Really poor performance. Blackburn are a good side but we made them look even better.
For a start, playing Solly on the right wing was odd. I understand that we want to see Gomez as much as possible, but I'd rather see Solly at RB and Gomez at LB. Fox wasn't our worst player yesterday but I think Gomez can do a better job than him.
We've been used to Bikey and Ben Haim winning pretty much everything in the air. Well, yesterday they won practically nothing. Rhodes and Gestede tormented us from the off and won every aerial ball, putting us under more pressure and indeed leading to the second goal. By contrast, the Blackburn centre-backs won everything, not giving Igor or Pigott a sniff. It wasn't just in the air either; it seemed Blackburn players came away with the ball after every tackle.
It's obvious how fragile Pope's confidence is. He and Cousins were both guilty for the first goal, as the ball shouldn't really have been played short but Cousins should still have dealt with it quicker. From then on it was inevitable that Rhodes would score. Shortly afterwards Pope dropped a cross under no pressure whatsoever and we conceded a corner. The second goal came from a long ball, Rhodes nipped in ahead of Ben Haim and poked it beyond Pope, who I think should have been stronger. 2-0 after 20 minutes, and the game was as good as over. It's worth mentioning that he did make a couple of fine saves after that, so it's clearly not shot-stopping that's the problem for him. But given the rave reviews from York fans about his aerial domination it's worrying how bad he's been in that regard for us.
We barely created anything. One decent cross from Solly in the first half which both Igor and Wilson might have done better with (though I'm not sure as it was at the far end) and a good move leading to a fluffed right-footed effort from Harriott was all we could muster. We played a little better in the second half but still barely troubled the keeper. Bikey and Vetokele headed off-target from corners, but that was it.
The most troubling thing was that whatever we tried to do was easily foiled. When we passed it out from the back Blackburn swarmed all over us and we ended up booting it long and losing it. When Pope did take goal kicks long our forwards were beaten to the ball every time, and our midfield was always second to the loose ball. Whilst we have been dealt a big blow by losing Jackson and Coquelin at the same time, the decline in our midfield from its early season pomp is shocking.
Wasn't at the game, haven't watched the Football League Show so am reliant on what I've read on here and from BP's post-match analysis.
I'm not sure if we can blame BP entirely over selection, as in all fairness he hasn't got a lot of players to choose from. We're a thin squad (as one lifer put it - apologies I can't remember who or which thread) "our squad is thin enough to make Kate Moss look chubby".
Sounds like all the hard work was done in advance for a bit of gen on the opposition - but it all got forgotten in the heat of battle. I appreciate that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" but to play into their hands when the squad all knew full well how they would square up is almost unforgivable. I don't blame BP for saying he didn't know why they did that - they were clearly "ignoring orders". I can imagine the half-time chat was probably less than comfortable - and that would be only reasonable, too.
Whilst I do get annoyed at some of the squad, I don't think getting on their back will do anyone any favours. It's clear Pope is feeling it - he needs more support from the rest of the team not us lot slagging him off. Fox has potential but seems to flap when he is under pressure. Aherne-Grant is the mutts nuts but is young and needs to develop - expecting him to be top drawer now is a big ask and I think he is stepping up well. Cousins and Harriottcan be great when they are played in the right position and have someone to partner with well.
Ultimately we lack depth and experience under pressure. So unless we have investment in the squad then we have to take the risk that when we are beset with injuries as we are now, that our results will suffer as accordingly. Add to the fact that if everyone was fully fit we still need a striker, then we are well and truly floating slowly down a certain creek without a paddle.
The transfer window is imminent - come on Roland - open up those purse strings and get some backup in for the lads.
Just to add to comments that we are relegation-bound - I don't think we are. But proof that getting goals in the net to give wins shows what Fulham have achieved in turning things around - and they are now one place in the table behind us. I think we will stay up - but it will be a roller coaster until the end of the season, that's for sure.
It may have been mentioned before – but I think a direct comparison of our stats with current league leaders Bournemouth tells you all you need to know about where our problems are:
Position Team P W D L F A GD Pts 1 Bournemouth 22 12 6 4 50 25 25 42 12 Charlton 22 6 12 4 23 24 -1 30
Both teams have lost 4 games and Bournemouth have actually conceded 1 more goal than us. But whereas we've only scored 23 goals they've scored 50 (27 more than us) and our positions on wins and draws are exactly reversed – we've won 6 and drawn 12 they've won 12 and drawn 6.
So while we may have started to make more mistakes at the back recently (and it's worth debating why) – overall it's lack of goals that are the problem and (at least) another competent striker is needed to start to turn it round.
Pretty obvious I know – but I think it's useful to see the stats set out like that.
Ben Haim and Bikey both at fault for the second. Harsh to only blame Pope.
To be honest having watched the replay of the goals a few times that's pretty much my conclusion too - I think Ben Haim especially seems to have gone off the boil the last few weeks, I like to see us with a centre back pairing of Gomez & Bikey.
Superb post from Fanny. Chocolate Fingers on the pulse. First defeat i have missed this season, sounds like the Bournemouth game, where we conceded early, then some how got away with them missing chances or decent saves by the keeper.
Igor early Goal scoring form papered over the cracks. At Brighton we were battered for large parts of the game but because of two quality Goals by Igor we had a 2-2, otherwise another game similar to Yesterday. Fulham 1st half, Rotherham 2nd half, so many games were we have been chasing shadows.
The Derby home game now looks like a false dawn.
