What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true. I will vote Ukip in the general election based on what I have seen and experienced in the area I live in over the last ten years. Lack of housing NHS Jobs which imo being in the EU has had a very negative affect on the population and for me Ukip seem to be the only party making the right noises regarding thise issues.
It will be interesting how long the BBC can get away with referring to LibLabCon as 'the three main parties'. We are seeing the true beginning of 5-Party Politics in England and 6-Party Politics in Scotland and Wales. The idea of having a 3-party televised debate is frankly perverse - the Westminster elite may have gotten away with this stitch-up in 2010 but to have a televised debate including Clegg but excluding UKIP and Greens is in no way credible. In many areas UKIP will be the direct challenger to the incumbent and it is time the BBC stopped ignoring them or getting in rent-a-gobs from the Graun/Indy to denounce them as racists and loonies in place of factual and informed debate. The Greens find themselves in the same position UKIP was in 5 years ago - not enough support to win anything above the 1 or 2 seats it has a core support in but strong enough to have a significant effect on seats across the country.
I honestly think UKIP could win more seats in 2015 than the LibDems. When this does happen (and it will happen, if not in 2015, then somewhere down the line), it will be ridiculous if the BBC continues to pretend that there are no serious parties outside the LibLabCon stitch-up.
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
Remind me what school man of the people Nigel went to? Real voice of the working class...
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't say I'm pro EU but I'm definitely not anti EU. The truth is that EU migrants into the UK are net contributors to the economy. Add to this that the majority of migrants are young, that helps with our aging population and the pressures that brings on the economy. Now, the real problem is what the government is doing, there is obviously a housing shortage, but why isn't the govt doing more? If migrants are net contributors what is the govt doing with that extra money?
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
How are government cuts increasing demand for overseas workers?
It should also be noted that France, who has pursued the kind of aggressively high tax policies that Ed Miliband and Labour endorse, has seen a massive brain drain of skilled workers, to the point that UK recruitment agents are reporting huge rises in skilled applicants with French as a first language.
For example, this government scrapped many vocational qualifications all in a bid to keep teenagers in school until the age of 18. There are also plans to cut funding for apprenticeships. That has to have a negative impact on the number of skilled British workers.
Another example is social care, an industry that is on the whole public funded yet pay has historically been very poor. This leads to a low demand for these jobs from British workers.
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
Remind me what school man of the people Nigel went to? Real voice of the working class...
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
Anyone ? Coltthe3rd responded without actually answering imo and I too don't understand how government cuts increase the need for more immigration.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't say I'm pro EU but I'm definitely not anti EU. The truth is that EU migrants into the UK are net contributors to the economy. Add to this that the majority of migrants are young, that helps with our aging population and the pressures that brings on the economy. Now, the real problem is what the government is doing, there is obviously a housing shortage, but why isn't the govt doing more? If migrants are net contributors what is the govt doing with that extra money?
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
How are government cuts increasing demand for overseas workers?
It should also be noted that France, who has pursued the kind of aggressively high tax policies that Ed Miliband and Labour endorse, has seen a massive brain drain of skilled workers, to the point that UK recruitment agents are reporting huge rises in skilled applicants with French as a first language.
For example, this government scrapped many vocational qualifications all in a bid to keep teenagers in school until the age of 18. There are also plans to cut funding for apprenticeships. That has to have a negative impact on the number of skilled British workers.
Another example is social care, an industry that is on the whole public funded yet pay has historically been very poor. This leads to a low demand for these jobs from British workers.
1) Shifting people from apprenticeships to education until isn't necessarily a cut? Those kids in college still need to be paid?
2) So the demand for overseas workers in social care isn't due to a lack of skilled UK labour but due to the fact that UK workers would rather be unemployed or working in another job for similar pay. Can't see how a degree-educated Belgian would come to England to deliver meals to disabled pensioners.
The BBC will never include UKIP due to the fact farage demolished clegg in the recent lbc debate and Cameron and miliband will put pressure on them not to include them because they are running scared with there round the houses answers to topical meaning questions that they can't answer straight
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
Remind me what school man of the people Nigel went to? Real voice of the working class...
