I have been intrigue by this thread and its made me look up various site for further information. This link might be useful as to the populations of Europeon countries (not just the EU) and their growth.
Nice one With the web and some effort it is reasonably simple to gather some facts about Europe and the Euro. 1) the euro economy is really about Germany, France, Italy and Spain 65-70% when I researched a while back. 2) Portugal, Ireland and Greece are tiny but no one wants them to fall out 3) if one is really interested there are publications and lunchtime seminars with big hitters. What I'm saying just as @AFKABartram stated is that Fellow CAFC fans can exchange views and links to share opinions and facts...to me this is the best antidote to lying scaremongering politicians and elements of the media.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
Having just gone through the Scottish independence vote I am minded to think that we should entrust our parliament to make the right decisions! I had a conversation with a pro referendum lobbyist and the labour minister for Europe a couple of years back and after listening to the lobbyist becoming very excited about the possibility of a vote I stated my view which hasn't changed: If Labour win outright or form a coalition with the Liberals why would they call for a referendum. It's a distraction and is simply a clumsy device by Cameron which he thought would close out UKIP... Instead it has fed their agenda. Leaving the EU would be disastrous and politicians who talk of it are being childish and isolationist. We should be embracing human rights not threatening to leave a court which we established. Reforming the EU is important and I believe that the centre left may find allies across Europe particularly if there is an agenda on jobs, global corporations and freeing up trade and restrictive practices. And I expect the Germans would welcome a hand in trying to improve economic and political prospects so that we all can continue to export our political philosophy to the parts of Europe not yet touched by the EU. Rising living standards in new joiners and opening up new markets is a win win which is far more positive than anything I hear from UKIP. Our country and especially our capital is based upon generation upon generation of political and economic immigration and that's why it's the best City in the world!
If views are intellectually legitimate why rail against them rather than robustly putting forward a counter-argument? Don't feel the need to duck out. What I've been on about is do us all the favour of putting forward reasoned arguments and win over the undecided, because if UKIP does force a referendum, the "EU Better Together" campaign will not win by belittling its opponents. Even Cameron is waking up to that. Have a think about it and bring your views on here whilst giving the insults a swerve?
Incidentally, as you don't see it, saying this thread is a UKIP love-in insults about half the posters including Prague and others who argue for the EU!
I will take AFKA's sound advice and leave this now.
For Christ sake, stop trying to persuade IAgree not to duck out of the discussion:-)
He's not really added to it to be fair, other than calling anyone who mentions anything to with immigration a racist.
I think about 3/4 people on this thread have committed to voting for UKIP, the rest are raising legitimate questions and concerns and are generally being given solid opinions from the 'why you souldn't vote UKIP' posters.
Out of interest Prague/Algarve; if the UK were to leave the EU, would it change your ability to stay and work in your respective Countries?
I really don't know mate. I can only speak from the point of view of the Algarve, which is a very different place to the rest of Portugal. There are a lot of UK ex-pats here both retired, working and running businesses - generally contributing a good deal of money to the economy - and I don't think most of locals would want to lose that. However the northern Portuguese may have a different attitude and as they are in a huge majority it might be seen as a vote winner to kick out the Brits - in much the same way as Spanish politicians like to rattle their sabres over Gib every now and then to win votes from people on the other side of the country who are not affected in any way shape or form by what goes on around the rock; in the meantime thousands of their countrymen who work in Gib and have to cross the border each day have their lives turned upside down. The influence of nationalism on people who are actually totally unaffected by the situation - sound familiar? :-)
I have been intrigue by this thread and its made me look up various site for further information. This link might be useful as to the populations of Europeon countries (not just the EU) and their growth.
Nice one With the web and some effort it is reasonably simple to gather some facts about Europe and the Euro. 1) the euro economy is really about Germany, France, Italy and Spain 65-70% when I researched a while back. 2) Portugal, Ireland and Greece are tiny but no one wants them to fall out 3) if one is really interested there are publications and lunchtime seminars with big hitters. What I'm saying just as @AFKABartram stated is that Fellow CAFC fans can exchange views and links to share opinions and facts...to me this is the best antidote to lying scaremongering politicians and elements of the media.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
Having just gone through the Scottish independence vote I am minded to think that we should entrust our parliament to make the right decisions! I had a conversation with a pro referendum lobbyist and the labour minister for Europe a couple of years back and after listening to the lobbyist becoming very excited about the possibility of a vote I stated my view which hasn't changed: If Labour win outright or form a coalition with the Liberals why would they call for a referendum. It's a distraction and is simply a clumsy device by Cameron which he thought would close out UKIP... Instead it has fed their agenda. Leaving the EU would be disastrous and politicians who talk of it are being childish and isolationist. We should be embracing human rights not threatening to leave a court which we established. Reforming the EU is important and I believe that the centre left may find allies across Europe particularly if there is an agenda on jobs, global corporations and freeing up trade and restrictive practices. And I expect the Germans would welcome a hand in trying to improve economic and political prospects so that we all can continue to export our political philosophy to the parts of Europe not yet touched by the EU. Rising living standards in new joiners and opening up new markets is a win win which is far more positive than anything I hear from UKIP. Our country and especially our capital is based upon generation upon generation of political and economic immigration and that's why it's the best City in the world!