If Bob Peeters remit was just to keep us in the championship this season, could this be a reason why we are so negative at times, because he's worried about a big defeat similar to Atkins at Reading ?
If we were 12th after being in the bottom 6, It never seems as bad as being 12th after being in the top 6.
Try and keep the faith, i know i'm struggling. Let's chill out guys, there's always teams worse off? We could be Blackpool fans!
It would be hard to imagine the team performing worse than they did in the first half an hour. They were lethargic, careless, seldom able to get possession and unable to keep it when they got it. The back five were full of mistakes and the midfield four were ragged and most of the time out of shape, allowing Blackburn to find space between the lines.
Team selection could not explain this poor start, but it undoubtedly did not help. Playing a fantastic full back in right midfield might have been worth trying in Jackson’s absence, but it’s not worth persevering with. Also, Gudmundsson, who was our only glimmer of hope in the first half, is not going to offer much support to the full back behind him, and this exposed Fox. To be fair to BP he was decisive in correcting these problems. 30 minutes is very early for a tactical substitution, but it was needed. At the same time he swapped Gudmundsson and Harriott. and although Harriott might not be the strongest defensively, he did provide a bit more defensive solidity down the left side.
With the half-time sub of Pigott for Harriott, we were playing 4312, and for half an hour this worked well. We played some good football during this period, albeit without any real cutting edge.
What should we learn from this game?
Well, while Wiggins is out, Gomez and Solly is better than Gomez and Fox with Solly in mid-field, or Solly and Fox.
What is done with Gudmundsson needs careful thought. He’s our best technical player and our most creative one, and so he has to play. I don’t think it makes sense to try to change him into the defensively disciplined player he currently is not. That would seem to argue a free role just behind the striker(s). In many ways he resembles Ajdarevic - could be seen as a luxury, but at present he seems to be the only mid-fielder we have who is likely to be productive in opening up opposing defences.
It will all change around if we get a CF who can win the ball in the front line against the opposition centre backs and hold it up. This will allow Vetokele to play as the second striker running in behind, which forces the opposition B4 drop off ten yards, allowing space for the central midfielders to link-up with the Front two in build-up play. The wide midfielders can also come inside to join in the play or capitalise on the possession won in the front line. The B4 will also get time to push up behind the midfield, where at the moment the ball is coming straight back at them and they are forced to defend the 18 yard line for long spells. A good CF holding it up in the front-line, will allow time for the whole team to move further up the pitch.
The manager will know that, the staff will know that and the players know that. The problem seems to be BP getting the support from RD to bring in a quality CF, rather than a cheap option from the network. Tucudean is a decent CF, but lacks the pace and physical strength to play against Championship Centre Backs, he is not suited to English football. most of the network players we have seen so far are not suited to English football. we need a CF who is suited to playing in the Championship, otherwise the same problem will persist in the second half of the season.
Your observations are always interesting, insightful and instructive @Tutt-Tutt. I assume that you have a background in the game.
I don't have any such experience, but even to an untrained eye it's clear that there is a fundamental problem with our game management which needs to be addressed. The data suggests that we are bottom of the Championship table for shots and chances created, but that we are faring quite well in terms of our conversion rate.
As you suggest, it would seem that what we need, therefore, is not a goal scorer per se, but an ability to get better possession in the top third, enabling us to get men forward in support and hence to create more chances, whoever they fall to.
Hence, the player you describe need not be a goal scorer and we shouldn't judge potential signings as such. Indeed, a top finisher who can't play the role you describe may not help very much.
If I were dreaming of candidates I might highlight Lukas Jutkiewicz of Burnley. He hasn't scored this season and, overall, doesn't have a great goal scoring record, but he might be ideal for us. While Jutkiewicz might be out of reach, if the club is in tune with your logic he's the type of playing we'll be looking at, not another Andy Delort type with lots of goals, but lacking the power to play the role you envisage.
Just got in. Thank God I only had a 100-mile round trip. I haven't read the previous posts, but that was arguably the worst display I have seen from us in all the 37 years I've been going to games. Should have seen it coming when the team sheet was published. BP must take responsibility, square pegs etc. Solly didn't have a clue, Gomez got a nosebleed every time he went over the 1/2 way line. Both surrendered possession effortlessly. Harriott has gone backwards since last season, although he has shown the odd glimpse of promise recently, today there was absolutely no attacking threat. He was run off the ball time and time again. Then there's the issue with Pope. His confidence seemed shattered from the start. Their support dug the knife in every time the ball went near him. You could actually see the pressure getting to him. To give him some credit he did make 2 brilliant saves 2nd half, but for me that's 4 goals out of 4 he needs to answer for. I can't understand why Bulot didn't start, and early on in the season Igor was feeding off George really well and plenty were saying George would get better and better given time. Obviously no vote of confidence from BP, the goals have dried up for Igor and it looks like we will need to rely on RD for new recruits. My son wants me to mention he thought Igor worked tirelessly especially in the 2nd half. BP has been hit hard losing the Coq, but he's showing a certain level of naivety the last few games with his inept set up.
I can't comment on the game, didn't go and havent seen highlights. Sighed when i saw Solly in CM again. Sadly, Philip Lahm and Bayern Munich, we ain't.
What I will say, very worried we've already run out of puff before a very important part of the season with games coming thick and fast.
Your observations are always interesting, insightful and instructive @Tutt-Tutt. I assume that you have a background in the game.
