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Fans / Club meeting tonight

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  • Hex said:

    Hex said:

    razil said:

    In my view the reason the questioning wasnt as strong as it could have been was due the deliberate divide and rule strategy of structuring the meeting the way it was, watering down with randoms, adding the fans forum which is 99% concerned with operational issues like VE, potholes, tickets etc to divert from the bigger strategic questions. Altho i think they still did a reasonable job despite that.

    That's about the first reasonable statement I've read. Most people seem to want blood on the floor. That was never going to happen. The end result is that there is now a structure for future meetings. The original gripe was no communication between the club and fans and I see this as a step forward. Not going to please everyone or even a majority but its a start

    What structure is that ?
    KM agreed to meetings with fans regarding particular matters as they come up and future Q & A's
    She put those forward as an idea. I wouldn't regard that as a structure.
    We have different opinions on how it was presented. I believe it was a start to a continuing dialogue. To me that is a structure.
  • Hex said:

    With all the threads of the last couple of days I haven't noticed any comment on the "£4.5M" that RD has invested in The Valley. We know about the pitch, the seats, Vista lounge and the big screen but does that really add up to that much ?

    I did comment on this earlier - the consensus seemed to be a blooming expensive sofa.

    KM also then went on to say £2.5M later...

    Yes, I heard the £2.5M but thought it was a slip of the tongue. Perhaps the £4.5M is a deliberately inflated figure and the £2.5M the more accurate amount ?
  • Addickted said:

    So East Kent Addicks have pulled out of the Fans Forum because of poor communication.

    John C gets his opportunity to really raise the issues about what tactics the Board are putting into action to achieve the strategic plan and then spent 10 minutes querying CADSA, disabled access in the West Stand and Valley Express. Exactly the issues raised at the last FF.

    Craig's stance impressed me - he hit the nail on the head and the top table looked uncomfortable. He looked more a CEO than the present incumbent.

    I think KM got off lightly last night - and I think her welling up after about an hour, had the desired effect on the (mostly) male, articulate, white middle aged and middle class representatives, who probably - without realising - felt slightly sorry for her. I know I would have it I'd been there.

    Syd was Syd. Bless him. He really does need another hobby.

    Goes without saying ...
  • I do think some people get too worked up about polls and surveys about the overall consensus about fans feelings about the board.

    A significant portion of our fanbase are very disillusioned with our owners, it doesn't take stats and pie charts to 'prove' it. Things like that are holding us back from just getting on and tackling the issues at hand, let's use some common sense with this stuff.
  • Addickted said:

    So East Kent Addicks have pulled out of the Fans Forum because of poor communication.

    John C gets his opportunity to really raise the issues about what tactics the Board are putting into action to achieve the strategic plan and then spent 10 minutes querying CADSA, disabled access in the West Stand and Valley Express. Exactly the issues raised at the last FF.

    Craig's stance impressed me - he hit the nail on the head and the top table looked uncomfortable. He looked more a CEO than the present incumbent.

    I think KM got off lightly last night - and I think her welling up after about an hour, had the desired effect on the (mostly) male, articulate, white middle aged and middle class representatives, who probably - without realising - felt slightly sorry for her. I know I would have it I'd been there.

    Syd was Syd. Bless him. He really does need another hobby.

    Goes without saying ...
    I would rather have Waggott back than her. That's how bad she is imo.
  • cafctom said:

    I do think some people get too worked up about polls and surveys about the overall consensus about fans feelings about the board.

    A significant portion of our fanbase are very disillusioned with our owners, it doesn't take stats and pie charts to 'prove' it. Things like that are holding us back from just getting on and tackling the issues at hand, let's use some common sense with this stuff.

    But the Club think only 2% are negative / protesting...

    The Trust has strong figures to the contrary from its last survey which will be published later this morning.

    There is still work to do to ensure the Club appreciates the scale of the discontent.

  • cafctom said:

    I do think some people get too worked up about polls and surveys about the overall consensus about fans feelings about the board.

    A significant portion of our fanbase are very disillusioned with our owners, it doesn't take stats and pie charts to 'prove' it. Things like that are holding us back from just getting on and tackling the issues at hand, let's use some common sense with this stuff.

    I'm pretty sure you're right Tom when you say a significant number of our fans are disillusioned with what is going on right now and we have IMO seen a decent start in terms of action with the protests, the black and white campaign etc. however I would love to see a poll on here that qualifies the following in numbers/percentage terms

    Who is still happy with RD's reign?

    Who is concerned but still thinks they should be given time to turn it round?