From what I can tell the Scottish referendum has engaged many non voters and the disillusioned back into the political process. That can only be a good thing. It's only effected Labour negatively who have now seen the SNP take a chunk out of their Scottish vote. Trusting our parliament has done us no good and has caused many to be disillusioned with the political process. That is reflected in voting turn outs for the European Elections and recent by-elections. Many feel ignored, left behind and without a voice. UKIP are currently the only party offering that voice.
With regards to the EU, I don't think the EU can be reformed to the extent we need it to be. The free movement of people is a cornerstone of the EU and as far as I can tell is non negotiable. I believe we need to have stricter border controls, how can we plan for the future if we don't? It's like having your wedding day and saying anyone can come. How can you budget for that, how can you plan for things like housing and school needs? Add to that the fact that we now discriminate against people from outside of the EU from emigrating to this country. People from countries such as Austrlia, New Zealand and Canada. Countries who have stood by us in the past and with whom we have much in common with.
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
Understandable fear, but actually the Scots made a pretty good fist of it and I really don't see why the pro EU side needs to be afraid of engaging. It won't be a slanging match if people rise above that and eventually they will as happened in Scotland. There was of course a minority - apparently mainly hard core nationalists - that never gave up on threats and slagging off. I have relatives who told of NO posters being torn down in the night and so on. but overall the debate up there was a good one if a bit tiresome by the end. But in my view it is one we need to have on Europe otherwise it will never go away. (more buts there than a Beyonce tribute audition).
When it does happen I wonder what "rabbit from a hat" the two main parties will pull in the form of pledges if it looks like being close. You have the SNP ironically wanting to stay in as well. I doubt that in the end there would be a vote for the unknown but that's democracy for you.
@charlton_hero I agree that the Scottish referendum had mass participation and that the process educated those north and south of the border. The result was predicted and narrow...and the SNP and tories have shown their true colours shortly after but thats on another thread. The latest poll showing how typical voters miss state the EU and overseas aid budget together with the percentage of Muslims etc tells me that the Mail and Farrage propaganda has had a disproportionate effect on people's perception of reality. Before supporting a referendum which might well be cathartic I would want more time for a centre left government to engage with Europe and more information about voting intentions and key issues - in short I wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight! I would also want a longer period of more mature adult discussions and political engagement. Some commentators and posters on here believe that the UK political parties are incapable of reform. My take is that the conservatives are in desperate trouble and even last night are announcing "game changing" immigration ideas (no detail) as a response to a forthcoming bye election. UKIP are gaining 1% per month and the tories are dropping. I would therefore reserve judgement on a referendum until we have a clearer idea of the shape of Westminster after the next election. Like Salmond, Farage won't go away. As I have posted before his challenge is to the centre left to communicate positive proposals for the working people and that means jobs, NHS and cutting energy costs / improving typical take home pay. Six years since 2008 and I read today that take home disposable income is the same as 2008. In that time we've had six years of a mild inflation which hides rampant food and energy inflation. What I mean i believe the root cause is a complete failure to raise living standards so I wouldn't choose to pander to an ultra right wing agenda to solve the issue. As before, I might be in a minority but I embrace immigration as I believe it enriches our life experiences.
If views are intellectually legitimate why rail against them rather than robustly putting forward a counter-argument? Don't feel the need to duck out. What I've been on about is do us all the favour of putting forward reasoned arguments and win over the undecided, because if UKIP does force a referendum, the "EU Better Together" campaign will not win by belittling its opponents. Even Cameron is waking up to that. Have a think about it and bring your views on here whilst giving the insults a swerve?
Incidentally, as you don't see it, saying this thread is a UKIP love-in insults about half the posters including Prague and others who argue for the EU!
I will take AFKA's sound advice and leave this now.
For Christ sake, stop trying to persuade IAgree not to duck out of the discussion:-)
He's not really added to it to be fair, other than calling anyone who mentions anything to with immigration a racist.
I think about 3/4 people on this thread have committed to voting for UKIP, the rest are raising legitimate questions and concerns and are generally being given solid opinions from the 'why you souldn't vote UKIP' posters.
And I for one am finding it a fascinating debate.
Out of interest Prague/Algarve; if the UK were to leave the EU, would it change your ability to stay and work in your respective Countries?