I don't have any such experience, but even to an untrained eye it's clear that there is a fundamental problem with our game management which needs to be addressed. The data suggests that we are bottom of the Championship table for shots and chances created, but that we are faring quite well in terms of our conversion rate.
As you suggest, it would seem that what we need, therefore, is not a goal scorer per se, but an ability to get better possession in the top third, enabling us to get men forward in support and hence to create more chances, whoever they fall to.
Hence, the player you describe need not be a goal scorer and we shouldn't judge potential signings as such. Indeed, a top finisher who can't play the role you describe may not help very much.
If I were dreaming of candidates I might highlight Lukas Jutkiewicz of Burnley. He hasn't scored this season and, overall, doesn't have a great goal scoring record, but he might be ideal for us. While Jutkiewicz might be out of reach, if the club is in tune with your logic he's the type of playing we'll be looking at, not another Andy Delort type with lots of goals, but lacking the power to play the role you envisage.
The views from Epsom and KHA are spot on. I don't think we can blame the formation or shape for what happened in the first 20 minutes at Ewood, it was like rabbits in the headlights. We could barely control the football, let alone pass it. Saying that, Blackburn's workrate off the ball was exemplary, they closed down in numbers, were more physical and it was pretty much game, set and match midway through that first half. A lot of established first team players let us down on Saturday in that first half (Buyens, Vetekole, Bikey and Ben Haim in particular) while some of the younger players were found out.
Despite the individual errors I do get frustrated with our game plan though. I admire Bob's ethos of playing the ball out of the back but we just don't have the personnel to play that way at the moment. We have far too many players who are uncomfortable on the ball under pressure and every time I have seen us play this season (only 4 times!) the opposition have pressed right up the field and we've made mistakes that led to goals. The problem is that there isn't an out ball. We don't have sufficient movement to provide options for players on the ball and we don't have the strength or runners in the channels to hit it long if no short pass is available. As a result, there is nothing stopping a well drilled opposition pushing as far up the pitch us possible when we have the ball becasue there is absolutely no risk of us either going long or through them.
With regards to fielding the youngsters, we have to be careful. Some of them are not up to Championship football and never will be. I feel Fox and Piggott are playing quite a few levels above their current ability and playing them is doing more harm to them than good. Gomez is fine, he is more than capable at this level as is Cousins. Nick Pope is full of potential. His shot stopping is immense as is his kicking game, but as soon as he has time to think about making a catch or coming for a cross he is like a frightened kitten. Every time he touched the ball he had 15000 fans on his back. I really do think he will be a great keeper but he has to work hard on mental side of his game which probably will mean loaning him out to a lower level team for a bit. Ability wise there is no problem.
A lot of established first team players let us down on Saturday in that first half (Buyens, Vetekole, Bikey and Ben Haim in particular) while some of the younger players were found out.
You have to remember that while Igor is a regular, he is also only 22.
I think if you're going to try a new partner for Igor, he needs to be given a run of 4 or 5 games to establish said partnership. Be that Ahearne-Grant, who has impressed me from what I've seen this season or Pigott, who must be impressing in training and for the development squad to have leap-frogged KAG. Tucudean looks like a poor mans Dzeko to me and I reckon Bob has lost patience with him. We've tried Moussa and Harriot playing up with or off Igor and it just isn't working.
For me, up until JJ was injured I thought we were playing well as a team. We weren't scoring but, really, in every other area we were doing alright. The back 5 were solid regardless of who was in goal. TBH and Bikey were immense because they felt comfortable with who they had around them. The midfield, although not creating too much, was still pretty solid. Agreed, Coq going back to Arsenal didn't help but, overall, our midfield was keeping games tight and were competitive even before Coq came. The obvious shortfall was up front and the support needed for Igor. This, to me, was very clear cut and I was feeling confident that Bob could see this and that in the January window it would be sorted out.
However, since JJ was injured things have changed in my eyes. Bob elected, for whatever reason, to change the formation. Putting Solly in midfield has disrupted not only the defense but also the mid field. With Pope, Fox and Gomez back there I can see why TBH and Bikey are suddenly out of sorts. That is no discredit to those three but it is a heavy responsibility to put on three young players in an area of the field which, to me, is the most important for the backbone of any team. Also, moving Solly up to the middle has disrupted the midfield where I feel we had adequate coverage with the players we had in JBG, Cousins, Buyens, Harriott and Bulot. They are out of sorts now as well.
So, the result of all that, in my eyes, is that we have gone from being a team where it was obvious where the shortfall was (ie. support for Igor), to a team where we have so many shortfalls all over the pitch that's it's difficult to see where the problem lies. This is crucial as we approach the January window, as it's so important to have a clear picture of where we need reinforcements. Having said that, I recognise that Bob is an innovative young coach and all credit to him for wanting to try different things, but I think he needs to recognise that this change just isn't working and to revert back to how we were straight away. Otherwise I can see other teams taking us apart a bit.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" as they say, and I would say we weren't broken, apart from the support for Igor bit, but now that has changed in my eyes.
Teams are pressing us but it is curious to me that playing out from the back, the FB's aren't an option even when Wiggins was fit. Should be easy to play out in little triangles but unless we can play out though the middle, it goes back to keeper and hoof.
