Is there a club with a worse online booking experience then Charlton? Just looking now, not that you can easily buy seats at the moment, you still can't pick a seat online as with most clubs or events, the system seems to be painfully complex for both the user and those dealing with it at the other end.
Just another example of not fixing the roof in the Premier League and investing in the future, same with the pitch which Varney admitted was overlooked then.
More and more clubs have moved to smartcard ticketing for example, Brighton's system for example includes the ability to pay at kiosks around the stadium to reduce queuing times.
Is there a club with a worse online booking experience then Charlton? Just looking now, not that you can easily buy seats at the moment, you still can't pick a seat online as with most clubs or events, the system seems to be painfully complex for both the user and those dealing with it at the other end.
Just another example of not fixing the roof in the Premier League and investing in the future, same with the pitch which Varney admitted was overlooked then.
More and more clubs have moved to smartcard ticketing for example, Brighton's system for example includes the ability to pay at kiosks around the stadium to reduce queuing times.
Interested to hear your take on the online situation as described here Arthur, as you have a lot of experience at this sort of thing?
Is there a club with a worse online booking experience then Charlton? Just looking now, not that you can easily buy seats at the moment, you still can't pick a seat online as with most clubs or events, the system seems to be painfully complex for both the user and those dealing with it at the other end.
Just another example of not fixing the roof in the Premier League and investing in the future, same with the pitch which Varney admitted was overlooked then.
More and more clubs have moved to smartcard ticketing for example, Brighton's system for example includes the ability to pay at kiosks around the stadium to reduce queuing times.
The current system is essentially the pretty basic pre-2005 software, which has no connection to the live booking data. You can't choose your seat because the online system doesn't know if it's available.
The club did upgrade its ticketing in 2005 - in the PL - as part of which it offered Red Card holders the ability to buy off the live system (implementation of the online offer may have been slightly later). Due to security and data integrity concerns about allowing anyone access to the live system, the club continued to operate the old system in parallel for non Red Card holders. Essentially the club didn't want to allow people to set themselves up as Red Card holders, which would have been the effect of allowing anyone to buy on the live system.
From 2005 (ish) to 2013 the online system did allow you to choose your seat, although in the Premier League it was set to default to "best available" which caused some frustration as it would amend your choice (the intention was to avoid creating hard-to-sell isolated single seats). I think we switched this control off in League One.
From about 2010-11 work was underway on further improvements. This always included enhancements to the online system, including bringing non-member booking into the live system, but in the spring of 2013 the Red Card online system was turned off altogether and never reinstated - I assume because TJ//MS were unwilling to pay for the necessary work.
Generally the board was reluctant to invest in IT or infrastructure when the team was in the PL, so I think that is a fair criticism, and by 2008 there was no money, but it's not true to say it did nothing. What you have currently online is a version of the pre-2005 arrangements, not what we had subsequent to that.
I doubt if anyone thinks the current set-up is fit for purpose - it comes about from a combination of caution in the PL and the lack of available cash since.
BTW the pitch wasn't overlooked in the PL - the board rejected the spending (twice, I bellieve). Not quite the same thing.
Nevertheless, the same board did build the north stand in those years and overwhelmingly the money not spent on things like the above was going into the playing budget. With regular attendances of 25,000 plus, the business case for improving ticketing further than it was in 2005 must have been less clear than it looks with the benefit of hindsight.
@AirmanBrown - didn't you say about a year ago, that you had heard there were plans to upgrade the on line booking system? or have I got that totally wrong?
@AirmanBrown - didn't you say about a year ago, that you had heard there were plans to upgrade the on line booking system? or have I got that totally wrong?
Yes there were, as above. I assume they were put on hold because the previous regime wouldn't pay for it. However, the online system is (or at any rate should be) an integral feature of the overall ticketing software, so implementation now will depend on the plan for the system as a whole. I'd be very surprised if the club stuck with the current interface in the medium term, because as Rothko says it's very limited.
So maybe one way of targeting our fan base or potential ones for free, is to get our fans to deliver leaflets to their neighbours, call it something witty and memorable like knock up your neighbours, and hay presto 15,000 leaflets delivered..
