Just done the maths - Vettel was not to blame for today - but had he not made the previous errors above, the team would have been happy with second and not taken the risk that lost them a place and the gap would have been 53 points in his favour tonight! If Vettel doesn't make the error in Germany, he doesn't take the stupid risk in Italy.
Based on Vettel's errors:
Azerbaijan
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
France
Actual result: Fifth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Third, Hamilton winner
Germany
Actual result: DNF, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
Italy
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton third
Just done the maths - Vettel was not to blame for today - but had he not made the previous errors above, the team would have been happy with second and not taken the risk that lost them a place and the gap would have been 53 points in his favour tonight! If Vettel doesn't make the error in Germany, he doesn't take the stupid risk in Italy.
Based on Vettel's errors:
Azerbaijan
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
France
Actual result: Fifth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Third, Hamilton winner
Germany
Actual result: DNF, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
Italy
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner Result without error: Winner, Hamilton third
You’ve described what is essentially Vettel’s best case scenario, but what’s Hamilton’s? I can’t recall exact races or whatever, but I’m sure I can remember some massive tactical fuck ups by Mercedes this season, whether down to him or his team, a couple of iffy racing incidents that cost him position plus some dreadful luck with timings of safety cars that hugely benefited Ferrari, so I’m sure in a best case scenario, he would have further benefited by more than 13 points than he actually has - so he also could have led by more than the 53 points you claim. As a result, with all being equal, I’d say he’d have the lead based on pure driving and car reliability, even if you take out all of the bad luck/decisions/driving.
Apart from anything else, if you’re saying that Vettel’s mistakes are anomalies and we should ignore them, well 4 big errors in 15 races - more than one every 4 races - that’s not anomalous data. That just suggests he’s not good enough. (And I know that’s silly as he’s a repeated world champion, but you see my point.)
Anyway, as my old mate used to love saying: “If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans, there’d be no need for tinkers.”
Would have been interesting to see how Vettel would have reacted if he’d been in Hamilton’s position with Verstappen right behind him as he arrived at the Grosjean Sirotkin kerfuffle. Would he have lifted like Hamilton did and risked Verstappen sneaking past or would he have tried to bulldoze through and risked getting tangled up with one of the distracted back markers? We’ll never know but the fact Hamilton took the former option shows a) the advantage of being in the clear lead of the championship and the luxury it affords him of being able to drive a little conservatively, and b) the way he is thinking clearly under pressure.
We know Vettel is a very good racing driver, but when he won his Championships he was in clearly the fastest car and was a clear step the better driver vs Mark Webber. There was friction in the team but Vettel always had the edge and subsequently never came under that much pressure. Once Danny Ric showed up the shine came off Vettel and ever since then he’s been shown to be a bit of hot head under pressure, especially by German standards! His reaction to qualifying and especially the way he just backed right off Verstappen and looked so down beat after the race, I think he’s coming to the conclusion he can’t match Hamilton and he, understandably, doesn’t like it.
I will never understand why the best British sports stars are often so hated. Hamilton, Rooney, Murray come to mind.
Hamilton for example should be a national treasure - but not many people like him!
I have nothing against Hamilton and do actually admire him for his success.
However, I do feel that a sport where there is such a heavy weighting on the equipment utilised does undermine the achievements of the individual.
The evidence of all of this is there for all to see. In fact, I wouldn't mind betting that the final drivers championship will actually look like this:
1. Mercedes 2. Mercedes 3. Ferrari 4. Ferrari 5. Williams 6. Williams 7. Red Bull 8. Red Bull
So, we have four teams who are each better than each other with the rest nowhere. But only one out of two drivers can actually win the Championship and that has, in previous years, actually been determined by the team through what is euphemistically known as "team orders".
As I say I admire Hamilton for what he has achieved. But I will always struggle to be convinced that his achievements match that of tennis players such as Federer, Djokovic or dare I even mention that of Andy Murray. Because none of those players have ever started their matches with equipment that is twice as good as that of their opponents.
Except that, in their positions at the top of their sport, the tennis players can afford to buy in the very best coaches, fitness trainers, etc to keep them at their peak. They also don't travel around the world economy class like those struggling with the lower world rankings or have to buy their own clothes and equipment. In any event, these days tennis players only win because they are tall - it makes serving so much easier. Being over 6' 4" in tennis is like having a F1 Ferrari engine; being 6' 8" like having a Mercedes engine. They should be handicapped and made to stand further back behind the baseline for serves.
Anyway, well done Lewis, doing over the Germans.
You are unlikely to get a drive if you are 6' 4" and definitely won't if you weigh 12 stone these days. But you can win at the highest level at tennis and other sports being the same height as the likes of Hamilton. As Michael Chang, Lleyton Hewitt and Kei Nishikori have proven.
And Alan Ball, Kevin Keegan, Francis Lee, Sammy Lee, Dennis Wise, Lee Hendrie, Craig Bellamy, Napoleon and @Leroy Ambrose .
Vettels mistakes are not anomalities and some of them are not major mistakes - buy I think they are probably pressure induced, Vettel's bad luck is Hamilton is so good.
Vettels mistakes are not anomalities and some of them are not major mistakes - buy I think they are probably pressure induced, Vettel's bad luck is Hamilton is so good.
