Even taking into consideration the general dissolutionment with politics that currently grips the country and the feeling that the three main parties need a good kicking. What astonishes and slightly frightens me is that so many people seem prepared to nail their colours to the mast of a party that really doesn't have any cohesive policies or more than a handful of candidates that are even remotely likely to be of the quality to sit it the Commons.
It might well be that UKIP wreak havoc next May and perhaps that is a good thing and is what is needed to shake up the creaking left and right parties but the thought of anything more is a terrifying prospect.
As I have said on here before the UKIP emergence put the Tory press in a very awkward position.
Normally they would spend the next 8 months hammering the shit out of Red Ed and Nick-Nice-but-Dim - although they are quite capable of fucking it themselves - but with UKIP rising then they now have to bash them up too.
The Tory press may attack Labour policies but they will have a massive attack on UKIP prospective MPs, you can bet your bollocks that CCHQ will be rummaging round the personal histories of every UKIP candidate.
They will, in fact, already be sitting on a huge trove of research on the UKIP people - but won't release it until at least April next year.
It would not surprise me if a smart guy like Lynton Crosby had even planted a couple of Manchurian candidates amongst the UKIP bunch and have them primed to explode next April.
What is this Tory press? not something that I recognise, Tory dominated newspapers are long gone, maybe you should read around.
IMO the uprise of UKIP has got very little to with the general public view of the EU. The rise of UKIP is more to do with the fact that for a lot of working class people in the UK the 3 main political parties do not have a clue about the life's of ordinary people. This is normally the case with the Tories but for Labour (who are meant to be the party for the Woking class) with their leader who is so useless and so out of touch is what is leading the working class to look for an alternative.
As the majority of UKIP policies are not known this is to their advantage in this case particularly when Labour's response to UKIP is 1 to smear the people in the party (exactly what Brown did to the woman at the last election) and 2 to patronise those voting for UKIP as they are doing it as a protest vote and will be back with Labour shortly
I don't know if I will vote for UKIP but their arguments for exit from the EU stack up for me and nothing the other parties offer compare or make sense to me. What affects me most is EU regulation and I resent the erosion of traditional UK law based on precedent and proportionality where as long as you obey the law an individual can do what he wants with his energies resources and property. In Europe, the individual serves the State, and individuals have to follow process set by the State whether they are suited to an individual or not. The individual can be infringing laws even if he is doing nothing wrong. Only UKIP articulate this concern I have.
The idea that Cameron can renegotiate terms with the EU is a fraud. Thatcher apparently only found out after signing the 1986 Single European Act that when you sign up to the "Acquis" (which means "what has been acquired"), the single market and the regulations are inseparable. You can't have a bit "that is not what has been acquired" it would allow every State to have its own acquis making the EU administratively ungovernable, and the EU is all about administering governance.
if UKIP was only supported by racists and homophobes etc. what does it say about a huge raft of our population? It is nonsense and the blog in the Independent linked to above is typical of where the establishment doesn't get it. Apparently we should laugh at UKIP and dismiss it because it harks back to "old-fashioned standards, to integrity, to post-war patriotism". Well news for the Independent, many normal working people who respect self-reliance think standards, integrity and patriotism are values to be respected, not mocked.
2 of the many reasons visas have been refused are that he's not British which is truly odd as I doubt our family could be more British; and that he couldn't support his family in the UK, something which is again very odd as the headline of that article makes clear
this story may crop up again this week as many of our family live in Reckless's constituency
2 of the many reasons visas have been refused are that he's not British which is truly odd as I doubt our family could be more British; and that he couldn't support his family in the UK, something which is again very odd as the headline of that article makes clear
this story may crop up again this week as many of our family live in Reckless's constituency
I don't know if I will vote for UKIP but their arguments for exit from the EU stack up for me and nothing the other parties offer compare or make sense to me. What affects me most is EU regulation and I resent the erosion of traditional UK law based on precedent and proportionality where as long as you obey the law an individual can do what he wants with his energies resources and property. In Europe, the individual serves the State, and individuals have to follow process set by the State whether they are suited to an individual or not. The individual can be infringing laws even if he is doing nothing wrong. Only UKIP articulate this concern I have.