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
So maybe one way of targeting our fan base or potential ones for free, is to get our fans to deliver leaflets to their neighbours, call it something witty and memorable like knock up your neighbours, and hay presto 15,000 leaflets delivered..
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
Sounds good but actually it would be incredibly inefficient because you'd have to get the leaflets to people in the first place and then for all sorts of reasons I'd guess most wouldn't do it. For example only about two thirds of the support is "local", a chunk is under 16, many live with another fan, not everyone would buy in to the concept, others would know it was not relevant to their neighbours.
You could certainly get some leaflets delivered by fans, but given you could get them delivered professionally and to a plan for about £15 per 000 or less, that's a lot of work to secure £225 worth of "free" labour.
Let's say, for argument's sake, the club wants to promote its £15 tickets. It could potentially deliver 100,000 leafiets in Bexley and Greenwich for £1,500. Assume the print cost is another £1,500 and the concept/artwork accounted for by existing salary costs. One £15 ticket yields £12.50 net of VAT, so even ignoring the potential to lead to longer term support and ancillary income it would have to sell 240 extra tickets because of the leaflet to break even. I think that's a reasonable punt, personally - it's a response rate of 0.24% - but the content is key.
In general, I don't think a leaflet is how you best utilise people's passion to spread the word. It's much more efficient to harness the energies of the motivated minority, but to do that you need a narrative and a structure. Pretty much what we did in the 90s, especially if you don't want to spend any money.
So maybe one way of targeting our fan base or potential ones for free, is to get our fans to deliver leaflets to their neighbours, call it something witty and memorable like knock up your neighbours, and hay presto 15,000 leaflets delivered..
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
Hmmm leaflets are a very inefficient use of resources, a scatter gun effect. As AB says content is key, but targeting is vital too and that's quite difficult to refine with a leaflet drop.
Derivations of "Recommend a friend" are far more cost effective and likely to succeed.
So maybe one way of targeting our fan base or potential ones for free, is to get our fans to deliver leaflets to their neighbours, call it something witty and memorable like knock up your neighbours, and hay presto 15,000 leaflets delivered..
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
Sounds good but actually it would be incredibly inefficient because you'd have to get the leaflets to people in the first place and then for all sorts of reasons I'd guess most wouldn't do it. For example only about two thirds of the support is "local", a chunk is under 16, many live with another fan, not everyone would buy in to the concept, others would know it was not relevant to their neighbours.
You could certainly get some leaflets delivered by fans, but given you could get them delivered professionally and to a plan for about £15 per 000 or less, that's a lot of work to secure £225 worth of "free" labour.
Let's say, for argument's sake, the club wants to promote its £15 tickets. It could potentially deliver 100,000 leafiets in Bexley and Greenwich for £1,500. Assume the print cost is another £1,500 and the concept/artwork accounted for by existing salary costs. One £15 ticket yields £12.50 net of VAT, so even ignoring the potential to lead to longer term support and ancillary income it would have to sell 240 extra tickets because of the leaflet to break even. I think that's a reasonable punt, personally - it's a response rate of 0.24% - but the content is key.
In general, I don't think a leaflet is how you best utilise people's passion to spread the word. It's much more efficient to harness the energies of the motivated minority, but to do that you need a narrative and a structure. Pretty much what we did in the 90s, especially if you don't want to spend any money.
As an ex print designer, as much as I would like to support the leaflet idea, random drops in Bexley and Greenwich will prove very wasteful. I did this for a client locally 5 years ago and got a 3% take up, only printed 1,000, but chose selected houses. Did the same thing last year with the same leaflet, this time, with a sample 500 no take up. Okay, perhaps the market was saturated with these, but as I supervised the drop ( did some myself) I think people see it as junk mail. As I have previously mentioned, one idea would be to target ex-season ticket holders, and red card, that have lapsed, over the past few years. You need to do a bespoke email, with letter follow up. As I previously mentioned there is not a magic wand approach, but niche marketing like this will be less random and wasteful. What you need to do is get people 'converted' to being season ticket holders again, wether they be casual buyers, or like so many of my friends not impressed with years of relative poor football, and a previous board that did not want to engage with supporters.