Just got in. Thank God I only had a 100-mile round trip. I haven't read the previous posts, but that was arguably the worst display I have seen from us in all the 37 years I've been going to games. Should have seen it coming when the team sheet was published. BP must take responsibility, square pegs etc. Solly didn't have a clue, Gomez got a nosebleed every time he went over the 1/2 way line. Both surrendered possession effortlessly. Harriott has gone backwards since last season, although he has shown the odd glimpse of promise recently, today there was absolutely no attacking threat. He was run off the ball time and time again. Then there's the issue with Pope. His confidence seemed shattered from the start. Their support dug the knife in every time the ball went near him. You could actually see the pressure getting to him. To give him some credit he did make 2 brilliant saves 2nd half, but for me that's 4 goals out of 4 he needs to answer for. I can't understand why Bulot didn't start, and early on in the season Igor was feeding off George really well and plenty were saying George would get better and better given time. Obviously no vote of confidence from BP, the goals have dried up for Igor and it looks like we will need to rely on RD for new recruits. My son wants me to mention he thought Igor worked tirelessly especially in the 2nd half. BP has been hit hard losing the Coq, but he's showing a certain level of naivety the last few games with his inept set up.
This! Solly is our best left back when Wiggins injured. Bulot has hardly featured recently - why? Coquelin going was a blow but on paper we should still have a decent midfield with Cousins, Buyens, Gudmundsson and Bulot plus Wilson.
Simple fact is that Henderson, Bikey, Ben Haim and Jackson have built up an understanding and we are missing two of those four right now... Badly!
Two home games coming up versus Cardiff and Blackburn in the cup - all to play for - anyone can beat anyone in this division.
Your observations are always interesting, insightful and instructive @Tutt-Tutt. I assume that you have a background in the game.
I don't have any such experience, but even to an untrained eye it's clear that there is a fundamental problem with our game management which needs to be addressed. The data suggests that we are bottom of the Championship table for shots and chances created, but that we are faring quite well in terms of our conversion rate.
As you suggest, it would seem that what we need, therefore, is not a goal scorer per se, but an ability to get better possession in the top third, enabling us to get men forward in support and hence to create more chances, whoever they fall to.
Hence, the player you describe need not be a goal scorer and we shouldn't judge potential signings as such. Indeed, a top finisher who can't play the role you describe may not help very much.
If I were dreaming of candidates I might highlight Lukas Jutkiewicz of Burnley. He hasn't scored this season and, overall, doesn't have a great goal scoring record, but he might be ideal for us. While Jutkiewicz might be out of reach, if the club is in tune with your logic he's the type of playing we'll be looking at, not another Andy Delort type with lots of goals, but lacking the power to play the role you envisage.
Tutt Tutt is Alan Curbishley.
if only. I sat next to him once at Cambridge United. he was doing his homework on john Beck's team. long balls into the corners, long throws into the box, ball boys with towels to dry the ball, etc, etc. Very interesting to talk to.
I've no idea who we should sign or who is good value in the transfer market, to fill the CF role. I would be guessing. Phil Chapple will have a list of players he's tracking. Afobe is doing well at MK Cons. It's probably time he stepped up to the Championship on loan, as a name to throw into the ring.
Your observations are always interesting, insightful and instructive @Tutt-Tutt. I assume that you have a background in the game.
I don't have any such experience, but even to an untrained eye it's clear that there is a fundamental problem with our game management which needs to be addressed. The data suggests that we are bottom of the Championship table for shots and chances created, but that we are faring quite well in terms of our conversion rate.
As you suggest, it would seem that what we need, therefore, is not a goal scorer per se, but an ability to get better possession in the top third, enabling us to get men forward in support and hence to create more chances, whoever they fall to.
Hence, the player you describe need not be a goal scorer and we shouldn't judge potential signings as such. Indeed, a top finisher who can't play the role you describe may not help very much.
If I were dreaming of candidates I might highlight Lukas Jutkiewicz of Burnley. He hasn't scored this season and, overall, doesn't have a great goal scoring record, but he might be ideal for us. While Jutkiewicz might be out of reach, if the club is in tune with your logic he's the type of playing we'll be looking at, not another Andy Delort type with lots of goals, but lacking the power to play the role you envisage.
Tutt Tutt is Alan Curbishley.
if only. I sat next to him once at Cambridge United. he was doing his homework on john Beck's team. long balls into the corners, long throws into the box, ball boys with towels to dry the ball, etc, etc. Very interesting to talk to.
I've no idea who we should sign or who is good value in the transfer market, to fill the CF role. I would be guessing. Phil Chapple will have a list of players he's tracking. Afobe is doing well at MK Cons. It's probably time he stepped up to the Championship on loan, as a name to throw into the ring.
Good call, I thought the same about this lad the other night after watching FL show and the game time we gave Coquelin would stand us in good stead for any such approach. Only trouble is he's on loan with the franchise for the whole season. http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20140804/afobe-joins-mk-dons-on-loan
Teams are pressing us but it is curious to me that playing out from the back, the FB's aren't an option even when Wiggins was fit. Should be easy to play out in little triangles but unless we can play out though the middle, it goes back to keeper and hoof.
Been reading the Marti Perarnau book about Pep Guardiola's first season at Bayern Munich. Those who have a few miles on the clock, as I do, might remember the Glory Game by Hunter Davies. This is very similar. A journalist was given privileged access to Bayern's dressing room et al for a full year, on the proviso that everything was confidential until the end of the season.