In my case no change, but mainly because I'm married to a Czech citizen. I also now qualify for Czech citizenship anyway. Up to now there's been no advantage, other than the national vote, but if we were leaving the EU I would definitely do it in order to remain an EU citizen. In fact I could have dual citizenship. However what I contemplate doing is selling up in the UK and moving it all to Germany and get citizenship there. But none of that will stop me being an Addick, unless of course the brave and intelligent officers of the Border Force have other ideas.
Bournemouth Addick Member Can't we go back to talking about Neil Sodding Hamilton and whether UKIPers are happy to have a bloke like him involved at a senior level? I had at least a chance of understanding that... :-)
IAgree said, "UKIPS main policies are withdrawal from the EU and pulling up the drawbridge."
It's a pity IAgree, that you couldn't put some more facts, to your viewpoint and not shall we say untruths. UKIP patently will not be "pulling up the drawbridge" and it is precisely those sorts of untruth, that will encourage even more people to vote UKIP. That sort of talk is akin to Gordon Brown calling the lady from Rochdale a bigot and imo, that finally "did for him".
As I've said before. I very much doubt I'd vote for UKIP. However, if I was wavering you'd be pushing me towards them.
Office for National Statistics says migrants from Bulgaria and Romania topped 150,000 in the second quarter of this year, up by 13,000, as overall EU migration jumps by 187,000 in just three months.
And two million ex pat British people live in the EU!
Yes but not 187,000 of them have left this country in the last 3 months.
Your point being??
What is wrong with people from the EU living in Britain?
Nothing at all ... provided they work and are not living off UK state benefits to which they have not contributed and never will contribute .. I would LOVE to spend a few months living off local state benefits by the Black Sea in Bulgaria or Romania .. would either of those countries support me in my wishes, even temporarily? .. would they F%$*&
Totall agree but benifits tourism really is largely a myth. Not to mention the two million UK ex pats receiving access to benifits and healthcare across the EY
The UK EU expats who are not working whilst they are abroad and paying local taxes and deductions, in the majority will receive any benefits and healthcare on a reciprocal basis as they will have paid UK dues for many years. Most will be pensioners drawing UK state pensions. I cannot believe that hundreds of thousands of UK citizens across the EU are living off locally available dole money. You may well believe this to be the case.
As for 'benefits tourism' in the UK, I can quote no figures and neither I suspect can you .. However, a contact of mine who works for the DWP tells me that in her area alone, scores of EU citizens (that is non UK citizens) apply for state benefits every week at the various job centres ... I suspect that many get some kind of assistance from the government, especially those who have children with them. This is anecdotal information, but I believe what she says. As I have already stated, fair enough IF the same courtesy were to be extended to UK subjects in the less developed EU states .. you and I know (or at least I do) that this is just not the case. Did you never see the STATE SPONSORED Czech Republic TV ads encouraging Roma people to come to England where they could get benefits and stop being a burden on the Czech exchequer? Admittedly this was a few years back, but I suspect the theory and philosophy still exists in many of the new EU member states .. 'take our poor and huddled masses you British mugs .. because we do not want them'
The highlighted phrases are key here, these are just what you think Lincs, or in the case of your friend's story applying is very different to receiving, I can apply for benefits anywhere in the world, doesn't mean I will get them.
As others have stated, benefits really don't add up to much, however many scroungers with eighteen kids and forty seven bedroom mansions the Daily Mail drag up as an example to prove that the entire country is taking the piss out of the hard working tax payer. They never have billionaire tax avoiders like Philip Green on their front page, even though he costs more in a week than the bloke in their stories costs in a year... Neither party are breaking any laws.
I know a few pensioners here in Portugal who should be paying taxes on their income over here, but remain domiciled in the UK to save money.
For those that retire here and do declare their presence, they receive the same state health care benefits as the Portuguese thanks to reciprocal arrangements within the EU.
Is this the "advert" you are talking about? If so there's no mention of benefits, just one reference to funding education.
I suspect, --- that word again AA, as with my 'suspicions' about benefit tourism, I have no proof, largely because the government are loath to release figures about foreigners receiving benefits, if indeed such statistics exist ---, I suspect that you have lived in Portugal for some considerable time and have no real idea as to what is going on in England, the country where I live. Your finger is no longer on the pulse of English life. Perhaps you have an image of the country you have left behind, a land plenty for all, of milk and honey, of thatched cottages, puppy dogs and tea cosies not to mention benefits and cheap housing for all who live and want to come and live here.
Amongst other things, the crash of 2007/8, the profligate if well intentioned spending of the last Labour government and the inability of the Tories/Liberal Democrats to either adequately penalise and control the machinations of the 'financial sector of the economy', a k a bankers, or to manage what is probably already a runaway train economy, have led to serious discontent amongst many British people as their living standards fall, prices rise and salaries stagnate. This like it or not, is a fact. Many see a bleak and getting bleaker future for either themselves or their children. England is a different country from the one you have left behind. Whether 'we' like it or not, that is the situation.