The same one as the current Labour shadow cabinet member John Spellar. And the Labour MP for Ipswich - Chris Mole
Oh, and that well known right wing "comedian" and woman of the people Jo brand
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
Remind me what school man of the people Nigel went to? Real voice of the working class...
The same one as the current Labour shadow cabinet member John Spellar. And the Labour MP for Ipswich - Chris Mole
Oh, and that well known right wing "comedian" and woman of the people Jo brand
Jo Brand went to school in Tunbridge Wells according to Wikipedia. I suspect the only connection she has with Farage is being a stripy Nigel.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't say I'm pro EU but I'm definitely not anti EU. The truth is that EU migrants into the UK are net contributors to the economy. Add to this that the majority of migrants are young, that helps with our aging population and the pressures that brings on the economy. Now, the real problem is what the government is doing, there is obviously a housing shortage, but why isn't the govt doing more? If migrants are net contributors what is the govt doing with that extra money?
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
How are government cuts increasing demand for overseas workers?
It should also be noted that France, who has pursued the kind of aggressively high tax policies that Ed Miliband and Labour endorse, has seen a massive brain drain of skilled workers, to the point that UK recruitment agents are reporting huge rises in skilled applicants with French as a first language.
For example, this government scrapped many vocational qualifications all in a bid to keep teenagers in school until the age of 18. There are also plans to cut funding for apprenticeships. That has to have a negative impact on the number of skilled British workers.
Another example is social care, an industry that is on the whole public funded yet pay has historically been very poor. This leads to a low demand for these jobs from British workers.
1) Shifting people from apprenticeships to education until isn't necessarily a cut? Those kids in college still need to be paid?
2) So the demand for overseas workers in social care isn't due to a lack of skilled UK labour but due to the fact that UK workers would rather be unemployed or working in another job for similar pay. Can't see how a degree-educated Belgian would come to England to deliver meals to disabled pensioners.
No it isn't necessarily a cut but my original point was that public policy influences labour demand in certain areas. Shifting away from apprenticeships leads to a reduction in available labour in particular in industries thus creating a shortage which migrants help fill.
I'm not saying people would rather be unemployed than take low pay, I was suggesting areas such as social care which are low paid will not attract certain people, again a foreign national who is willing to work for that pay will move to the UK and fill that job.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
You missed this from me then?:
Managing population growth in the UK is a big issue, I fully agree, and not one that most EU countries have to face, although a lot of southern EU countries are overwhelmed by illegals from Africa. Perhaps we should be both pressuring them and helping them to tighten their own borders, so that less of them end up in Calais.
My point is that leaving the EU won't necessarily do much to stem the population growth. You'd need to know which elements of the population are contributing most to the growth. I'd be very interested to see reliable figures about the Poles, for example. I believe a lot have returned home. Their economy is doing reasonably well. The other thing I wonder is why so many illegal migrants choose to go on to Britain, rather than stay further south. Whatever France does to discourage them, presumably Britain could copy, since France is an EU member. And if we leave the EU I don't see how that will make things possible to discourage the Calais migrants which are not possible now. Or are you proposing to close the Channel Tunnel?
What are the policies of Lab/Con/Lib then? Because I don't know! Labour used to be working class but is increasingly turning into middleclass university oxford and Cambridge graduates, Lib Dem don't know their arse from their elbow and the Torys are just Wolves in sheeps clothing who cannot be trusted on anything.
So why exactly do you trust UKIP? Whose interests do you think they will represent?
Don't trust any of the fuckers to be honest, do you really think any of political parties give a shit about the normal working class citizens because I don't. Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that. They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
Remind me what school man of the people Nigel went to? Real voice of the working class...
The same one as the current Labour shadow cabinet member John Spellar. And the Labour MP for Ipswich - Chris Mole
Oh, and that well known right wing "comedian" and woman of the people Jo brand
Jo Brand went to school in Tunbridge Wells according to Wikipedia. I suspect the only connection she has with Farage is being a stripy Nigel.
Sorry - my mistake, for some reason I thought she was an old Alleynian.
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
That's because no one actually votes for UKIP.
Or more likely they don't want to come on here announcing that they're racist and homophobic.