Haven't finished it yet and I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but some of the material is interesting. The reason I mention it is that Guardiola, who comes across as completely obsessive, has very clear views about playing styles. He's a disciple of Johan Cruyff, as we know, and has Bayern's players practising the rondo, but he says that he hates Tiquitaca. "Tiquitaca is a load of shit", he rages. He wants the ball played out from the back, but not just for the sake of it. There has to be a purpose. There is no point recycling the ball in a "U". The ball needs to be moved quickly and lines broken so that the entire team advances.
That's not easy. Guardiola gets lucky and finds that Lahm takes to his new role as pivot like a duck to water and, of course, he has many other outstanding players. Unfortunately, its not clear that Bob Peeters has the players to play the way he wants to play. Buyens is the pivot, but often his only option is to play the ball back to his centre-backs and we end up playing in a "U" without moving upfield. The players around Buyens, at full back and in midfield, aren't good enough on the ball when under pressure. Then with no long ball option available as an outlet, we are too easy to press with the result that we are caught in possession or pass without real intent. A big striker might make a major difference, as Tutt-Tutt explained, but if Bob Peeters wants to play his passing game we'll also need to find a player, or two, who is more comfortable in possession than a number of the current squad.
Teams are pressing us but it is curious to me that playing out from the back, the FB's aren't an option even when Wiggins was fit. Should be easy to play out in little triangles but unless we can play out though the middle, it goes back to keeper and hoof.
Been reading the Marti Perarnau book about Pep Guardiola's first season at Bayern Munich. Those who have a few miles on the clock, as I do, might remember the Glory Game by Hunter Davies. This is very similar. A journalist was given privileged access to Bayern's dressing room et al for a full year, on the proviso that everything was confidential until the end of the season.
Haven't finished it yet and I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but some of the material is interesting. The reason I mention it is that Guardiola, who comes across as completely obsessive, has very clear views about playing styles. He's a disciple of Johan Cruyff, as we know, and has Bayern's players practising the rondo, but he says that he hates Tiquitaca. "Tiquitaca is a load of shit", he rages. He wants the ball played out from the back, but not just for the sake of it. There has to be a purpose. There is no point recycling the ball in a "U". The ball needs to be moved quickly and lines broken so that the entire team advances.
That's not easy. Guardiola gets lucky and finds that Lahm takes to his new role as pivot like a duck to water and, of course, he has many other outstanding players. Unfortunately, its not clear that Bob Peeters has the players to play the way he wants to play. Buyens is the pivot, but often his only option is to play the ball back to his centre-backs and we end up playing in a "U" without moving upfield. The players around Buyens, at full back and in midfield, aren't good enough on the ball when under pressure. Then with no long ball option available as an outlet, we are too easy to press with the result that we are caught in possession or pass without real intent. A big striker might make a major difference, as Tutt-Tutt explained, but if Bob Peeters wants to play his passing game we'll also need to find a player, or two, who is more comfortable in possession than a number of the current squad.
Passing football is what most people in football want to play or see, but it is much harder to do and win games than just deciding you are going to keep the ball on the deck.
I think we've, largely, been trying to play passing football since Powell took over. Our problem has been, when we have stuck more rigidly to it, we have struggled to transition from the periods of slower, ball retention type passing into the short bursts of high tempo one and two touch passing (accompanied by fluid off-the ball movement) that is required to take advantage of the small chinks that appear in an oppositions armour as you recycle the ball. Our forwards are often too static, but more importantly our midfielders are often too slow to recognise the crack of light and send the ball in its direction.
Its both a problem of the tempo which we try to play at (both CP and BBBB have tended to have us playing too slow imho) and a problem of personnel (we have long lacked a genuinely creative fulcrum, at least one with a quick brain and feet on the ball). We got progressively more direct under Powell, partly as he realised we weren't good enough to play out and out passing football in the Championship and partly because as the squad and budget dwindled it became clear Kermorgant's aerial presence was one of our few remaining weapons.
I think this is one area that Tucudean actually deserves some credit - his link play is actually fairly inventive and he appears to prefer attempting one and two touch flicks and lay-offs that keep the ball moving, preventing defences from settling. The trouble is not enough of them come off and he also needs to learn there is also a time a place for just keeping hold of possession, but I can at least credit him for some of his intentions. This is why people are often observing that stuff happens when he is on the pitch - it is because whenever he is involved he is looking to make something happen - he's not satisfied with just taking a touch and laying it 10 yards sideways.
Bob's slow tempo, safety first football might work better in Europe, but I think it is ill suited to up-and-at-em-pace Championship football where you are just giving teams time to close you down and expose limitations in your technique under pressure or to form a massed ranks defence which we, frankly, are not good enough to penetrate on a regular basis.
Guardiola's Barca and Bayern teams are a pipe dream for little old Charlton, but perhaps we should draw more inspiration from Swansea. A side which has worked its way up to the Premier League from lower, divisions while playing attacking passing football. They are nothing special by Premier League standards but are light years ahead of us - when I watch them play I see a fluidity and pace of movement from players and ball alike, that we just don't seem to have in our locker right now.
Some better players in a couple of key positions would help, but we also need to be more direct, by which I don't necessarily mean long balls, but a more purposeful attitude in possession. By all means pass it short but pass it faster, earlier and forward more often.
Passing Football is what everyone wants to see but I find fans in this country are too impatient... they want to see the goal peppered with shots, a goal a minute...
Passing Football is what everyone wants to see but I find fans in this country are too impatient... they want to see the goal peppered with shots, a goal a minute...
Some pressing would be nice too instead of sitting back and trying to soak up pressure. We're not good enough to do that. Not many teams are. Look at Blackburn's first goal on Saturday. That is what we should be doing.