As with all political situations that are perceived as broken and in need of serious change, some will look to solutions from the left bank of politics and some from the right. UKIP is neither a Nazi nor a Leninist/Stalinist party, it is a party attempting to express and to solve in some measure the fears and expectations of a large number of middle and working class Britons of all political persuasions, not in any way that ridiculous and hackneyed figure of supposed disrepute, the 'Daily Mail Reader'. Being of the middle, that is the appeal of UKIP. The British tend to shy away from anything too extreme, especially politicians.
I repeat the sentiment that I share with many others , the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax. However when working, they are all contributing to the good old GNP and in many cases are doing jobs that the British are too lazy, stupid or proud to do. That is another subject and another bone to chew on some time
What I am saying is quite simple. Benefits and housing of any kind should not be payable to people who come here from anywhere in the world looking for a hand-out. Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me. I don't care if the cost of 'benefits tourism' to the taxpayer is to paraphrase your words 'minimal' .. minimal or maximal is needs stopping, Incidentally AA do you still pay UK taxes? .. You can take the 'fifth' on that one if you like.
As to UK subjects not paying their taxes, and the horrible Monaco dwelling lump that is P Green telling us all that we need to pull out our fingers and start paying our dues, it's cliché time, 1000 wrongs do not a right make, we are stuck with enough UK born and bred 'scroungers' and tax avoiders. We certainly do not want to add to the numbers any time soon
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
It was a flipant commet but I do feel that there is a great deal of contempt for 'normal' people and there views. If people are too uninformed to participate in a referendum perhaps they should also be barred from other elections. We could have exams to qualify for the vote or maybe IQ tests. The fear that offering people a choice because they might vote the wrong way leads down some pretty ugly paths.
When the SNP took office in Scotland, they quite rightly pressed for a referendum on whether Scorland becomes independent or stays within the Union. That's fair, because the Scottish people voted the SNP into office, then fairly, honestly and robustly debated the issues around the referendum on Scotland's membership of the Union.
The same should happen in the UK. When UKIP take office as the biggest, best-supported party in the country, with the most seats, they can decide to have a straight in/out referendum and let the country decide.
When the SNP took office in Scotland, they quite rightly pressed for a referendum on whether Scorland becomes independent or stays within the Union. That's fair, because the Scottish people voted the SNP into office, then fairly, honestly and robustly debated the issues around the referendum on Scotland's membership of the Union.
The same should happen in the UK. When UKIP take office as the biggest, best-supported party in the country, with the most seats, they can decide to have a straight in/out referendum and let the country decide.
Can't see it happening somehow.
What if the Tories get in with their promised straight In/Out referendum after negotiations with the EU don't go the way they want?
Get a feeling that it's just some clout being used by them just to renegotiate some better terms for the UK.
Would it be a fair summary to say that most people are concerned about immigration or at least the level of it, irrespective of political allegiances or if you are pro or anti the EU.
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
It was a flipant commet but I do feel that there is a great deal of contempt for 'normal' people and there views. If people are too uninformed to participate in a referendum perhaps they should also be barred from other elections. We could have exams to qualify for the vote or maybe IQ tests. The fear that offering people a choice because they might vote the wrong way leads down some pretty ugly paths.
Agree with this.
The comments about UKIP and it's supporters doesn't add anything to the debate.
After their successes at the European Elections, winning in Clacton, significant swing to them in Lancashire and the likely event that Reckless will be re-elected, the popular vote is certainly theirs at the moment.
Just calling people nobheads and racists, isn't a constructive arguement to prevent the migration of votes to them from the other parties. They know that they're hemorrhaging votes, but presently they seem to be doing little to stop it.
Plenty of reasoned and well thought out response on this thread so far - perhaps we should form our own cross divide party?
Interesting article. Looks like UKIP will get a lot less seats than their pollings suggest (due to First Past the Post) but looks like it will be at least 5... (For those that are interested, SkyBet are now at 1.73 for 5 or more seats, couldn't be happier with my decision now)
Pro or anti EU, I think there are lots of similarities between the Scottish referendum which opened up a wide ranging healthy debate on the pros and cons of independence and the EU issue. I think UKIP are in may ways a catalyst to getting everyone engaged just like Salmond was. I think everyone has seen a whole range of different views on this thread that we can agree with, disagree with or ignore, but all are validly held, and it all helps us to challenge our own views and take other views on board.
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
It was a flipant commet but I do feel that there is a great deal of contempt for 'normal' people and there views. If people are too uninformed to participate in a referendum perhaps they should also be barred from other elections. We could have exams to qualify for the vote or maybe IQ tests. The fear that offering people a choice because they might vote the wrong way leads down some pretty ugly paths.