I've always wondered why there isn't a push to sell match tickets in Greenwich to more tourists or students.
If I am out on a city break and I saw a stall or stand with a clear outline of affordable football, where I could get a 5 minute train journey, from a station 5 minutes away and the ground was 5 minutes away from the station at the other aide, I would sign up straight away.
Charlton are not a tourist destination in London like an Arsenal for example. But the numbers which swarm through Greenwich on a friday and saturday who are probably looking for ideas of what to do on a weekend must be massive.
Certainly noticed quite alot of foreign football fans at the valley this season.
So maybe one way of targeting our fan base or potential ones for free, is to get our fans to deliver leaflets to their neighbours, call it something witty and memorable like knock up your neighbours, and hay presto 15,000 leaflets delivered..
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
Sounds good but actually it would be incredibly inefficient because you'd have to get the leaflets to people in the first place and then for all sorts of reasons I'd guess most wouldn't do it. For example only about two thirds of the support is "local", a chunk is under 16, many live with another fan, not everyone would buy in to the concept, others would know it was not relevant to their neighbours.
You could certainly get some leaflets delivered by fans, but given you could get them delivered professionally and to a plan for about £15 per 000 or less, that's a lot of work to secure £225 worth of "free" labour.
Let's say, for argument's sake, the club wants to promote its £15 tickets. It could potentially deliver 100,000 leafiets in Bexley and Greenwich for £1,500. Assume the print cost is another £1,500 and the concept/artwork accounted for by existing salary costs. One £15 ticket yields £12.50 net of VAT, so even ignoring the potential to lead to longer term support and ancillary income it would have to sell 240 extra tickets because of the leaflet to break even. I think that's a reasonable punt, personally - it's a response rate of 0.24% - but the content is key.
In general, I don't think a leaflet is how you best utilise people's passion to spread the word. It's much more efficient to harness the energies of the motivated minority, but to do that you need a narrative and a structure. Pretty much what we did in the 90s, especially if you don't want to spend any money.
As an ex print designer, as much as I would like to support the leaflet idea, random drops in Bexley and Greenwich will prove very wasteful. I did this for a client locally 5 years ago and got a 3% take up, only printed 1,000, but chose selected houses. Did the same thing last year with the same leaflet, this time, with a sample 500 no take up. Okay, perhaps the market was saturated with these, but as I supervised the drop ( did some myself) I think people see it as junk mail. As I have previously mentioned, one idea would be to target ex-season ticket holders, and red card, that have lapsed, over the past few years. You need to do a bespoke email, with letter follow up. As I previously mentioned there is not a magic wand approach, but niche marketing like this will be less random and wasteful. What you need to do is get people 'converted' to being season ticket holders again, wether they be casual buyers, or like so many of my friends not impressed with years of relative poor football, and a previous board that did not want to engage with supporters.
Charlton is a niche product but you are talking about different target audiences and objectives. Leaflets are a clumsy and obviously inefficient way of reaching lapsed season-ticket holders - however, they are a potential way of reaching some people outside the current cohort of supporters in areas where people are more likely to attend. It's a simple cost-benefit test. I'm not a huge fan of flyers, but you need to find ways to target good areas. Posters is another, but more expensive. The reach of local papers is dwindling. Broadcast media is incredibly wasteful in Greater London because it covers mostly hopeless areas. Ditto London-wide free papers.
We did a lot of Valley Express promotion in Kent over the years, using the KM including their radio stations. The number of non-Charlton fans I meet on council business in East Kent who have been to Charlton on Valley Express and the general awareness of the coach service locally is extraordinary. So it can work.