    Who is unhappy and wants them out?

    I appreciate there is a whole science to opinion polls and the type of questions you ask, language used, if those are a little basic then I would welcome any tweaks. Is it possible for CL to run a poll? Apologies if this has been suggested or done before, or it can't be done. I'm just genuinely interested to see what the actual figures might be.

    I'm interested because I think I've seen some interesting counter statements on here over the last few days from some of the people who don't post that regularly and aren't as say so anti RD as some of us.

    And yes I appreciate we are only 500 members (or something like that) and there are other Charlton fans outside of this forum, I'm just curious
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  • rikofold said:

    rikofold said:

    Well that was a jolly "talking shop" with lots of first-name use, bonhomie ("tell us about the goal Jacko") and not a lot of substance. The presentation was there to be picked at, for instance "please outline the key objectives over the next five years that will help us meet the strategic targets you have outlined", but all we seemed to get was a glut of questions focusing on operational stuff and things that had obviously been done to death on previous fans' forums. Later there were opportunities to ask about whether £9m on transfers, compared to £1.1m, was reflected on the team's performance and also getting Murray's view on Duchalet's judge of character bearing in mind that his comment about the key relationship in a football club being between the owner and the manager, the former needing to have implicit trust in the latter. Duchalet has sacked three guys he has picked in the last 18 months. Also, If you are going to a meeting with prepared questions, always have a follow-up. The panel was let off the hook on a number of occasions, for instance the initial question about access to the QPR game was allowed to die a death.

    In my view the guy that opened from the fans' side of the table set the wrong tone by outlining how the meeting would be run and then asking Katrien what she felt were the fans' main issues. Just tell her. Finally, there were clearly people there with individual agendas, namely; " the Crossbars fiasco has turned my footballing life upside down". Ok, but not for this forum. And then we had "VIPs feel disenfranchised and the club should do something for them". Bollocks, I was a VIP once, felt it was a good deal, was happy to sign-up to it and didn't expect anything once it had concluded.

    The upshot was that the panel was never ruffled, one guy said absolutely nothing, Katrien had an easy ride and kept a smile on her face and Murray just sat there playing with his phone. I wasn't there on the night or involved in the process so can't comment on how the fans' side of things was organised and prepared but feel that this was a massive opportunity that was wasted.

    The opening question was specifically designed to tell us if the club was able to articulate what the problem was. KM repeated her opening thought that it was all about not knowing the strategy, and RM twice avoided the question entirely.

    You may disagree, but I think that's hugely significant. If you cannot define a problem, it makes it pretty tricky to solve it and pretty tricky to be sure it's still solved later on. To me what it betrayed is that they genuinely didn't know the answer, and that speaks of a team trying desperately to be understood but giving nowhere near enough energy to seeking to understand. No wonder supporters feel disenfranchised.

    Leaving the soft stuff to one side, if you're running a business and don't know your market you are likely to fail.
    We'll have to agree to disagree here. It's a weak question to ask because a smart person wouldn't have answered it. Why risk bringing issues to the table that others may not of thought of? We should have had a focused meeting targeting the key issues and demanding answers but it never happened.
    Even better to have your own answer, which is what Murray did - he tried the smart 'different people think different things' and referring to other clubs. KM had already kicked off the meeting by telling us what our problem was, and wasn't comfortable with being pressed.

    The smartest answer was to pick up the theme of dialogue, which has been running since the public meeting at the start of the year and was picked up by a Trust survey and the B&W campaign more recently. That was the safe one. If I'd got an answer other than 'I just said something' or 'Keith Downing' I wouldn't have pressed it.

    Do you not think that it spoke volumes that they tripped over that question?
    Sorry, but no I don't. If I'd had been in her shoes I wouldn't have answered it either as there is no benefit in doing so. In my view it would have been far better to ask direct questions about some of the under-pins to the presentation and then move onto other key issues such as managerial selection and turnover, transfer process and squad size, treatment of and communication with fans, etc. Ask an initial question and then keep going until an answer is obtained. This never really happened, the issue about getting into the QPR game was a key example of this.

    I know it's not easy in these type of forums but lessons must be learned so that any run in the future have a chance to be more productive from the fans' perspective.
  • Watched the steam late last night ,first time back on this site tonight.
    The meeting was for me disappointing,having arranged questions for the board we were given very little answers.
    Indeed the CEO stated more than once that we have been over this point time and time again.She still was not giving answers.
    She must get the fans on board some of whom have a great depth of knowledge of this club and have held positions
    within the old supporters club.
    Ifeel she has just dug a deeper hole for herself and can not seewhat is facing her just afew weeks away.
    2% of fans is nothing to what she will be coming up against next time.