The idea that Cameron can renegotiate terms with the EU is a fraud. Thatcher apparently only found out after signing the 1986 Single European Act that when you sign up to the "Acquis" (which means "what has been acquired"), the single market and the regulations are inseparable. You can't have a bit "that is not what has been acquired" it would allow every State to have its own acquis making the EU administratively ungovernable, and the EU is all about administering governance.
if UKIP was only supported by racists and homophobes etc. what does it say about a huge raft of our population? It is nonsense and the blog in the Independent linked to above is typical of where the establishment doesn't get it. Apparently we should laugh at UKIP and dismiss it because it harks back to "old-fashioned standards, to integrity, to post-war patriotism". Well news for the Independent, many normal working people who respect self-reliance think standards, integrity and patriotism are values to be respected, not mocked.
The UK have a far better opportunity to renegotiate now compared to Maggie Thatchers time - at that time the EU economy was buoyant and now it's in meltdown and they need the uk possible more than the uk need the EU.
2 of the many reasons visas have been refused are that he's not British which is truly odd as I doubt our family could be more British; and that he couldn't support his family in the UK, something which is again very odd as the headline of that article makes clear
this story may crop up again this week as many of our family live in Reckless's constituency
Good luck with this. When my wife (then fiancé) was refused a visit visa I actually phoned up the head of the British consulate in Thailand and got it overturned that day. - I was extremely lucky.
An observation from someone, that will not be voting for UKIP, but can understand why many will.
It would seem, that many of the posters on this thread, who appear to be, the most opposed to UKIP, live abroad, mainly in other European countries. Therefore, it is not surprising that these posters are pro the EU. I wouldn't expect anything else.
Decent points @Covered End, although I think I'd be a bit more impressed if you had just admitted that you are taking to task @Algarveaddick and I, that's a grand total of two.
Anyway I don't know about Algarve but I don't think the suggestion that I live in a happy clappy EU country that gives me rose tinted specs, is fair. The Czech republic has plenty of eurosceptics too. However living in another EU country (and living close to Germany) does give you another perspective on how it works. Most of all it allows you to directly compare the strengths and weaknesses of different countries' policies, which makes you slightly more suspicious of easy catch -all political "solutions".
Managing population growth in the UK is a big issue, I fully agree, and not one that most EU countries have to face, although a lot of southern EU countries are overwhelmed by illegals from Africa. Perhaps we should be both pressuring them and helping them to tighten their own borders, so that less of them end up in Calais.
The health tourism issue that keeps being brought up is completely bogus. The NHS has estimated a total cost of foreign nationals claiming treatment in the UK at £12m. Now, in isolation this figure would seem a lot. The NHS budget is £108.9bn. Health tourism is such a tiny amount of the NHS budget that anyone claiming it needs addressing before much more pressing issues with the health service in this country is just wrong.
The health tourism issue that keeps being brought up is completely bogus. The NHS has estimated a total cost of foreign nationals claiming treatment in the UK at £12m. Now, in isolation this figure would seem a lot. The NHS budget is £108.9bn. Health tourism is such a tiny amount of the NHS budget that anyone claiming it needs addressing before much more pressing issues with the health service in this country is just wrong.
£108.9bn.........imagine what that could be spent on or the tax savings to the working population when the NHS is privatised.
@ Dippenhall I'd be interested in concrete examples you've got of how EU regulations affect you. Not just to have an argument. I definitely agree with you that the British legal tenets of precedent and proportionality are superior, and I miss them, when I run up against the law here. On the other hand a lot of EU regulations are based on directives, which actually have no legal precedent over UK law, and that's why for example many goods in the UK are still sold with a one year guarantee when the EU directive says it should be two years, as we discussed here a couple of weeks ago.
The "reasonable man" might think that if you buy a book from Amazon UK, and it is sent to your London address, the transaction happened in the UK, and the idea that Amazon should pay tax on it in Luxembourg is laughable. Unfortunately so far the great British legal system hasn't brought Amazon to court to pay up. But the EC is getting its teeth into them now, as it has successfully done already with several big multinationals. Your roaming charges are lower as a result, for example.
So I'd say that countries should keep the EU together while negotiating to preserve national superiority in key laws. Such negotiations require mature outward looking people who show that they actually want to be in the same club as their 27 counterparts. Farage clearly isn't such a person.