Yeah I don't think that's an unfair comment. I just think that the information we currently receive is not enough for the normal man to make a balanced informed opinion. You could also go the opposite way of your comment and say well why don't we have a referendum on every decision this country makes or whether we should be part of any international organisation?
In answer to your post Lincs, I see the news, I keep up with what's going on through forums such as this, I visit the UK every year. I don't give any credit to sensationalist headlines or what people suspect is going on. The Britain you describe is actually the kind of image that UKIP types like to use as a benchmark of what has been lost by all these foreigners arriving, I was never under the illusion that it was ever like that, but as you bring it up, perhaps you were?
I don't pay UK tax because I am not allowed to, I don't live there. I wish I could, I would be far better off than I am paying tax in Portugal.
I quite agree that benefits shouldn't be paid to anyone who hasn't contributed. This can be dealt with without withdrawing from the EU.
Your message is mixed and confusing - this, which appears to be why you think immigration is the over-riding problem in the UK:
"...the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax."
Seems to be contradicted by this:
"Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me."
If people see the country getting bleaker for them and their children, I repeat (yet again) that they need to look at the cause (extremely rich, mostly white people exploiting everyone, regardless of background or origin) and not the symptom (large numbers of immigrants). UKIP don't seem to have made any attempt to deal with that cause in their pronouncements or manifestoes.
Was the advert I posted the one you were talking about BTW?
Scenario – what if the Conservatives win the next general election. Camaron’s party moving further to the right and becomes more Ukip than Ukip. His attempts at renegotiating with the E.U. fail and he recommends withdrawing from E.U. in a referendum. His government becomes more and more unpopular due to massive cuts in expenditure and lose the referendum to withdraw. I presume he and the government would have to resign.
In answer to your post Lincs, I see the news, I keep up with what's going on through forums such as this, I visit the UK every year. I don't give any credit to sensationalist headlines or what people suspect is going on. The Britain you describe is actually the kind of image that UKIP types like to use as a benchmark of what has been lost by all these foreigners arriving, I was never under the illusion that it was ever like that, but as you bring it up, perhaps you were?
I don't pay UK tax because I am not allowed to, I don't live there. I wish I could, I would be far better off than I am paying tax in Portugal.
I quite agree that benefits shouldn't be paid to anyone who hasn't contributed. This can be dealt with without withdrawing from the EU.
Your message is mixed and confusing - this, which appears to be why you think immigration is the over-riding problem in the UK:
"...the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax."
Seems to be contradicted by this:
"Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me."
If people see the country getting bleaker for them and their children, I repeat (yet again) that they need to look at the cause (extremely rich, mostly white people exploiting everyone, regardless of background or origin) and not the symptom (large numbers of immigrants). UKIP don't seem to have made any attempt to deal with that cause in their pronouncements or manifestoes.
****** Why are these examples contradictory? .. Immigrants from the EU or anywhere else whether in low paid jobs and therefore not contributing to the UK exchequer or unemployed / unemployable both put strains on local services .. for my part the working immigrant is welcome (read my post once more to clarify) as at least he /she is contributing to the 'public good' .. I would sooner that UK born people were doing these jobs, but we are where we are .. as for 'mostly rich white people exploiting everyone' .. are you referring to rich white UK born people or rich immigrants ? .. the 'rich' have been around for a long time, yes they might exploit 'everyone', even if I agree with your assertion, I don't want unemployed immigrants exploiting me as well .. the ad? .. It looks familiar, there were several of them .. I can't be sure as I neither speak nor understand Czech/Slovak .. you keep with the news and visit the UK every year .. as I do to Norway, Portugal, Spain and often to the United States of America .. this does not make me an expert on current social conditions and morés in these countries .. neither do your essentially propagandised TV or newspaper gleanings nor flying visits allow you a true grasp of the true nature of contemporary Britain
In answer to your post Lincs, I see the news, I keep up with what's going on through forums such as this, I visit the UK every year. I don't give any credit to sensationalist headlines or what people suspect is going on. The Britain you describe is actually the kind of image that UKIP types like to use as a benchmark of what has been lost by all these foreigners arriving, I was never under the illusion that it was ever like that, but as you bring it up, perhaps you were?
I don't pay UK tax because I am not allowed to, I don't live there. I wish I could, I would be far better off than I am paying tax in Portugal.
I quite agree that benefits shouldn't be paid to anyone who hasn't contributed. This can be dealt with without withdrawing from the EU.
Your message is mixed and confusing - this, which appears to be why you think immigration is the over-riding problem in the UK:
"...the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax."
Seems to be contradicted by this:
"Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me."
If people see the country getting bleaker for them and their children, I repeat (yet again) that they need to look at the cause (extremely rich, mostly white people exploiting everyone, regardless of background or origin) and not the symptom (large numbers of immigrants). UKIP don't seem to have made any attempt to deal with that cause in their pronouncements or manifestoes.