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
That's because there are no easy answers to such a question. I'd be punching above my weight if I tried to tackle that, especially off the cuff.
Leaving the EU is not the easy answer. If you choose to believe that it's the answer, you'll be disappointed and will have been led up the garden path by Farage, if you choose to vote for him on that basis.
For @addickted's benefit I repeat Farage is a charlatan ("a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill"). That isn't name calling, it was a carefully chosen word.
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
That's because no one actually votes for UKIP.
Or more likely they don't want to come on here announcing that they're racist and homophobic.
You've lost me there. I'm looking for a response from pro EU and presumably anti UKIP, not the other way round.
No one wants to offer an opinion, as to should a line ever be drawn for the population of Britain.
If we're in the EU we cannot control EU immigration. So theoretically our population will rise to 65M, 70M, 75M, 80M .......
Will it rise to 100M and upwards ?
Will there ever become a point, where the EU will change their rules ?
If there will become a point, what is that point and why is it not now ?
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'm not a UKIP supporter as such & won't be voting for them. But they are making legitimate noises re immigration levels, that the other parties have buried and many called "racist" to anyone wishing to discuss the matter. If EU immigration cannot be controlled, where will it all end ? It can't go one forever, can it ?
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
That's because no one actually votes for UKIP.
Or more likely they don't want to come on here announcing that they're racist and homophobic.
Sorry Prague but you are NOT answering my 5 points. You are skirting around them. I'm not talking about illegals. No one else has addressed my points either !
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
You missed this from me then?:
Managing population growth in the UK is a big issue, I fully agree, and not one that most EU countries have to face, although a lot of southern EU countries are overwhelmed by illegals from Africa. Perhaps we should be both pressuring them and helping them to tighten their own borders, so that less of them end up in Calais.
My point is that leaving the EU won't necessarily do much to stem the population growth. You'd need to know which elements of the population are contributing most to the growth. I'd be very interested to see reliable figures about the Poles, for example. I believe a lot have returned home. Their economy is doing reasonably well. The other thing I wonder is why so many illegal migrants choose to go on to Britain, rather than stay further south. Whatever France does to discourage them, presumably Britain could copy, since France is an EU member. And if we leave the EU I don't see how that will make things possible to discourage the Calais migrants which are not possible now. Or are you proposing to close the Channel Tunnel?
I suspect that it probably has more to do with language than anything else. If you're going to up-sticks, it makes sense to go to a place where you can communicate with others. According to AFK Insider there are 700m English speakers in Africa compared to 90m French speakers. It could well be that our greatest asset is what draws people here. That might mean that there's not a lot that the French do that we could copy - other than let our language go into international decline ;-) Even that is out of our hands as we are definately the junior partner these days in terms of exporting the English language.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't call myself pro-EU, I am anti-UKIP. Free market capitalism expects the market to solve all problems. If there is unemployment, wages will fall. If there is a shortage of labour, wages will rise and people will move to take advantage of it. This happens within countries and internationally. The approach of the EU has been to try and mirror the USA, with its ability to switch labour from places it isn't needed to places it is (e.g. the move from the mid west to the south west in the USA over the last 40 years). Obviously it is more difficult because of language, but the EU implies free movement of labour. It is something that most British people are unable to take advantage of because of our poor language skills and the low pay offered in most EU countries. Britain can pull out of the EU, or possibly renegotiate the free movement part but I can't see that working. But the same issues will apply - supply and demand will determine how much people get paid and what the jobs are. Personally I think all this is exacerbated by technological changes that have made many skilled jobs disappear. People will still get here to work illegally. Harsh border controls will have several affects: illegals will work for much less than the legal minimum because employers can fire them by informing on them. It will be harder for important UK export industries (like higher education) to function as foreign students are put off from coming, and there will be difficulties with divisions between communities. Don't believe me? This is already happening in North America. There's no free movement in NAFTA and skilled jobs have migrated from US and Canada to Mexico. There is also enormous illegal migration to the USA, with several laws allowing people who look like Hispanics to be stopped and asked for papers, people who have only ever lived there and don't speak Spanish being deported etc. And it costs a huge amount to the US authorities. To really deal with immigration, you need to either be massively isolated, like Australia/NZ, or be somewhere with a crap economy that isn't near somewhere where things are really bad, e.g. Ireland. Even Greece has migration into it (as well as out of it) because it is an easy route into Europe from the middle East. Not sure I've answered what you're asking. I think there is a lot wrong with the EU and am not sure how I would vote if we had a referendum. I don't think everyone concerned about immigration is a racist and hope I've responded in a way that shows this. I do think though that almost all racists are concerned about immigration. I've looked at the UKIP website and I think they are careful to avoid making any racial overtones on their policies, but they do say some things - like "getting rid of political correctness" - that imply a more acceptable climate for racism.