The health tourism issue that keeps being brought up is completely bogus. The NHS has estimated a total cost of foreign nationals claiming treatment in the UK at £12m. Now, in isolation this figure would seem a lot. The NHS budget is £108.9bn. Health tourism is such a tiny amount of the NHS budget that anyone claiming it needs addressing before much more pressing issues with the health service in this country is just wrong.
£12 million would probably cover a couple of weeks of treating foreign patients on the NHS. The health secretary Jeremy Hunt even said himself the total was around £2billion back in 2013. It will be more than that this year.
I am not trying to belittle you but I just thought your £12m figure was a bit low so I looked it up.
Having contributed to this debate early on, I have been reading all the later posts with interest. And if I may say so, I think this is Charlton Life at its very best.
Apart from the couple of guys bounding rascist around at anyone daring to diverge from their opinions - sorry gents but I think this sort of behaviour is actually driving people into the arms of UKIP as I think more and more people are getting fed up with the name calling when all they are doing is raising issues of concern to them (in my case the driving down of wages) - there are some really interesting points being made on both sides of the argument. And those points are being made by and large in a civilised manner which given the nature of the subject is to be applauded.Thanks to all concerned for doing so.
I just wish the arguments on all threads were conducted in this way!
All I would add now is that the Rochester by-election is going to be fascinating. And presumably there will be a good few Charlton fans who will be able to take part. Will be interesting to hear their thoughts as polling day approaches.
The health tourism issue that keeps being brought up is completely bogus. The NHS has estimated a total cost of foreign nationals claiming treatment in the UK at £12m. Now, in isolation this figure would seem a lot. The NHS budget is £108.9bn. Health tourism is such a tiny amount of the NHS budget that anyone claiming it needs addressing before much more pressing issues with the health service in this country is just wrong.
£12 million would probably cover a couple of weeks of treating foreign patients on the NHS. The health secretary Jeremy Hunt even said himself the total was around £2billion back in 2013. It will be more than that this year.
I am not trying to belittle you but I just thought your £12m figure was a bit low so I looked it up.
The figure I used had come from the NHS's figures. It is quite possibly understated but it does seem as though the £2bn is a massive overestimate by the government with the intention of frightening the public and to force the issue. Now I'm not defending health tourism but even if the £2bn was accurate that is 2% of the budget. Again, small numbers when looking at the overall spend of the NHS.
Sorry @Addickted, what name did I call you? I think I got your post perfectly well. You referred to "perceptions". And I'm pointing out that those perceptions are either not in line with the facts, or are about issues which, in fact, are entirely within our powers to solve without leaving the EU. If you think I'm wrong, point out my mistakes. That's what the debate is about.
Nevertheless you want solutions from me. OK:
1. Benefits and health tourism. Implement a six month period in work before any newcomers can claim benefits.As they do in Poland !!!!! can be done tomorrow.
2. School spaces. Difficult. I'm not equipped to answer that one
3. Lack of jobs. Enough with "austerity". Invest in the country's infrastructure, and R&D. Fund it by taxing multinationals and super wealthy "immigrants" like Abramovic, fairly. Which by the way means getting more, smarter people into the Inland Revenue, to work on the big stuff instead of hassling Charlton Lifers for £500.
4. lack of wage rises. Not sure you can have a policy that guarantees wage rises across the board. But in a healthy growing economy, wages tend to rise. So see 3 above
5. Congested roads? Where to start..35 years of neglect...encourage people to choose their cars less by abandoning the current ridiculous form of rail and bus privatisation, invest in trams, create proper cycle lanes. Basically, do what the Germans do. Although they too have traffic congestion, its a fact of life, people like their cars.
6. Lack of adequate housing. Got to be careful here, others will have a clearer idea of what works, but generally we need a strategy for building more affordable housing, and one such strategy is to support cities such as Oxford and Cambridge for development, as Evan Davies suggested in his programme on London. And as per 3, proper taxes on the super rich foreign buyers of London property.
Best I can do off the cuff, but you asked, and I have answered.
Firstly, you called Farage a Charlatan - despite posting at 10.45 am "let's have less of the patronising and stereotyping".
Secondly, I don't want solutions from you, I want it from either the current Government or in a strong manifesto from the opposition. Neither of which people are even beginning to see.