    Exactly. She wasn't giving answers because she was not pressed to do so. Nice and easy.
  • On the £4.5m stadium funding, wasn't there something at the last VIP about £1m being spent on the West seats and new Air Conditioning?
  • meldrew66 said:

    Glad I asked about my burning question about Roland's motives for buying the club but furious with myself and others for not challenging KM on the her response that selling players to break even cannot possibly go hand-in-hand with havIng a Premiership ambition. The reality, with this financial policy, has to be that the REALISTIC best expectations that we can have under the present owner is to remain 'competitive' in the Championship.

    Perhaps this is the most informative thing we learned on Tuesday. I would have had more respect for KM if she had come out and said exactly that.

    Of course, there is always the hope that we have a team that 'over-performs' and that, come January time, we are somewhere near the top 6. We will then see if RM's assertion is real that the owner reassesses things every January and (it was strongly suggested) could invest to strengthen the squad if promotion looked possible.

    I just wish KM had been honest and said that Championship survival on a more sound footing was the realistic ambition and that reaching the Premier League is no more than a hope than an 'ambition'.

    Do others see it my way?

    I noticed a few times that as soon as the floor had asked their question, ME would be on hand to take the mic back. Was this a reliberate ploy to prevent fans for asking follow up questions when it became clear that the panel had avoided the question?
  • Didnt the 4.5 include work on the training ground as well?
  • Seems a reasonable assumption from words uttered that the strategy is to keep within a budget that ensures Championship survival, not a budget needed to make a dash for promotion.

    If we get lucky and are in the frame in January the budget might be increased.

    Would not be unreasonable to just say so in black and white.
  • Please see the Trust's comments following the meeting on our website here.
  • Hex said:

    With all the threads of the last couple of days I haven't noticed any comment on the "£4.5M" that RD has invested in The Valley. We know about the pitch, the seats, Vista lounge and the big screen but does that really add up to that much ?

    I did comment on this earlier - the consensus seemed to be a blooming expensive sofa.

    KM also then went on to say £2.5M later...

    I assumed the 4.5 includes Sparrows Lane and 2.5 of that relates to The Valley.
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  • jamescafc said:

    meldrew66 said:

    Glad I asked about my burning question about Roland's motives for buying the club but furious with myself and others for not challenging KM on the her response that selling players to break even cannot possibly go hand-in-hand with havIng a Premiership ambition. The reality, with this financial policy, has to be that the REALISTIC best expectations that we can have under the present owner is to remain 'competitive' in the Championship.

    Perhaps this is the most informative thing we learned on Tuesday. I would have had more respect for KM if she had come out and said exactly that.

    Of course, there is always the hope that we have a team that 'over-performs' and that, come January time, we are somewhere near the top 6. We will then see if RM's assertion is real that the owner reassesses things every January and (it was strongly suggested) could invest to strengthen the squad if promotion looked possible.

    I just wish KM had been honest and said that Championship survival on a more sound footing was the realistic ambition and that reaching the Premier League is no more than a hope than an 'ambition'.

    Do others see it my way?

    I noticed a few times that as soon as the floor had asked their question, ME would be on hand to take the mic back. Was this a reliberate ploy to prevent fans for asking follow up questions when it became clear that the panel had avoided the question?
    Deliberate or not, he always does. So if you want to follow up you have to shout & then you can appear to be "aggressive". Plus they say you've had your turn, we're moving on.

    This is why you need a small meeting of competent and strong individuals and that is why the club have resisted this.
    The ability to ask follow-up questions is crucial. That's your "punch in the gut" opportunity
  • how many have changed their view since that survey tho? In other words what impact has the meeting had
  • edited November 2015
    Blucher said:

    Although what KM had to say about the Club's strategy was couched in generalities and was very short on the practical steps needed to achieve the objectives (i.e. it was more akin to a 'wish list'), I don't think there is much doubt that RD's overarching aim is to somehow survive in the Championship whilst breaking even or get as close to that position as possible.

    (snipped for length)

    The million dollar question is where we go from here. I think an 'RD out' objective is unachievable at present and probably too simplistic, although I think the pressure must be maintained on him and KM in order to create the right sort of backcloth and context for discussions about a change of approach. If RD remains completely intransigent, then we all have a decision to make about whether we are prepared to be part of his interesting 'football experiment'. In terms of the next step, I am certainly not in favour of disrupting the Ipswich game itself but would like to see a large protest from our supporters to demonstrate to RD and KM that we are not prepared to passively accept the inept way in which they are running our club. I am sure some good ideas will be formulated over the next week. Personally, I like the idea of taking our seats 10 minutes into the game - an much emptier than usual stadium and chanting behind the West Stand would be impossible to ignore - although I fear we may lack the necessary Germanic discipline.

