Not a rant but the facts as they are and articulated brilliantly - thanks bobmunro for introducing sanity to what is becoming a madhouse full bitterness.
Again, your facts are nothing of the sort. How many of the Valley Party people have called for Duchatelet to sell up and go? Steve Dixon ... who else? Is he not entitled to hold that view? If there are others, name them and show where and when they have said this.
So much of the pro-RD rhetoric is built on fantasy. Sorry if it's dull, but again the facts don't fit your analysis. Two former Valley Party people are playing a leading role as members of the trust board - Steve Clarke and Richard Hunt. Has either of them called for RD to sell up and go? Where and when?
How were former Valley Party members leading the unrest around KM's handling of the Peeters/Luzon debacle? There was a large, spontaneous and hostile response to the club's behaviour across all social media. If you or bobmunro can show otherwise, please do, but otherwise don't insult the intelligence of the majority of fans.
I am happy to correct 'members of the cohort' to 'a member of the cohort'. Where did I link the liargate reference to the Valley Party cohort? I agree that was a wider group responding to it and was a separate paragraph - my link to the VP cohort was the G21 and the Trust meeting.
I'm happy to stand by every word as 'my view' - you have a different view, Rick, with I respect but disagree with. Selectively or incorrectly quoting opponents of your view won't change that.
You refer to "the unrest" in the following sentence to "the lynching" so I think it's a reasonable interpretation, but fair enough. We can all have our views and will. Where I draw the line is with Tommy's assertion that they are "the facts as they are" because they are not facts. Just someone's opinion.
You seem to be saying that RD shouldn't be expected to speak to people who have previously served on the board or are currently involved in dialogue with RM because of something that you now concede only Steve Dixon among that cohort has said. People like Steve Clarke, Craig Norris and Richard Hunt have a professional background and are quite capable of entering into a rational and reasonable dialogue with Duchatelet - as they did with Richard Murray and Martin Simons with productive consequences all those years ago.
I doubt if Steve Dixon would be interested in speaking to RD, but why would his view preclude the others - because he was involved with them in a successful campaign to get back to The Valley 25 years ago? Bit of a stretch, I suggest. Equally, what right do they have to constrain Steve Dixon from expressing his perfectly genuine opinion and which is evidently shared by at least some others present at the meeting from outside the Valley Party group?
Rick - we'll probably go around in circles on this one so my final word.
Where did I say Steve Dixon should be restrained? I made the comment that his expressed view was destructive to any attempt at dialogue but did not suggest that he should be gagged.
I stand by the facts that the G21 and the majority of activists in setting up the meeting on Wednesday were linked to the VP.
If I were Roland then I would not particularly welcome dialogue with that group based on the tactics they have used - this being adversarial rather than collaborative. You may say 'we've tried that' - but the G21 was launched before he'd hardly got his feet under the table.
I am not pro network or RD or anything other than pro Charlton Athletic Football Club - and if you could be bothered (probably not worth it - really) to search my previous comments over the past 14 months or so on this topic you will find that I have been non-judgmental. I just happen to fundamentally disagree with the tactics currently being adopted.
Adversarial? The G21 statement was one about engagement. That is all it turned out to be as well, a statement. Things have now developed since those times.
Fairly sure the question of a season ticket boycott can be described as adversarial.
The only Conduit we have to Roland Duchatelet seems to be Richard Murray ?
Katrien must be told to sort it out your self, that's why your my CEO, by Roland.
The chap at the meeting who said he was 71 and lets try to by pass KM, and get our message straight to the owner by so many emails and texts or any other method. sounds like a good idea.
Perception, that really is the word,
when we lose, all the poor communication is amplified,
Murray told Roland that we were a family club, True in my case with sometimes 10 in the squad who might turn up. but the Richardson's and Kray's were a family too, so i guess he meant the positive's of a family club. These links are being broken at the moment ? again perceptions.
Has Duchatelet been told about the Valley party and what lengths Cafc fans will go to ? he should have an Empathy with that ?
The ideal would be that that say 5 fans who represent the 5 views:
The very pro, the slightly pro, unsure, the slightly anti, the shove your network where the sun don't shine.
Meet Roland Duchatelet And talk, and talk and talk,
Roland pays for this over dinner with wine, beer etc.
Rather this than a civil war between Fans.
If he say it "my way or the highway" than we can decide.
Until then lets support the team like we did against Brentford.
Some great contributions and an even handed discussion.
Glad I attended as I now know how to pronounce - Katrien correctly 'Ca-tree-en' not 'catreene'.
Some practise with working the mic beforehand before the next meeting though.
Trying to talk to Duchatelet is a good idea. Pulling together of the whole of Charlton support, club, manager and owner will give a chance for the club to be successful. I will be a surprise though if Duchatelet or Ca-tree-en will listen and play ball with that vision.
Perversely I think there is more chance of being taken seriously if the team is doing well. It will prove it is not just hysterical fans moaning about a losing streak and will take some of the heat out of any engagement.