****** Why are these examples contradictory? .. Immigrants from the EU or anywhere else whether in low paid jobs and therefore not contributing to the UK exchequer or unemployed / unemployable both put strains on local services .. for my part the working immigrant is welcome (read my post once more to clarify) as at least he /she is contributing to the 'public good' .. I would sooner that UK born people were doing these jobs, but we are where we are .. as for 'mostly rich white people exploiting everyone' .. are you referring to rich white UK born people or rich immigrants ? .. the 'rich' have been around for a long time, yes they might exploit 'everyone', even if I agree with your assertion, I don't want unemployed immigrants exploiting me as well .. the ad? .. It looks familiar, there were several of them .. I can't be sure as I neither speak nor understand Czech/Slovak .. you keep with the news and visit the UK every year .. as I do to Norway, Portugal, Spain and often to the United States of America .. this does not make me an expert on current social conditions and morés in these countries .. neither do your essentially propagandised TV or newspaper gleanings nor flying visits allow you a true grasp of the true nature of contemporary Britain
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
It was a flipant commet but I do feel that there is a great deal of contempt for 'normal' people and there views. If people are too uninformed to participate in a referendum perhaps they should also be barred from other elections. We could have exams to qualify for the vote or maybe IQ tests. The fear that offering people a choice because they might vote the wrong way leads down some pretty ugly paths.
I agree that it is wrong to consider the electorate too stupid to be consulted. What I do think though is that having a debate informed enough to enable them to make a decision will be very challenging.
Leaving the EU would have consequences of a magnitude unparalleled in modern times.
I hope people will not be voting based on the spurious arguments of scaremongers immigration figures and on being forced to have straight bananas.
If you had read the 23 pages of this thread you would have noticed that for the most part the debate has been civilised and intelligent. Do you not see that resorting to labelling everyone who might disagree with you as racist, xenophobic and a string of other insults is counter productive to getting your point of view across? Why not concentrate on explaining why you think that immigration is not an issue that impacts on things like education, the NHS, housing and infrastructure thus assisting those of us who may not have a dogmatic view one way or the other to better understand a reasoned argument against UKIP?
I think you will find that the name-calling last resort is counterproductive and by the way it was done about 20 pages ago.
I am stating a widely held opinion that UKIP as a political party is racist and xenophobic. Where is the name calling? Where are the " string of insults?"
Why not actually read my posts , including the link to a very good New Statemam article on UKIP.
You are entitled to your view.
In that spirit I do find your response puzzling to Goonerhater's similarly direct comment regarding "lefties" earlier in the thread.
Is it one law for one?
No Mr Hater has repeatedly had rants over the deplorable events in Rotheram. These usually end by suggesting some sort of guilt by association in theses dispicable crimes for any Labour supporters.
The issue is cynically being used by UKIP in their targeting of the Rotheram seat.
I believe people deserve a say on the EU, we didn't sign up to political union, we signed up for a common market. That's not democracy. We are dictated to by people, many have not heard of and did not vote for. Regardless of your stance on the EU, surely we can all agree a referendum is the right choice.
I share many of your views. My problem is that a referendum will require people to be very fully informed of all the issues. I fear a simplistic yah boo slanging match which will generate heat but very little light.
You could say exactly the same about virtually any election. Perhaps we should all focus on the X Factor and leave the big decisions to the experts.
Generally though, and I include myself in this, we are not as informed about what the EU does than we are for our own country.
It was a flipant commet but I do feel that there is a great deal of contempt for 'normal' people and there views. If people are too uninformed to participate in a referendum perhaps they should also be barred from other elections. We could have exams to qualify for the vote or maybe IQ tests. The fear that offering people a choice because they might vote the wrong way leads down some pretty ugly paths.
I agree that it is wrong to consider the electorate too stupid to be consulted. What I do think though is that having a debate informed enough to enable them to make a decision will be very challenging.
Leaving the EU would have consequences of a magnitude unparalleled in modern times.
I hope people will not be voting based on the spurious arguments of scaremongers immigration figures and on being forced to have straight bananas.
It will be a very very important decision.
Indeed. And we have just had a dry run in Scotland and as in Scotland, the silent majority will win out over a vocal politically biased minority... I hope.
IAgree said, "UKIPS main policies are withdrawal from the EU and pulling up the drawbridge."
It's a pity IAgree, that you couldn't put some more facts, to your viewpoint and not shall we say untruths. UKIP patently will not be "pulling up the drawbridge" and it is precisely those sorts of untruth, that will encourage even more people to vote UKIP. That sort of talk is akin to Gordon Brown calling the lady from Rochdale a bigot and imo, that finally "did for him".
As I've said before. I very much doubt I'd vote for UKIP. However, if I was wavering you'd be pushing me towards them.
Covered End, it's ok. You can vote for UKIP if you want. Why shouldn't you? We won't judge you, you'll still be on of the CL family.