    I agree with much of that, although I think it's much more difficult to get the home support to behave in a unified way (as opposed to away fans), because it will always involve a very wide range of people, including casual fans. It's already been suggested the club will try to stuff parts of the stadium with comps, although this won't be entirely successful, because once you issue a certain number the actual usage falls significantly. In addition to that the range of attitudes and approaches to the game mean that even if 93 per cent support protest, as per the trust's survey (and there are good arguments why that will be an overstatement) I doubt if you'd get 30 per cent to remain on the concourse, which visually may be ineffective and will be spun again as "a small minority".
  • Blucher said:

    Although what KM had to say about the Club's strategy was couched in generalities and was very short on the practical steps needed to achieve the objectives (i.e. it was more akin to a 'wish list'), I don't think there is much doubt that RD's overarching aim is to somehow survive in the Championship whilst breaking even or get as close to that position as possible.

    In view of the relative demise of Financial Fair Play and the Network (two main planks of his original plan), the only way he is going to get anywhere close to that is through the the constant development, acquisition and sale of players at a profit. KM had quite a bit to say about that and, interestingly, observed that the average player sales achieved by Championship clubs was £1.7 million. I'm not sure how she knows that figure given the prevalence of undisclosed fees (unless it's based on the previous year's accounts), but I have little doubt that the level of player sales is one of RD's key performance indicators and targets for KM. This explains RD's investment in the Academy and the recruitment of young players from Europe on long contracts in the hope that some of them will 'come good' in the shop window of the Championship and attract large fees.

    In short, there doesn't appear to be any real ambition in football terms to build a side which might have a chance of promotion - as soon as offers are made, players will be sold and talk of "Premiership aspirations" is pure window dressing. This is not a proposition which will build the supporter base; quite the contrary, it will lead to a haemorrhage in the existing support and the indications are that it is already doing so.

    Two other sources of increased income were mentioned by KM, the first of which was the receipt of more money from the Premier League. I don't know if those figures have been finalised, although I doubt that they will make a material difference and, as KM herself acknowledged during a Radio 4 programme with Evan Davis, it is not something that we can rely upon. In any event, it ignores the 'prune juice economics' of football - history tells us that a significant amount of the additional funds will find their way into players' and agents' pockets.

    The other means of cutting losses discussed by KM is a significant increase in gates. The reality, of course, is that however the offering is dressed up, the only way of achieving this is through better results on the field. Unfortunately, we are heading pretty swiftly in the opposite direction.

    As to the meeting itself, one positive was the Club's commitment to ongoing dialogue, albeit that KM has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table as a result of sustained supporter pressure (despite her protestations to the contrary). The change in content and the filming of the Fans' Forum is to be welcomed, as are the proposed strategy meetings, although I expect they will be tightly 'managed' and I have real doubts as to whether RD will really be listening. Still, some progress has been made and we can only hope that the regime will enter into discussions in the right spirit. Richard Murray's point about 'the vacuum' post-RD was well made, although quite how that could be addressed is unclear.

    The big negatives for me were the ridiculous attempt by KM to try and defend the indefensible in terms of the hiring and firing of coaches and the denigration en masse of the supporters who protested last Saturday behind the West Stand, despite the fact that the vast majority were not personally abusing her. I found that disingenuous and deeply distasteful. As one supporter at the meeting remarked, we have a perfectly legitimate right to protest and make our feelings known and her attempts at 'divide and rule' and silencing future protest will, in my view, prove counter-productive. Here was an opportunity at the to show some humility and recognise that mistakes had been made but that was cast to the wind.

    All that said, I don't believe that KM, as a subordinate, is the real problem and I doubt that fixating on her is going to achieve anything. She has managed to piss off a large proportion of supporters (you can smell the burnt bridges) but would any replacement really do anything other than espouse Roland's philosophy and tow the party line ?

    I think our biggest problems are:

    - RD's lack of ambition for CAFC. Charlton supporters are not unrealistic and recognise that, as a mid-ranking Championship club, the odds of us getting promoted are slim in the current climate. There must, however, be an element of hope. If, for example, RD was in charge in the 1990s, I very much doubt that we'd ever have reached the Premier League, as players like Rufus and Kinsella would have been sold off before there was ever a chance to build a successful team around them.