Perversely I think there is more chance of being taken seriously if the team is doing well. It will prove it is not just hysterical fans moaning about a losing streak and will take some of the heat out of any engagement.
Completely agree - us winning 3-0 a couple of days before the meeting was the best thing that could have happened. Us doing it again since then just makes me happy !
Barnie was a huge driving force behind The Trust. He started with an idea and drove it forward into being a very important voice for all Charlton fans. He deserves great credit. Big shoes to fill.
Thinking of the great work that the Trust is currently doing with the Olympic Stadium petition brought to mind this thread - less than six months old!
I think it's fair to say that, at the moment, everything is not perfect but definitely more positive.
Also reminded me of one of the soundbites at the meeting: "Do you want to support an independent football club or the London franchise of a European football network?" At the time I thought it was a intentionally emotive comment (but possibly appropriate considering the subject that evening) and rather unfair.
We are what we are and overall I like the direction in which we are moving.
It was still the right decision at the time to have this meeting, future actions by the club don't change that at all but its fantastic that many fears seem to have been dispelled and we seem to be on the up, well done the club for that.
Hopefully the lesson to be learned for the current regime from this period & the Luzon hiring period is to talk to the fans, you want to build a better future together, then bring us a long fully, not just as customers, we can deal with the negative news, just be straight with us.
Here is hoping these days are looked back in future seasons as the low point for many of us fans under RD, the owner who got us back in the top tier.
I thought about this today and wondered what the fans perception were now.
I think the reservations may still be there but while results are decent on the pitch they are put to the back of the mind and people go with the flow.
It's sometimes alternatively described as the fickleness of football fans! The villain this week is the hero next week unless his name is Pope, Fox, Harriott or Makienok
For me, the football side of things seems fantastic right now. A decent manager with a decent squad playing well and picking up results. Still a bit more to do on the recruitment side but we still have a week to go in the transfer window.
The only concern that I can see is the stuff that is going on off the pitch. The season ticket debacle and online ticketing issues, food and drink outlets, programme sellers (although now rightfuly back) and the Valley Express/Valley Away issues to name but a few. Although these do not have a direct effect on what happens on the pitch, it has a direct effect on us, the fans that support the team. Although a football club is nothing like a supermarket in that if we get pissed off about Tesco we will go to Sainsbury's, we would not go and support another club. However, it definitely puts a sour taste in some people's mouths, and whilst one person giving up their season ticket might only lose the club £400 plus a bit more in loss of matchday revenue, if a lot of people give up their season tickets/stop buying match by match/buying food and drink at the ground it is amazing how quick that loss of revenue adds up. Whether or not that will have a detrimental effect on budgets for the playing side I do not know.
The sooner the club sort out these commercial issues the better.
Agree with all the above comments, personally. The biggest positive for me is the apparently stunning close season performance of the scouting network.
Also want to reassure people that the Trust isn't consumed by the Olympic thing (although possibly I am :-)) We want to help address the issues @Ross mentioned too in coming days.
Since the meeting back in february is Ms Meire now speaking to the trust? Or is it as we were back six months ago.
She is, yes. Especially on the OS. We would like it to be more regular and consistent, but yes. We also have more regular dialogue with people who report to Katrien. She of course wants and needs to delegate, especially during the transfer window. RM continues to help, and we have learnt that RD is aware of of our OS activity. We have not heard anything about what he thinks but we suppose this kind of activity is a pleasant surprise to him, since at Liege he was used to fan groups busting into his office and providing him with their observations on his many "mistakes".
We have work to do to further improve the dialogue. It would greatly help us if people could join/rejoin the Trust if you approve of our OS work.
Have the Club taken up any proposals put to them by the Trust, or even acknowledged some of them despite not moving forward?
I'm not the best person to answer that, maybe @rikofold. But certainly yes to the second part.
It was really illuminating to talk to the other Trusts at the Supporter Summit. Most of them had the same issues we did when it comes to dialogue. It's very common for the club to have an attitude of "why would we want to talk to you, we are the professionals". One of the most startling exceptions turned out to be Chelsea. They have a meeting with Bruce Buck every six weeks. We said they were about the last club that we'd have expected to achieve this. They said it took years, really years and you just have to be patient and keep plugging away. Top people BTW.
While you are there, mate, is your offer re Hislop still valid? I think I PMed you without reply (apologies if not)
We've shared ideas, I think Razil might lay claim to a couple that saw the light of day but it's been early days for us. Most of the good ideas that have come out of the club in the last year or so are Lisa's, to be honest.
Where we have been of value so far is the information we've been able to provide the club.
There must be somewhere warmer, perhaps near the Valley home dressing room at half time...
I can't believe this lull is permanent, have to admit I haven't been to many games so far due to other major commitments and not having a proper job yet that pays money anyway.
The initial makings of the squad was looking so promising, it just doesn't add up, perhaps there are too many gambles, perhaps the cash spent wasnt anywhere near that runoured. Perhaps Luzon is too much of a firecracker, perhaps sods law u put a thinish squad up and injuries hit, perhaps not enough goal scorers throughout the team.