(Your point is bang on the money though - one I'd been trying to get IAgree to see)
Comments
With the web and some effort it is reasonably simple to gather some facts about Europe and the Euro.
1) the euro economy is really about Germany, France, Italy and Spain 65-70% when I researched a while back.
2) Portugal, Ireland and Greece are tiny but no one wants them to fall out
3) if one is really interested there are publications and lunchtime seminars with big hitters.
What I'm saying just as @AFKABartram stated is that Fellow CAFC fans can exchange views and links to share opinions and facts...to me this is the best antidote to lying scaremongering politicians and elements of the media. Having just gone through the Scottish independence vote I am minded to think that we should entrust our parliament to make the right decisions! I had a conversation with a pro referendum lobbyist and the labour minister for Europe a couple of years back and after listening to the lobbyist becoming very excited about the possibility of a vote I stated my view which hasn't changed:
If Labour win outright or form a coalition with the Liberals why would they call for a referendum. It's a distraction and is simply a clumsy device by Cameron which he thought would close out UKIP... Instead it has fed their agenda.
Leaving the EU would be disastrous and politicians who talk of it are being childish and isolationist.
We should be embracing human rights not threatening to leave a court which we established.
Reforming the EU is important and I believe that the centre left may find allies across Europe particularly if there is an agenda on jobs, global corporations and freeing up trade and restrictive practices. And I expect the Germans would welcome a hand in trying to improve economic and political prospects so that we all can continue to export our political philosophy to the parts of Europe not yet touched by the EU.
Rising living standards in new joiners and opening up new markets is a win win which is far more positive than anything I hear from UKIP. Our country and especially our capital is based upon generation upon generation of political and economic immigration and that's why it's the best City in the world!
With regards to the EU, I don't think the EU can be reformed to the extent we need it to be. The free movement of people is a cornerstone of the EU and as far as I can tell is non negotiable.
I believe we need to have stricter border controls, how can we plan for the future if we don't? It's like having your wedding day and saying anyone can come. How can you budget for that, how can you plan for things like housing and school needs? Add to that the fact that we now discriminate against people from outside of the EU from emigrating to this country. People from countries such as Austrlia, New Zealand and Canada. Countries who have stood by us in the past and with whom we have much in common with.
When it does happen I wonder what "rabbit from a hat" the two main parties will pull in the form of pledges if it looks like being close. You have the SNP ironically wanting to stay in as well. I doubt that in the end there would be a vote for the unknown but that's democracy for you.
The latest poll showing how typical voters miss state the EU and overseas aid budget together with the percentage of Muslims etc tells me that the Mail and Farrage propaganda has had a disproportionate effect on people's perception of reality.
Before supporting a referendum which might well be cathartic I would want more time for a centre left government to engage with Europe and more information about voting intentions and key issues - in short I wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight! I would also want a longer period of more mature adult discussions and political engagement. Some commentators and posters on here believe that the UK political parties are incapable of reform. My take is that the conservatives are in desperate trouble and even last night are announcing "game changing" immigration ideas (no detail) as a response to a forthcoming bye election. UKIP are gaining 1% per month and the tories are dropping.
I would therefore reserve judgement on a referendum until we have a clearer idea of the shape of Westminster after the next election. Like Salmond, Farage won't go away. As I have posted before his challenge is to the centre left to communicate positive proposals for the working people and that means jobs, NHS and cutting energy costs / improving typical take home pay. Six years since 2008 and I read today that take home disposable income is the same as 2008. In that time we've had six years of a mild inflation which hides rampant food and energy inflation.
What I mean i believe the root cause is a complete failure to raise living standards so I wouldn't choose to pander to an ultra right wing agenda to solve the issue.
As before, I might be in a minority but I embrace immigration as I believe it enriches our life experiences.
Can't we go back to talking about Neil Sodding Hamilton and whether UKIPers are happy to have a bloke like him involved at a senior level? I had at least a chance of understanding that... :-)
Well said, I was losing the will to live.
IAgree said, "UKIPS main policies are withdrawal from the EU and pulling up the drawbridge."
It's a pity IAgree, that you couldn't put some more facts, to your viewpoint and not shall we say untruths.
UKIP patently will not be "pulling up the drawbridge" and it is precisely those sorts of untruth, that will encourage even more people to vote UKIP. That sort of talk is akin to Gordon Brown calling the lady from Rochdale a bigot and imo, that finally "did for him".
As I've said before. I very much doubt I'd vote for UKIP. However, if I was wavering you'd be pushing me towards them.
Amongst other things, the crash of 2007/8, the profligate if well intentioned spending of the last Labour government and the inability of the Tories/Liberal Democrats to either adequately penalise and control the machinations of the 'financial sector of the economy', a k a bankers, or to manage what is probably already a runaway train economy, have led to serious discontent amongst many British people as their living standards fall, prices rise and salaries stagnate. This like it or not, is a fact. Many see a bleak and getting bleaker future for either themselves or their children. England is a different country from the one you have left behind. Whether 'we' like it or not, that is the situation.