Passing Football is what everyone wants to see but I find fans in this country are too impatient... they want to see the goal peppered with shots, a goal a minute...
Some pressing would be nice too instead of sitting back and trying to soak up pressure. We're not good enough to do that. Not many teams are. Look at Blackburn's first goal on Saturday. That is what we should be doing.
Gotta be careful as a Team can quickly exhaust themselves if it dont work... With Blackburn pressing like they were we should have got tighter at the back and got at them on the counter
but if Bob Peeters wants to play his passing game we'll also need to find a player, or two, who is more comfortable in possession than a number of the current squad.
Passing Football is what everyone wants to see but I find fans in this country are too impatient... they want to see the goal peppered with shots, a goal a minute...
But I think @Exiled_Addick had it spot on - fans wouldn't be frustrated if they were watching passing football if it were part of a more direct game plan. Passing for passing's sake is not particularly attractive and to be honest we probably don't have enough technically gifted players to pass the opposition to death ala Barca a couple of seasons ago. However we should surely have players who are capable of actually passing the ball and the game plan should revolve around them and instructing them to move the ball quickly, in the direction of the opposition goal and use their passing ability to find team mates.
If we don't have players who can pass the ball, and we aren't willing to go and find some, then we will probably struggle to stay in this division in the long term.
Comments
For a start, playing Solly on the right wing was odd. I understand that we want to see Gomez as much as possible, but I'd rather see Solly at RB and Gomez at LB. Fox wasn't our worst player yesterday but I think Gomez can do a better job than him.
We've been used to Bikey and Ben Haim winning pretty much everything in the air. Well, yesterday they won practically nothing. Rhodes and Gestede tormented us from the off and won every aerial ball, putting us under more pressure and indeed leading to the second goal. By contrast, the Blackburn centre-backs won everything, not giving Igor or Pigott a sniff. It wasn't just in the air either; it seemed Blackburn players came away with the ball after every tackle.
It's obvious how fragile Pope's confidence is. He and Cousins were both guilty for the first goal, as the ball shouldn't really have been played short but Cousins should still have dealt with it quicker. From then on it was inevitable that Rhodes would score. Shortly afterwards Pope dropped a cross under no pressure whatsoever and we conceded a corner. The second goal came from a long ball, Rhodes nipped in ahead of Ben Haim and poked it beyond Pope, who I think should have been stronger. 2-0 after 20 minutes, and the game was as good as over. It's worth mentioning that he did make a couple of fine saves after that, so it's clearly not shot-stopping that's the problem for him. But given the rave reviews from York fans about his aerial domination it's worrying how bad he's been in that regard for us.
We barely created anything. One decent cross from Solly in the first half which both Igor and Wilson might have done better with (though I'm not sure as it was at the far end) and a good move leading to a fluffed right-footed effort from Harriott was all we could muster. We played a little better in the second half but still barely troubled the keeper. Bikey and Vetokele headed off-target from corners, but that was it.
The most troubling thing was that whatever we tried to do was easily foiled. When we passed it out from the back Blackburn swarmed all over us and we ended up booting it long and losing it. When Pope did take goal kicks long our forwards were beaten to the ball every time, and our midfield was always second to the loose ball. Whilst we have been dealt a big blow by losing Jackson and Coquelin at the same time, the decline in our midfield from its early season pomp is shocking.
Bob has a lot of work to do.
I'm not sure if we can blame BP entirely over selection, as in all fairness he hasn't got a lot of players to choose from. We're a thin squad (as one lifer put it - apologies I can't remember who or which thread) "our squad is thin enough to make Kate Moss look chubby".
Sounds like all the hard work was done in advance for a bit of gen on the opposition - but it all got forgotten in the heat of battle. I appreciate that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" but to play into their hands when the squad all knew full well how they would square up is almost unforgivable. I don't blame BP for saying he didn't know why they did that - they were clearly "ignoring orders". I can imagine the half-time chat was probably less than comfortable - and that would be only reasonable, too.
Whilst I do get annoyed at some of the squad, I don't think getting on their back will do anyone any favours. It's clear Pope is feeling it - he needs more support from the rest of the team not us lot slagging him off. Fox has potential but seems to flap when he is under pressure. Aherne-Grant is the mutts nuts but is young and needs to develop - expecting him to be top drawer now is a big ask and I think he is stepping up well. Cousins and Harriottcan be great when they are played in the right position and have someone to partner with well.
Ultimately we lack depth and experience under pressure. So unless we have investment in the squad then we have to take the risk that when we are beset with injuries as we are now, that our results will suffer as accordingly. Add to the fact that if everyone was fully fit we still need a striker, then we are well and truly floating slowly down a certain creek without a paddle.
The transfer window is imminent - come on Roland - open up those purse strings and get some backup in for the lads.
Just to add to comments that we are relegation-bound - I don't think we are. But proof that getting goals in the net to give wins shows what Fulham have achieved in turning things around - and they are now one place in the table behind us. I think we will stay up - but it will be a roller coaster until the end of the season, that's for sure.
Position Team P W D L F A GD Pts
1 Bournemouth 22 12 6 4 50 25 25 42
12 Charlton 22 6 12 4 23 24 -1 30
Both teams have lost 4 games and Bournemouth have actually conceded 1 more goal than us. But whereas we've only scored 23 goals they've scored 50 (27 more than us) and our positions on wins and draws are exactly reversed – we've won 6 and drawn 12 they've won 12 and drawn 6.