Interesting Airman, As I keep banging on........ I know quite a few ex-season ticket holders ( some on here) who have not taken up the season ticket this year. And although it may cost the club to get those fan's back, you still have your fixed costs, and with an extra 2,000 ST's, although you may have to have extra staff, you hopefully have the opportunity with sales of food etc to offset those. During the summer I worked for an organisation that worked on lapsed members. They buy into the idea, but because of various factors, cost, and enjoyment being a primary motive, you have to induce people to return. I am not convinced that KM lowering the ticket price to ex-season ticket holders is fair to existing holders, or devalues the ticket. Personally I think that is neither here or there. As I say, this would be a specific campaign to people who are our customers, or have been recent customers. Perhaps cost is keeping them away, or at least giving them the excuse. I regulary get emails from organisations that I used to use, in fact today I got two offering me in effect beetween 25-50 per cent off as a one off, and a loyalty card, that gives me a discount each time I go. I am certainly interested, and will go in the next week or so. An empty seat earns no revenue, and in fact at a football ground it makes for a more sterile atmosphere. Frankly I would rather the rows of empty seats next to me were full than worrying about wether somebody got a better deal than me, especially if they are likely to return. The trouble is I am not sure that my theory is held by KM.
No, I think Airman knows far more than I do about the specifics of this subject. However, I have spoken to the club about the program, and the buddy season ticket offer was something I did propose two seasons ago. Not because I think I know all the answers? I am more than happy to give my thoughts as Kap10 mentions. In fact I am working on idea with UoG at present, details of which will be announced at a later date. As earlier in this post mentions other people, including Rick have, and I am sure would be prepared to contribute towards this discussion. Let's see if the offer is taken up?.
We can offer discounts but we saw during the summer that hasn't resulted in a big upturn in numbers
We can leaflet or tweet or "bring a Pal to Charlton" but what is still missing are two key elements
The story we are selling. What's changed? What is better? Why should people bother to return? That doesn't cost, that is about the club thinking about the narrative/journey or whatever jargon we want to use but essentially it is "This is why you should come to a game at Charlton again/for the first time".
The other thing that seems to be missing is the resources. That's not just money although that is needed. You can do it cheaply, you can use your 1000s of hard core "customers" to sell for you, you can use social media but you still have some costs.
Comments
Just another example of not fixing the roof in the Premier League and investing in the future, same with the pitch which Varney admitted was overlooked then.
More and more clubs have moved to smartcard ticketing for example, Brighton's system for example includes the ability to pay at kiosks around the stadium to reduce queuing times.
The club did upgrade its ticketing in 2005 - in the PL - as part of which it offered Red Card holders the ability to buy off the live system (implementation of the online offer may have been slightly later). Due to security and data integrity concerns about allowing anyone access to the live system, the club continued to operate the old system in parallel for non Red Card holders. Essentially the club didn't want to allow people to set themselves up as Red Card holders, which would have been the effect of allowing anyone to buy on the live system.
From 2005 (ish) to 2013 the online system did allow you to choose your seat, although in the Premier League it was set to default to "best available" which caused some frustration as it would amend your choice (the intention was to avoid creating hard-to-sell isolated single seats). I think we switched this control off in League One.
From about 2010-11 work was underway on further improvements. This always included enhancements to the online system, including bringing non-member booking into the live system, but in the spring of 2013 the Red Card online system was turned off altogether and never reinstated - I assume because TJ//MS were unwilling to pay for the necessary work.
Generally the board was reluctant to invest in IT or infrastructure when the team was in the PL, so I think that is a fair criticism, and by 2008 there was no money, but it's not true to say it did nothing. What you have currently online is a version of the pre-2005 arrangements, not what we had subsequent to that.
I doubt if anyone thinks the current set-up is fit for purpose - it comes about from a combination of caution in the PL and the lack of available cash since.
BTW the pitch wasn't overlooked in the PL - the board rejected the spending (twice, I bellieve). Not quite the same thing.
Nevertheless, the same board did build the north stand in those years and overwhelmingly the money not spent on things like the above was going into the playing budget. With regular attendances of 25,000 plus, the business case for improving ticketing further than it was in 2005 must have been less clear than it looks with the benefit of hindsight.
as for misunderstandings there is only one thing more likely to drive you mad than being on Charlton life, and that is 'not being on it'.
and before.
and after.
;-)
Just be nice to see a system that is at least line with the one Orient offer for example, or not really on books of stubs for season tickets
You could certainly get some leaflets delivered by fans, but given you could get them delivered professionally and to a plan for about £15 per 000 or less, that's a lot of work to secure £225 worth of "free" labour.