Looks like I scared sky ;-). About an hour after I placed my "5 or more bet" they lowered to 2.38, then in the evening to 2.25 and I woke up this morning to 1.8....
I will be interested to see whether your bet comes off. I couldn't honestly work out if the odds you got were good or not. Now it looks like they probably were.
You know, you have convinced me. Well you have convinced me that we and especially the political class have to meet your questions head on, and up to now they haven't. There needs to be a limit set. As far as I am aware, the UK is the only major EU country whose population is increasing at a significant rate, and that being the case, sensible leaders of other EU countries will probably respond to our need to place such limits.
However there are dangers to setting such limits in a simplistic way:
1. We need a growth in younger working age people to pay for the pensions and care for the rest of us. One of the reasons for population growth is that we are living longer. I think even Farage knows this.
2. We need to really find out exactly from where the population growth is coming. I seriously doubt that EU migration is the key element, because a lot of them go home again after a couple of years.
3. The UKIP approach is likely to demonise certain groups, and not to get the mature co-operative discussion with the Germans and French etc we need if we are going to agree on what to do within the EU. @rananegra has shown how tricky the issues are, excellent post
Nevertheless, you are right, we have to confront it. That's something I hadn't fully realised myself, so this thread has been a good one for me to participate in. It also therefore means that at leasts the rise of UKIP is helpful if it forces the issue onto the agenda.
Comments
Do they ask for a referendum on any of the important decisions that have to be made involving this country? Scotland apart granted and they couldn't even win that.
They look after number one themselves, harsh, simple but very true.
I will vote Ukip in the general election based on what I have seen and experienced in the area I live in over the last ten years.
Lack of housing
NHS
Jobs which imo being in the EU has had a very negative affect on the population and for me Ukip seem to be the only party making the right noises regarding thise issues.
I honestly think UKIP could win more seats in 2015 than the LibDems. When this does happen (and it will happen, if not in 2015, then somewhere down the line), it will be ridiculous if the BBC continues to pretend that there are no serious parties outside the LibLabCon stitch-up.
Another example is social care, an industry that is on the whole public funded yet pay has historically been very poor. This leads to a low demand for these jobs from British workers.
2) So the demand for overseas workers in social care isn't due to a lack of skilled UK labour but due to the fact that UK workers would rather be unemployed or working in another job for similar pay. Can't see how a degree-educated Belgian would come to England to deliver meals to disabled pensioners.
Oh, and that well known right wing "comedian" and woman of the people Jo brand
I'm not saying people would rather be unemployed than take low pay, I was suggesting areas such as social care which are low paid will not attract certain people, again a foreign national who is willing to work for that pay will move to the UK and fill that job.
Managing population growth in the UK is a big issue, I fully agree, and not one that most EU countries have to face, although a lot of southern EU countries are overwhelmed by illegals from Africa. Perhaps we should be both pressuring them and helping them to tighten their own borders, so that less of them end up in Calais.
My point is that leaving the EU won't necessarily do much to stem the population growth. You'd need to know which elements of the population are contributing most to the growth. I'd be very interested to see reliable figures about the Poles, for example. I believe a lot have returned home. Their economy is doing reasonably well. The other thing I wonder is why so many illegal migrants choose to go on to Britain, rather than stay further south. Whatever France does to discourage them, presumably Britain could copy, since France is an EU member. And if we leave the EU I don't see how that will make things possible to discourage the Calais migrants which are not possible now. Or are you proposing to close the Channel Tunnel?
Bob Monkhouse was expelled from DC if that helps?
No one else has addressed my points either !