In bad times you see a good coach turn it around, its a major test for him and sadly a little too early on. Its alarming what has happened to Veto.
Comments
To clarify, I wasn't referring to either the G21 or Airman's proposal for a ST 'boycott'.
I was just trying to point out that there are several threads on this forum that if RM or KM are reading, they would see as being adversarial.
Katrien must be told to sort it out your self, that's why your my CEO, by Roland.
The chap at the meeting who said he was 71 and lets try to by pass KM, and get our message straight to the owner by so many emails and texts or any other method. sounds like a good idea.
Perception, that really is the word,
when we lose, all the poor communication is amplified,
Murray told Roland that we were a family club, True in my case with sometimes 10 in the squad who might turn up. but the Richardson's and Kray's were a family too, so i guess he meant the positive's of a family club. These links are being broken at the moment ? again perceptions.
Has Duchatelet been told about the Valley party and what lengths Cafc fans will go to ? he should have an Empathy with that ?
The ideal would be that that say 5 fans who represent the 5 views:
The very pro, the slightly pro, unsure, the slightly anti, the shove your network where the sun don't shine.
Meet Roland Duchatelet And talk, and talk and talk,
Roland pays for this over dinner with wine, beer etc.
Rather this than a civil war between Fans.
If he say it "my way or the highway" than we can decide.
Until then lets support the team like we did against Brentford.
It is a shame that the club do not realise/want that.
2.55 in
Glad I attended as I now know how to pronounce - Katrien correctly 'Ca-tree-en' not 'catreene'.
Some practise with working the mic beforehand before the next meeting though.
Trying to talk to Duchatelet is a good idea. Pulling together of the whole of Charlton support, club, manager and owner will give a chance for the club to be successful. I will be a surprise though if Duchatelet or Ca-tree-en will listen and play ball with that vision.
If this has already been said on one of the previous 42 pages then I apologise.
We'll done barnie
Well done on all your efforts.
Sterling work.
I think it's fair to say that, at the moment, everything is not perfect but definitely more positive.
Also reminded me of one of the soundbites at the meeting: "Do you want to support an independent football club or the London franchise of a European football network?" At the time I thought it was a intentionally emotive comment (but possibly appropriate considering the subject that evening) and rather unfair.
We are what we are and overall I like the direction in which we are moving.
Hopefully the lesson to be learned for the current regime from this period & the Luzon hiring period is to talk to the fans, you want to build a better future together, then bring us a long fully, not just as customers, we can deal with the negative news, just be straight with us.
Here is hoping these days are looked back in future seasons as the low point for many of us fans under RD, the owner who got us back in the top tier.
I am feeling positive now for sure.
It's sometimes alternatively described as the fickleness of football fans! The villain this week is the hero next week unless his name is Pope, Fox, Harriott or Makienok
:-)
The only concern that I can see is the stuff that is going on off the pitch. The season ticket debacle and online ticketing issues, food and drink outlets, programme sellers (although now rightfuly back) and the Valley Express/Valley Away issues to name but a few. Although these do not have a direct effect on what happens on the pitch, it has a direct effect on us, the fans that support the team. Although a football club is nothing like a supermarket in that if we get pissed off about Tesco we will go to Sainsbury's, we would not go and support another club. However, it definitely puts a sour taste in some people's mouths, and whilst one person giving up their season ticket might only lose the club £400 plus a bit more in loss of matchday revenue, if a lot of people give up their season tickets/stop buying match by match/buying food and drink at the ground it is amazing how quick that loss of revenue adds up. Whether or not that will have a detrimental effect on budgets for the playing side I do not know.
The sooner the club sort out these commercial issues the better.
Also want to reassure people that the Trust isn't consumed by the Olympic thing (although possibly I am :-)) We want to help address the issues @Ross mentioned too in coming days.
We have work to do to further improve the dialogue. It would greatly help us if people could join/rejoin the Trust if you approve of our OS work.
It was really illuminating to talk to the other Trusts at the Supporter Summit. Most of them had the same issues we did when it comes to dialogue. It's very common for the club to have an attitude of "why would we want to talk to you, we are the professionals". One of the most startling exceptions turned out to be Chelsea. They have a meeting with Bruce Buck every six weeks. We said they were about the last club that we'd have expected to achieve this. They said it took years, really years and you just have to be patient and keep plugging away. Top people BTW.
While you are there, mate, is your offer re Hislop still valid? I think I PMed you without reply (apologies if not)
Where we have been of value so far is the information we've been able to provide the club.
I can't believe this lull is permanent, have to admit I haven't been to many games so far due to other major commitments and not having a proper job yet that pays money anyway.
The initial makings of the squad was looking so promising, it just doesn't add up, perhaps there are too many gambles, perhaps the cash spent wasnt anywhere near that runoured. Perhaps Luzon is too much of a firecracker, perhaps sods law u put a thinish squad up and injuries hit, perhaps not enough goal scorers throughout the team.
In bad times you see a good coach turn it around, its a major test for him and sadly a little too early on. Its alarming what has happened to Veto.