there really does seem to be a huge difference between being so desperate to get rid of Duchatelet that you'd take a random stranger off the street and choosing that we are taken over by someone who's so unscrupulous that they lie to their own friends and who wants to sell our home to make a fast buck.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
It's a fair question.Stig said:
After reading that! Are you for real?CAFCsayer said:Devils advocate,... Jimenez backed by a load of cash for a takeover now? Yes or no?
Many have an "anyone but Roland" attitude without pausing to think there are hundreds of Jiminez -types who will happily shaft a football club they have no affection for if it makes them a few quid in the process.
For me, yes I'd take some random buyer any day, but Jiminez, never.0 - Sponsored links:
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You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
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But think of all those nectar points !PragueAddick said:
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.12 -
FFS. If you've got something to say, then say it. What was the plan, and whose was it?nth london addick said:Investigate away chaps but it was a plan
Come on snowflake, out with it :-)
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Would be more than interesting to hear what Murray has to say about all this.1
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That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choicePragueAddick said:
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo0 -
I think I agree, it just makes sense to anyone who would buy the club worth their salt. I do wonder whether that’s a point Roland is haggling for in the sale, ‘selling’ the valley but keeping some interest on any development on the site. I’m speculating and have nothing to back it up of course, but Roland and possible league 2 and beyond plus an ever emptying valley and probable sell offs/commercial development of the ground anyway or new owners, a shiny new stadium and potential to get back up to the Prem. It’s a much harder choice than it looks on paper but I have to go for the latter.nth london addick said:
That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choicePragueAddick said:
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo0 -
A main reason Varney got involved in 2010 was because of his concern that Murray was willing to sell to Sainsbury, who he thought would try to develop The Valley for housing. Otherwise Varney had quit the club in Jan 2008. He returned briefly in 2009 to help organise the £7m directors’ loans.nth london addick said:
That Richard Murray wanted to sell to as his preferred choicePragueAddick said:
You have forgotten that the alternative was Sebastian Sainsbury.Covered End said:Didn't Peter Varney introduced these con men to Richard Murray ?
Are we to believe that both Varney and Murray were unaware of their disgusting business practices ?
If we are, then it doesn't say a lot about their business judgement.
So it would appear that without Jimenez and Cash's deception. Charlton would have gone into administration, had points deducted and been relegated to League 1. Plus it doesn't look like Kevin Cash turned off the money tap, but more likely he literally had run out of cash. They wouldn't have nearly lost everything if they had the money to keep the club going for a few year's longer.
It was Murray and Varney more than anyone that wanted us to move to the peninsula it was close as anything before TJ and slater
I would’ve hated it but it was going to happen and it still will imo
I agree the club was sold to the spivs on the premise that there was potential in the peninsula scheme, which was a project that had surfaced in various forms. It was the hook that caught them and as such it was Varney’s “plan” if you like. He certainly did the groundwork. However, It’s too simplistic to say that “it was close as anything” because the club never owned or held a lease on the land, never had planning consent and was nowhere near either.
There’s a reason it keeps coming back, which is money rather than individual motivation.0 -
Murray def wanted to sell it to Sainsbury and I am glad Peter came back and was part of that process never happening if you think who Murray has done business to move the club off too and who he has aligned himself with it’s reason alone for him to move away the mans was pivotal in our successes and complicit we n our demise
I don’t agree that it was just a ploy to hook fish I believe and will always believe that there is business reasons to move there and those reasons no matter how compelling or justified can never be more important than us staying at the valley but that’s my own personal view based on the lengths you and others went to return us home , The Valley is charlton imo2 -
Murray as well as Varney became and still are middle men. They can say 'I would have done this'or 'I wouldn't let that happen'. But if big money comes in they would have F**k all say in which direction the club takes.
Saying they will is just lip service.1 -
If I had big money no one would be telling me including the fans what to do.
There would be free travel on coach and train for away games.0