So while we may have started to make more mistakes at the back recently (and it's worth debating why) – overall it's lack of goals that are the problem and (at least) another competent striker is needed to start to turn it round.
Pretty obvious I know – but I think it's useful to see the stats set out like that.
Chocolate Fingers on the pulse.
First defeat i have missed this season, sounds like the Bournemouth game, where we conceded early,
then some how got away with them missing chances or decent saves by the keeper.
Igor early Goal scoring form papered over the cracks.
At Brighton we were battered for large parts of the game but because of two quality
Goals by Igor we had a 2-2, otherwise another game similar to Yesterday.
Fulham 1st half, Rotherham 2nd half, so many games were we have been chasing shadows.
The Derby home game now looks like a false dawn.
If Bob Peeters remit was just to keep us in the championship this season, could this be a reason
why we are so negative at times, because he's worried about a big defeat similar to Atkins at Reading ?
If we were 12th after being in the bottom 6, It never seems as bad as being 12th after being in the top 6.
Try and keep the faith, i know i'm struggling. Let's chill out guys, there's always teams worse off?
We could be Blackpool fans!
Team selection could not explain this poor start, but it undoubtedly did not help. Playing a fantastic full back in right midfield might have been worth trying in Jackson’s absence, but it’s not worth persevering with. Also, Gudmundsson, who was our only glimmer of hope in the first half, is not going to offer much support to the full back behind him, and this exposed Fox. To be fair to BP he was decisive in correcting these problems. 30 minutes is very early for a tactical substitution, but it was needed. At the same time he swapped Gudmundsson and Harriott. and although Harriott might not be the strongest defensively, he did provide a bit more defensive solidity down the left side.
With the half-time sub of Pigott for Harriott, we were playing 4312, and for half an hour this worked well. We played some good football during this period, albeit without any real cutting edge.
What should we learn from this game?
Well, while Wiggins is out, Gomez and Solly is better than Gomez and Fox with Solly in mid-field, or Solly and Fox.
What is done with Gudmundsson needs careful thought. He’s our best technical player and our most creative one, and so he has to play. I don’t think it makes sense to try to change him into the defensively disciplined player he currently is not. That would seem to argue a free role just behind the striker(s). In many ways he resembles Ajdarevic - could be seen as a luxury, but at present he seems to be the only mid-fielder we have who is likely to be productive in opening up opposing defences.
The manager will know that, the staff will know that and the players know that. The problem seems to be BP getting the support from RD to bring in a quality CF, rather than a cheap option from the network. Tucudean is a decent CF, but lacks the pace and physical strength to play against Championship Centre Backs, he is not suited to English football. most of the network players we have seen so far are not suited to English football. we need a CF who is suited to playing in the Championship, otherwise the same problem will persist in the second half of the season.
I don't have any such experience, but even to an untrained eye it's clear that there is a fundamental problem with our game management which needs to be addressed. The data suggests that we are bottom of the Championship table for shots and chances created, but that we are faring quite well in terms of our conversion rate.
As you suggest, it would seem that what we need, therefore, is not a goal scorer per se, but an ability to get better possession in the top third, enabling us to get men forward in support and hence to create more chances, whoever they fall to.
Hence, the player you describe need not be a goal scorer and we shouldn't judge potential signings as such. Indeed, a top finisher who can't play the role you describe may not help very much.
If I were dreaming of candidates I might highlight Lukas Jutkiewicz of Burnley. He hasn't scored this season and, overall, doesn't have a great goal scoring record, but he might be ideal for us. While Jutkiewicz might be out of reach, if the club is in tune with your logic he's the type of playing we'll be looking at, not another Andy Delort type with lots of goals, but lacking the power to play the role you envisage.
What I will say, very worried we've already run out of puff before a very important part of the season with games coming thick and fast.
January cant come soon enough
Tutt Tutt is Alan Curbishley.
Despite the individual errors I do get frustrated with our game plan though. I admire Bob's ethos of playing the ball out of the back but we just don't have the personnel to play that way at the moment. We have far too many players who are uncomfortable on the ball under pressure and every time I have seen us play this season (only 4 times!) the opposition have pressed right up the field and we've made mistakes that led to goals. The problem is that there isn't an out ball. We don't have sufficient movement to provide options for players on the ball and we don't have the strength or runners in the channels to hit it long if no short pass is available. As a result, there is nothing stopping a well drilled opposition pushing as far up the pitch us possible when we have the ball becasue there is absolutely no risk of us either going long or through them.
With regards to fielding the youngsters, we have to be careful. Some of them are not up to Championship football and never will be. I feel Fox and Piggott are playing quite a few levels above their current ability and playing them is doing more harm to them than good. Gomez is fine, he is more than capable at this level as is Cousins. Nick Pope is full of potential. His shot stopping is immense as is his kicking game, but as soon as he has time to think about making a catch or coming for a cross he is like a frightened kitten. Every time he touched the ball he had 15000 fans on his back. I really do think he will be a great keeper but he has to work hard on mental side of his game which probably will mean loaning him out to a lower level team for a bit. Ability wise there is no problem.
Tucudean looks like a poor mans Dzeko to me and I reckon Bob has lost patience with him.
We've tried Moussa and Harriot playing up with or off Igor and it just isn't working.