1) 6 months of work before you get any kind of UK based benefit? Excellent idea that will lose UKIP some voters. So which manifesto is it in?
2) Lack of school spaces? I don't think the lack of spaces for kids is particularly the problem. The biggest issue I believe is the provision of extra services in time and money for those children who have English as a second language. Not sure on this one, perhaps the teachers on here could expand?
3) Lack of Jobs. Sorry, but disagree with you here. The UK economy appears to have turned a corner and is looking at currently being the most positive in Europe. That's no fluke. That is due to the strong austerity regime that was required after the financial colapse. If you look at all the Countries that took the austerity route, they seem to be pulling themselves round. Interesting to hear what Algarve has to say about his corner of Europe.
Austerity is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is what's required in the short to medium term. I believe that investment in infra structure is worth double every penny it costs. However, with consecutive Governments going down the PFI "off the books" method is madness.
4) Wages rises? Beginning to happen at last. Green shoots and all that. But there's no need to throw it away because of a few months of positive growth.
5) Roads. Well to be frank, you've no idea about our roads, unlike people who drive on them day in and day out in this country. The sheer volume of cars and vans on the road - particularly in the south East - from the 'new' EU members is staggering. And the idea of a cycle lane on the M25 is just ridiculous. :-).
6) Lack of adequate Housing? Despite promises of tens of thousands of new homes from the good and the great, it never appears to happen. The big developers tend to follow the market. They're moving now, but there is always lag.
The lack of Housing for rent however is a serious issue. There is a lot that can be done to improve this - mainly by assisting Councils and Housing Associations into flexibility in funding to build for themselves. And that includes houses for sale and shared ownership.
First thing I'd do is force all private landlords into a scheme that makes them comply with decent home standards, H&S legislation and fair rent policies - with the ability of a Local Authority to remove an indiviudal or company from letting properties. I'd also make compulsory purchase of empty homes easier to bring them back 'into the market'.
Your final point about the foreign 'super rich' I agree with holeheartedly. I'd also ensure the 50p tax rate is re-introduced (I don't care if the revenue raised is minimal - it's about preceptions again) and I'd go so far as to bring in a 'Super Tax' for those who earn significant sums - say £5m a year or more.
I'd also force HRMC to take on a whole team of people who are funded purely by the taxation they manage to get back from tax avoiders of all kinds - whether international corporations or individuals. I'm sure there are plenty of Lawyers and Accountants who would work for nothing as long as they were paid 10% of the monies they brought into the government coffers.
The health tourism issue that keeps being brought up is completely bogus. The NHS has estimated a total cost of foreign nationals claiming treatment in the UK at £12m. Now, in isolation this figure would seem a lot. The NHS budget is £108.9bn. Health tourism is such a tiny amount of the NHS budget that anyone claiming it needs addressing before much more pressing issues with the health service in this country is just wrong.
£108.9bn.........imagine what that could be spent on or the tax savings to the working population when the NHS is privatised.
Except that the government wouldn't get the revenues if the NHS was privatised Tax would have to go down to account for the fact that they no longer provided universal health care : and any tax savings I gained would have to be used on health insurance as there would be no National Health Service. IE No gain whatsoever
Your final point about the foreign 'super rich' I agree with holeheartedly. I'd also ensure the 50p tax rate is re-introduced (I don't care if the revenue raised is minimal - it's about preceptions again) and I'd go so far as to bring in a 'Super Tax' for those who earn significant sums - say £5m a year or more.
And this is the primary reason people are voting for UKIP. They perceive that there are problems created due to immigration and the EU regardless of what the facts tell them.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
UKIP is full of clowns and Farage's man of the people act is about as credible as that of Boris Johnson. Think they would undoubtedly pursue racist policies if they got into a position of power and that's what alarms me the most. The Tories and Labour have f***ed up big time over the last 15 years but why the electorate believes UKIP is the answer eludes me. Find their rise v depressing.
Even taking into consideration the general dissolutionment with politics that currently grips the country and the feeling that the three main parties need a good kicking. What astonishes and slightly frightens me is that so many people seem prepared to nail their colours to the mast of a party that really doesn't have any cohesive policies or more than a handful of candidates that are even remotely likely to be of the quality to sit it the Commons.
It might well be that UKIP wreak havoc next May and perhaps that is a good thing and is what is needed to shake up the creaking left and right parties but the thought of anything more is a terrifying prospect.