As with all political situations that are perceived as broken and in need of serious change, some will look to solutions from the left bank of politics and some from the right. UKIP is neither a Nazi nor a Leninist/Stalinist party, it is a party attempting to express and to solve in some measure the fears and expectations of a large number of middle and working class Britons of all political persuasions, not in any way that ridiculous and hackneyed figure of supposed disrepute, the 'Daily Mail Reader'. Being of the middle, that is the appeal of UKIP. The British tend to shy away from anything too extreme, especially politicians.
I repeat the sentiment that I share with many others , the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax. However when working, they are all contributing to the good old GNP and in many cases are doing jobs that the British are too lazy, stupid or proud to do. That is another subject and another bone to chew on some time
What I am saying is quite simple. Benefits and housing of any kind should not be payable to people who come here from anywhere in the world looking for a hand-out. Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me. I don't care if the cost of 'benefits tourism' to the taxpayer is to paraphrase your words 'minimal' .. minimal or maximal is needs stopping, Incidentally AA do you still pay UK taxes? .. You can take the 'fifth' on that one if you like.
As to UK subjects not paying their taxes, and the horrible Monaco dwelling lump that is P Green telling us all that we need to pull out our fingers and start paying our dues, it's cliché time, 1000 wrongs do not a right make, we are stuck with enough UK born and bred 'scroungers' and tax avoiders. We certainly do not want to add to the numbers any time soon
The same should happen in the UK. When UKIP take office as the biggest, best-supported party in the country, with the most seats, they can decide to have a straight in/out referendum and let the country decide.
Can't see it happening somehow.
Get a feeling that it's just some clout being used by them just to renegotiate some better terms for the UK.
The comments about UKIP and it's supporters doesn't add anything to the debate.
After their successes at the European Elections, winning in Clacton, significant swing to them in Lancashire and the likely event that Reckless will be re-elected, the popular vote is certainly theirs at the moment.
Just calling people nobheads and racists, isn't a constructive arguement to prevent the migration of votes to them from the other parties. They know that they're hemorrhaging votes, but presently they seem to be doing little to stop it.
Plenty of reasoned and well thought out response on this thread so far - perhaps we should form our own cross divide party?
Interesting article. Looks like UKIP will get a lot less seats than their pollings suggest (due to First Past the Post) but looks like it will be at least 5... (For those that are interested, SkyBet are now at 1.73 for 5 or more seats, couldn't be happier with my decision now)
I don't pay UK tax because I am not allowed to, I don't live there. I wish I could, I would be far better off than I am paying tax in Portugal.
I quite agree that benefits shouldn't be paid to anyone who hasn't contributed. This can be dealt with without withdrawing from the EU.
Your message is mixed and confusing - this, which appears to be why you think immigration is the over-riding problem in the UK:
"...the huge influx of immigration into this country and HUGE is not an overstatement, is putting serious pressure on local council services, the NHS, education services, the police and the charitable sector to name but a few. Few immigrants in manual jobs and/or low grade service sector jobs earn enough to contribute in cash terms to the UK economy through NI/Tax."
Seems to be contradicted by this:
"Anyone coming to the UK with the intention of working and contributing to the social and economic well being of the country is OK with me."
If people see the country getting bleaker for them and their children, I repeat (yet again) that they need to look at the cause (extremely rich, mostly white people exploiting everyone, regardless of background or origin) and not the symptom (large numbers of immigrants). UKIP don't seem to have made any attempt to deal with that cause in their pronouncements or manifestoes.
Was the advert I posted the one you were talking about BTW?
I presume he and the government would have to resign.
I agree that it is wrong to consider the electorate too stupid to be consulted. What I do think though is that having a debate informed enough to enable them to make a decision will be very challenging.
Leaving the EU would have consequences of a magnitude unparalleled in modern times.
I hope people will not be voting based on the spurious arguments of scaremongers immigration figures and on being forced to have straight bananas.
It will be a very very important decision.
It's a pity IAgree, that you couldn't put some more facts, to your viewpoint and not shall we say untruths.
UKIP patently will not be "pulling up the drawbridge" and it is precisely those sorts of untruth, that will encourage even more people to vote UKIP. That sort of talk is akin to Gordon Brown calling the lady from Rochdale a bigot and imo, that finally "did for him".
As I've said before. I very much doubt I'd vote for UKIP. However, if I was wavering you'd be pushing me towards them.
Covered End, it's ok. You can vote for UKIP if you want. Why shouldn't you? We won't judge you, you'll still be on of the CL family.
(Your point is bang on the money though - one I'd been trying to get IAgree to see)