Or more likely they don't want to come on here announcing that they're racist and homophobic.
That's because there are no easy answers to such a question. I'd be punching above my weight if I tried to tackle that, especially off the cuff.
Leaving the EU is not the easy answer. If you choose to believe that it's the answer, you'll be disappointed and will have been led up the garden path by Farage, if you choose to vote for him on that basis.
For @addickted's benefit I repeat Farage is a charlatan ("a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill"). That isn't name calling, it was a carefully chosen word.
No one wants to offer an opinion, as to should a line ever be drawn for the population of Britain.
If we're in the EU we cannot control EU immigration. So theoretically our population will rise to 65M, 70M, 75M, 80M .......
Will it rise to 100M and upwards ?
Will there ever become a point, where the EU will change their rules ?
If there will become a point, what is that point and why is it not now ?
Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'm not a UKIP supporter as such & won't be voting for them. But they are making legitimate noises re immigration levels, that the other parties have buried and many called "racist" to anyone wishing to discuss the matter. If EU immigration cannot be controlled, where will it all end ? It can't go one forever, can it ?
Free market capitalism expects the market to solve all problems. If there is unemployment, wages will fall. If there is a shortage of labour, wages will rise and people will move to take advantage of it. This happens within countries and internationally. The approach of the EU has been to try and mirror the USA, with its ability to switch labour from places it isn't needed to places it is (e.g. the move from the mid west to the south west in the USA over the last 40 years). Obviously it is more difficult because of language, but the EU implies free movement of labour. It is something that most British people are unable to take advantage of because of our poor language skills and the low pay offered in most EU countries.
Britain can pull out of the EU, or possibly renegotiate the free movement part but I can't see that working. But the same issues will apply - supply and demand will determine how much people get paid and what the jobs are. Personally I think all this is exacerbated by technological changes that have made many skilled jobs disappear. People will still get here to work illegally. Harsh border controls will have several affects: illegals will work for much less than the legal minimum because employers can fire them by informing on them. It will be harder for important UK export industries (like higher education) to function as foreign students are put off from coming, and there will be difficulties with divisions between communities. Don't believe me? This is already happening in North America. There's no free movement in NAFTA and skilled jobs have migrated from US and Canada to Mexico. There is also enormous illegal migration to the USA, with several laws allowing people who look like Hispanics to be stopped and asked for papers, people who have only ever lived there and don't speak Spanish being deported etc. And it costs a huge amount to the US authorities.
To really deal with immigration, you need to either be massively isolated, like Australia/NZ, or be somewhere with a crap economy that isn't near somewhere where things are really bad, e.g. Ireland. Even Greece has migration into it (as well as out of it) because it is an easy route into Europe from the middle East.
Not sure I've answered what you're asking. I think there is a lot wrong with the EU and am not sure how I would vote if we had a referendum. I don't think everyone concerned about immigration is a racist and hope I've responded in a way that shows this. I do think though that almost all racists are concerned about immigration. I've looked at the UKIP website and I think they are careful to avoid making any racial overtones on their policies, but they do say some things - like "getting rid of political correctness" - that imply a more acceptable climate for racism.
You know, you have convinced me. Well you have convinced me that we and especially the political class have to meet your questions head on, and up to now they haven't. There needs to be a limit set. As far as I am aware, the UK is the only major EU country whose population is increasing at a significant rate, and that being the case, sensible leaders of other EU countries will probably respond to our need to place such limits.
However there are dangers to setting such limits in a simplistic way:
1. We need a growth in younger working age people to pay for the pensions and care for the rest of us. One of the reasons for population growth is that we are living longer. I think even Farage knows this.
2. We need to really find out exactly from where the population growth is coming. I seriously doubt that EU migration is the key element, because a lot of them go home again after a couple of years.
3. The UKIP approach is likely to demonise certain groups, and not to get the mature co-operative discussion with the Germans and French etc we need if we are going to agree on what to do within the EU. @rananegra has shown how tricky the issues are, excellent post
Nevertheless, you are right, we have to confront it. That's something I hadn't fully realised myself, so this thread has been a good one for me to participate in. It also therefore means that at leasts the rise of UKIP is helpful if it forces the issue onto the agenda.