    - the complete lack of stability and continuity at the club - ironically, the very antithesis of Richard Murray's approach in the 1990s and first half of the next decade. The most important person at any club is the manager/chief coach but RD clearly doesn't see it that way. He sees them as expendable and he knows best. This is also mirrored in relation to other support staff at the club.

    - generally poor player recruitment. There have been some notable exceptions, notably JBG, but the overall hit rate has been poor. To make matters worse, this has been compounded by giving most of these players long contracts, which represent an ongoing drain on the club's finances.

    - RD's stubbornness, inflexibility and apparent unwillingness to amend his approach in the light of experience since the January 2014 takeover. I found the comparison he made between himself and Alan Turing in the article published by the Trust embarrassing and disturbing in equal measure. I don't think he is going to be too interested in what supporters think - he certainly wasn't at Standard Liege, where he sold the best generation of young players they had produced for many years.

    Overall, then, the prognosis is not good, although I don't think any of us really expected too much positive to come out from Tuesday's meeting, notwithstanding all the hard work put in by attendees and others by way of preparation. At least the door is open for further dialogue.

    The million dollar question is where we go from here. I think an 'RD out' objective is unachievable at present and probably too simplistic, although I think the pressure must be maintained on him and KM in order to create the right sort of backcloth and context for discussions about a change of approach. If RD remains completely intransigent, then we all have a decision to make about whether we are prepared to be part of his interesting 'football experiment'. In terms of the next step, I am certainly not in favour of disrupting the Ipswich game itself but would like to see a large protest from our supporters to demonstrate to RD and KM that we are not prepared to passively accept the inept way in which they are running our club. I am sure some good ideas will be formulated over the next week. Personally, I like the idea of taking our seats 10 minutes into the game - an much emptier than usual stadium and chanting behind the West Stand would be impossible to ignore - although I fear we may lack the necessary Germanic discipline.

    Great post Blucher
  • jamescafc said:

    meldrew66 said:

    Glad I asked about my burning question about Roland's motives for buying the club but furious with myself and others for not challenging KM on the her response that selling players to break even cannot possibly go hand-in-hand with havIng a Premiership ambition. The reality, with this financial policy, has to be that the REALISTIC best expectations that we can have under the present owner is to remain 'competitive' in the Championship.

    Perhaps this is the most informative thing we learned on Tuesday. I would have had more respect for KM if she had come out and said exactly that.

    Of course, there is always the hope that we have a team that 'over-performs' and that, come January time, we are somewhere near the top 6. We will then see if RM's assertion is real that the owner reassesses things every January and (it was strongly suggested) could invest to strengthen the squad if promotion looked possible.

    I just wish KM had been honest and said that Championship survival on a more sound footing was the realistic ambition and that reaching the Premier League is no more than a hope than an 'ambition'.

    Do others see it my way?

    I noticed a few times that as soon as the floor had asked their question, ME would be on hand to take the mic back. Was this a reliberate ploy to prevent fans for asking follow up questions when it became clear that the panel had avoided the question?
    Deliberate or not, he always does. So if you want to follow up you have to shout & then you can appear to be "aggressive". Plus they say you've had your turn, we're moving on.

    This is why you need a small meeting of competent and strong individuals and that is why the club have resisted this.
    I wouldn't blame Mick per se - the club were determined to make it a q&a, which is why they insisted on chairing it themselves. I had agreed with KM in advance of the meeting that we would be allowed to work the fans side of the meeting in the way the various fans' reps and supporters had all agreed on, but it was ignored and to their detriment I feel. It was a factor in the way the evening turned out though.
  • edited November 2015
    @Grapevine49, it will long be a regret of mine that we didn't wrest the control of the meeting away from the club. It meant although we based many of our questions on the things you kindly put together, we never gained the momentum on the night to really press home some of those points.

    There are lots of other factors involved too: such as the club running it as a panel q&a, which meant pressure was created for anyone who wanted to control the mic for any period of time to pass it on, and in turn made it impossible to focus on our four themes of strategy, execution, playing side, supporter disenfranchisement. Most questions got asked but without the incision that would have been afforded by the flow and ability to drill down.

    On reflection, we missed the opportunity to respond to the slideshow in expectation we would be able to do what we had agreed with the club beforehand. I think for various reasons it was hard to ask people to be more agile around our 'script' on that particular event.

    Importantly though I think we learned/confirmed a lot, and I'm particularly grateful for your analysis because it draws attention to some of the value of the evening, even if we didn't attain the objectives we ventured out with.
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