However, since JJ was injured things have changed in my eyes. Bob elected, for whatever reason, to change the formation. Putting Solly in midfield has disrupted not only the defense but also the mid field. With Pope, Fox and Gomez back there I can see why TBH and Bikey are suddenly out of sorts. That is no discredit to those three but it is a heavy responsibility to put on three young players in an area of the field which, to me, is the most important for the backbone of any team. Also, moving Solly up to the middle has disrupted the midfield where I feel we had adequate coverage with the players we had in JBG, Cousins, Buyens, Harriott and Bulot. They are out of sorts now as well.
So, the result of all that, in my eyes, is that we have gone from being a team where it was obvious where the shortfall was (ie. support for Igor), to a team where we have so many shortfalls all over the pitch that's it's difficult to see where the problem lies. This is crucial as we approach the January window, as it's so important to have a clear picture of where we need reinforcements. Having said that, I recognise that Bob is an innovative young coach and all credit to him for wanting to try different things, but I think he needs to recognise that this change just isn't working and to revert back to how we were straight away. Otherwise I can see other teams taking us apart a bit.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it" as they say, and I would say we weren't broken, apart from the support for Igor bit, but now that has changed in my eyes.
Solly is our best left back when Wiggins injured.
Bulot has hardly featured recently - why?
Coquelin going was a blow but on paper we should still have a decent midfield with Cousins, Buyens, Gudmundsson and Bulot plus Wilson.
Simple fact is that Henderson, Bikey, Ben Haim and Jackson have built up an understanding and we are missing two of those four right now... Badly!
Two home games coming up versus Cardiff and Blackburn in the cup - all to play for - anyone can beat anyone in this division.
I've no idea who we should sign or who is good value in the transfer market, to fill the CF role. I would be guessing. Phil Chapple will have a list of players he's tracking. Afobe is doing well at MK Cons. It's probably time he stepped up to the Championship on loan, as a name to throw into the ring.
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20140804/afobe-joins-mk-dons-on-loan
Haven't finished it yet and I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but some of the material is interesting. The reason I mention it is that Guardiola, who comes across as completely obsessive, has very clear views about playing styles. He's a disciple of Johan Cruyff, as we know, and has Bayern's players practising the rondo, but he says that he hates Tiquitaca. "Tiquitaca is a load of shit", he rages. He wants the ball played out from the back, but not just for the sake of it. There has to be a purpose. There is no point recycling the ball in a "U". The ball needs to be moved quickly and lines broken so that the entire team advances.
That's not easy. Guardiola gets lucky and finds that Lahm takes to his new role as pivot like a duck to water and, of course, he has many other outstanding players. Unfortunately, its not clear that Bob Peeters has the players to play the way he wants to play. Buyens is the pivot, but often his only option is to play the ball back to his centre-backs and we end up playing in a "U" without moving upfield. The players around Buyens, at full back and in midfield, aren't good enough on the ball when under pressure. Then with no long ball option available as an outlet, we are too easy to press with the result that we are caught in possession or pass without real intent. A big striker might make a major difference, as Tutt-Tutt explained, but if Bob Peeters wants to play his passing game we'll also need to find a player, or two, who is more comfortable in possession than a number of the current squad.
I think we've, largely, been trying to play passing football since Powell took over. Our problem has been, when we have stuck more rigidly to it, we have struggled to transition from the periods of slower, ball retention type passing into the short bursts of high tempo one and two touch passing (accompanied by fluid off-the ball movement) that is required to take advantage of the small chinks that appear in an oppositions armour as you recycle the ball. Our forwards are often too static, but more importantly our midfielders are often too slow to recognise the crack of light and send the ball in its direction.
Its both a problem of the tempo which we try to play at (both CP and BBBB have tended to have us playing too slow imho) and a problem of personnel (we have long lacked a genuinely creative fulcrum, at least one with a quick brain and feet on the ball). We got progressively more direct under Powell, partly as he realised we weren't good enough to play out and out passing football in the Championship and partly because as the squad and budget dwindled it became clear Kermorgant's aerial presence was one of our few remaining weapons.
I think this is one area that Tucudean actually deserves some credit - his link play is actually fairly inventive and he appears to prefer attempting one and two touch flicks and lay-offs that keep the ball moving, preventing defences from settling. The trouble is not enough of them come off and he also needs to learn there is also a time a place for just keeping hold of possession, but I can at least credit him for some of his intentions. This is why people are often observing that stuff happens when he is on the pitch - it is because whenever he is involved he is looking to make something happen - he's not satisfied with just taking a touch and laying it 10 yards sideways.
Bob's slow tempo, safety first football might work better in Europe, but I think it is ill suited to up-and-at-em-pace Championship football where you are just giving teams time to close you down and expose limitations in your technique under pressure or to form a massed ranks defence which we, frankly, are not good enough to penetrate on a regular basis.
Guardiola's Barca and Bayern teams are a pipe dream for little old Charlton, but perhaps we should draw more inspiration from Swansea. A side which has worked its way up to the Premier League from lower, divisions while playing attacking passing football. They are nothing special by Premier League standards but are light years ahead of us - when I watch them play I see a fluidity and pace of movement from players and ball alike, that we just don't seem to have in our locker right now.
Some better players in a couple of key positions would help, but we also need to be more direct, by which I don't necessarily mean long balls, but a more purposeful attitude in possession. By all means pass it short but pass it faster, earlier and forward more often.
If we don't have players who can pass the ball, and we aren't willing to go and find some, then we will probably struggle to stay in this division in the long term.