Let's say, for argument's sake, the club wants to promote its £15 tickets. It could potentially deliver 100,000 leafiets in Bexley and Greenwich for £1,500. Assume the print cost is another £1,500 and the concept/artwork accounted for by existing salary costs. One £15 ticket yields £12.50 net of VAT, so even ignoring the potential to lead to longer term support and ancillary income it would have to sell 240 extra tickets because of the leaflet to break even. I think that's a reasonable punt, personally - it's a response rate of 0.24% - but the content is key.
In general, I don't think a leaflet is how you best utilise people's passion to spread the word. It's much more efficient to harness the energies of the motivated minority, but to do that you need a narrative and a structure. Pretty much what we did in the 90s, especially if you don't want to spend any money.
Derivations of "Recommend a friend" are far more cost effective and likely to succeed.
Charlton Ticket News @CAFCTickets 49m49 minutes ago
Good morning Addicks fans. Steve here until 5pm. #cafc
Okay, perhaps the market was saturated with these, but as I supervised the drop ( did some myself) I think people see it as junk mail.
As I have previously mentioned, one idea would be to target ex-season ticket holders, and red card, that have lapsed, over the past few years.
You need to do a bespoke email, with letter follow up. As I previously mentioned there is not a magic wand approach, but niche marketing like this will be less random and wasteful. What you need to do is get people 'converted' to being season ticket holders again, wether they be casual buyers, or like so many of my friends not impressed with years of relative poor football, and a previous board that did not want to engage with supporters.
If I am out on a city break and I saw a stall or stand with a clear outline of affordable football, where I could get a 5 minute train journey, from a station 5 minutes away and the ground was 5 minutes away from the station at the other aide, I would sign up straight away.
Charlton are not a tourist destination in London like an Arsenal for example. But the numbers which swarm through Greenwich on a friday and saturday who are probably looking for ideas of what to do on a weekend must be massive.
Certainly noticed quite alot of foreign football fans at the valley this season.
We did a lot of Valley Express promotion in Kent over the years, using the KM including their radio stations. The number of non-Charlton fans I meet on council business in East Kent who have been to Charlton on Valley Express and the general awareness of the coach service locally is extraordinary. So it can work.
As I keep banging on........ I know quite a few ex-season ticket holders ( some on here) who have not taken up the season ticket this year. And although it may cost the club to get those fan's back, you still have your fixed costs, and with an extra 2,000 ST's, although you may have to have extra staff, you hopefully have the opportunity with sales of food etc to offset those. During the summer I worked for an organisation that worked on lapsed members.
They buy into the idea, but because of various factors, cost, and enjoyment being a primary motive, you have to induce people to return. I am not convinced that KM lowering the ticket price to ex-season ticket holders is fair to existing holders, or devalues the ticket. Personally I think that is neither here or there. As I say, this would be a specific campaign to people who are our customers, or have been recent customers. Perhaps cost is keeping them away, or at least giving them the excuse. I regulary get emails from organisations that I used to use, in fact today I got two offering me in effect beetween 25-50 per cent off as a one off, and a loyalty card, that gives me a discount each time I go.
I am certainly interested, and will go in the next week or so.
An empty seat earns no revenue, and in fact at a football ground it makes for a more sterile atmosphere.
Frankly I would rather the rows of empty seats next to me were full than worrying about wether somebody got a better deal than me, especially if they are likely to return. The trouble is I am not sure that my theory is held by KM.
However, I have spoken to the club about the program, and the buddy season ticket offer was something I did propose two seasons ago. Not because I think I know all the answers? I am more than happy to give my thoughts as Kap10 mentions. In fact I am working on idea with UoG at present, details of which will be announced at a later date.
As earlier in this post mentions other people, including Rick have, and I am sure would be prepared to contribute towards this discussion. Let's see if the offer is taken up?.
We can leaflet or tweet or "bring a Pal to Charlton" but what is still missing are two key elements
The story we are selling. What's changed? What is better? Why should people bother to return? That doesn't cost, that is about the club thinking about the narrative/journey or whatever jargon we want to use but essentially it is "This is why you should come to a game at Charlton again/for the first time".
The other thing that seems to be missing is the resources. That's not just money although that is needed. You can do it cheaply, you can use your 1000s of hard core "customers" to sell for you, you can use social media but you still have some costs.