I think that’s fair enough. To be honest, I think I agree with much of what you were saying, I was just pointing out that saying ‘If this or that had happened, things might be different’ cuts both ways.
Also lets not forget Vettel lucked into a win in Australia via the safety car - which Hamilton would have easily won.
And Mercedes screwed up their strategy and then retired both cars in Austria. The mistakes and bad luck have not been totally one way, but more of it has been heading towards Ferrari.
I thought that team orders were informally, if not formally, banned and the expectation now is that the best driver/car on the day should win the race. If that is the case, why was Bottas told to let Hamilton by?
I thought that team orders were informally, if not formally, banned and the expectation now is that the best driver/car on the day should win the race. If that is the case, why was Bottas told to let Hamilton by?
I think they changed it back again, Force India (I think it was) also had their drivers swap positions to catch the car in front (rather than protect a driver)*
*not that the reason for doing it makes any difference
Yeah they swapped it back as basically all the teams do it at some point or another.
When it goes too far is like Ferrari in Austria in 2002 I think. 6 races in to the season and telling your number 2 driver he can’t win - not quite the same as 5 races to go and the number 2 driver is out of the championship cos he hasn’t been quick enough up to that point.
Whilst I agree with you regarding betting on F1, I would imagine that more people won money with LH winning than lost because VB didn’t
I am sure thats a lot of comfort to the people who lost on VB because of team orders, yeah we may have lost but alot of people will have won.
How is what VB done any worse than Stephen Lee throwing a frame in snooker or a football team throwing a match.
It's different because the rules state that swapping positions is not against the rules. Throwing a frame in snooker is.
Anyone betting on Formula One should know the rules before they make a bet as there is a chance that drivers will swap positions, meaning their bet could always be compromised.
It seems that F1 uses, when it suits, wants to use both definitions of the word "sport":
Hamilton, for example, partakes in an activity involving physical exertion and skill competing against others. Bottas, on the other hand, is a person who behaves in a good or specified way in response to a situation.
When I raised the issue a couple of years ago regarding the lack of competitiveness in motor racing I was told by F1 fans that this isn't the case. But when only two teams can win F1 and just one person from each team is allowed to do too that simply isn't competitive sport.
I was going to say it's a bit like the Scottish Premiership. But even that now is more competitive than F1.
Comments
Based on Vettel's errors:
Azerbaijan
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner
Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
France
Actual result: Fifth, Hamilton winner
Result without error: Third, Hamilton winner
Germany
Actual result: DNF, Hamilton winner
Result without error: Winner, Hamilton second
Italy
Actual result: Fourth, Hamilton winner
Result without error: Winner, Hamilton third
As a result, with all being equal, I’d say he’d have the lead based on pure driving and car reliability, even if you take out all of the bad luck/decisions/driving.
Apart from anything else, if you’re saying that Vettel’s mistakes are anomalies and we should ignore them, well 4 big errors in 15 races - more than one every 4 races - that’s not anomalous data. That just suggests he’s not good enough. (And I know that’s silly as he’s a repeated world champion, but you see my point.)
Anyway, as my old mate used to love saying:
“If ‘ifs’ and ‘ands’ were pots and pans, there’d be no need for tinkers.”
We know Vettel is a very good racing driver, but when he won his Championships he was in clearly the fastest car and was a clear step the better driver vs Mark Webber. There was friction in the team but Vettel always had the edge and subsequently never came under that much pressure. Once Danny Ric showed up the shine came off Vettel and ever since then he’s been shown to be a bit of hot head under pressure, especially by German standards! His reaction to qualifying and especially the way he just backed right off Verstappen and looked so down beat after the race, I think he’s coming to the conclusion he can’t match Hamilton and he, understandably, doesn’t like it.
*not that the reason for doing it makes any difference
When it goes too far is like Ferrari in Austria in 2002 I think. 6 races in to the season and telling your number 2 driver he can’t win - not quite the same as 5 races to go and the number 2 driver is out of the championship cos he hasn’t been quick enough up to that point.
I'd let my mother in law pass me on the track for that sort of money.
People say he done it for the team, no it was done for Hamilton, the team would have got the same points.
Hamilton got 7 points more than he would of done, why sacrifice your own professional ethics for 7 points.
If that was me no way would I have let him pass, what are they gonna do, they cant sack you as they would have no legal standing.
Also why betting shouldnt be allowed on F1, how many people lost money because tje team decided Hamilton should win the race.
How is what VB done any worse than Stephen Lee throwing a frame in snooker or a football team throwing a match.
Anyone betting on Formula One should know the rules before they make a bet as there is a chance that drivers will swap positions, meaning their bet could always be compromised.
Good job you've stopped gambling then @paulie8290
100% agree with this
Hamilton, for example, partakes in an activity involving physical exertion and skill competing against others. Bottas, on the other hand, is a person who behaves in a good or specified way in response to a situation.
When I raised the issue a couple of years ago regarding the lack of competitiveness in motor racing I was told by F1 fans that this isn't the case. But when only two teams can win F1 and just one person from each team is allowed to do too that simply isn't competitive sport.
I was going to say it's a bit like the Scottish Premiership. But even that now is more competitive than F1.