As I have said on here before the UKIP emergence put the Tory press in a very awkward position.
Normally they would spend the next 8 months hammering the shit out of Red Ed and Nick-Nice-but-Dim - although they are quite capable of fucking it themselves - but with UKIP rising then they now have to bash them up too.
The Tory press may attack Labour policies but they will have a massive attack on UKIP prospective MPs, you can bet your bollocks that CCHQ will be rummaging round the personal histories of every UKIP candidate.
They will, in fact, already be sitting on a huge trove of research on the UKIP people - but won't release it until at least April next year.
It would not surprise me if a smart guy like Lynton Crosby had even planted a couple of Manchurian candidates amongst the UKIP bunch and have them primed to explode next April.
What is this Tory press? not something that I recognise, Tory dominated newspapers are long gone, maybe you should read around.
Perhaps it is you who should "read around" since every national paper endorsed the Conservatives at the last election bar the Mirror (Labour) Guardian (LibDem) and Independent (neutral).
The biggest selling broadsheets, Times and Telegraph are solidly Tory as are the biggest selling tabloids, The Sun and Daily Mail - as is The Express.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't say I'm pro EU but I'm definitely not anti EU. The truth is that EU migrants into the UK are net contributors to the economy. Add to this that the majority of migrants are young, that helps with our aging population and the pressures that brings on the economy. Now, the real problem is what the government is doing, there is obviously a housing shortage, but why isn't the govt doing more? If migrants are net contributors what is the govt doing with that extra money?
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
No pro EU supporters and probably by definition anti UKIP supporters have responded. I would very much like to read their opinions to the above.
I wouldn't say I'm pro EU but I'm definitely not anti EU. The truth is that EU migrants into the UK are net contributors to the economy. Add to this that the majority of migrants are young, that helps with our aging population and the pressures that brings on the economy. Now, the real problem is what the government is doing, there is obviously a housing shortage, but why isn't the govt doing more? If migrants are net contributors what is the govt doing with that extra money?
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
How are government cuts increasing demand for overseas workers?
It should also be noted that France, who has pursued the kind of aggressively high tax policies that Ed Miliband and Labour endorse, has seen a massive brain drain of skilled workers, to the point that UK recruitment agents are reporting huge rises in skilled applicants with French as a first language.
Even taking into consideration the general dissolutionment with politics that currently grips the country and the feeling that the three main parties need a good kicking. What astonishes and slightly frightens me is that so many people seem prepared to nail their colours to the mast of a party that really doesn't have any cohesive policies or more than a handful of candidates that are even remotely likely to be of the quality to sit it the Commons.
It might well be that UKIP wreak havoc next May and perhaps that is a good thing and is what is needed to shake up the creaking left and right parties but the thought of anything more is a terrifying prospect.
As I have said on here before the UKIP emergence put the Tory press in a very awkward position.
Normally they would spend the next 8 months hammering the shit out of Red Ed and Nick-Nice-but-Dim - although they are quite capable of fucking it themselves - but with UKIP rising then they now have to bash them up too.
The Tory press may attack Labour policies but they will have a massive attack on UKIP prospective MPs, you can bet your bollocks that CCHQ will be rummaging round the personal histories of every UKIP candidate.
They will, in fact, already be sitting on a huge trove of research on the UKIP people - but won't release it until at least April next year.
It would not surprise me if a smart guy like Lynton Crosby had even planted a couple of Manchurian candidates amongst the UKIP bunch and have them primed to explode next April.
What is this Tory press? not something that I recognise, Tory dominated newspapers are long gone, maybe you should read around.
Perhaps it is you who should "read around" since every national paper endorsed the Conservatives at the last election bar the Mirror (Labour) Guardian (LibDem) and Independent (neutral).
The biggest selling broadsheets, Times and Telegraph are solidly Tory as are the biggest selling tabloids, The Sun and Daily Mail - as is The Express.
Comments
As the majority of UKIP policies are not known this is to their advantage in this case particularly when Labour's response to UKIP is 1 to smear the people in the party (exactly what Brown did to the woman at the last election) and 2 to patronise those voting for UKIP as they are doing it as a protest vote and will be back with Labour shortly
this was written eight years ago.....sound about right?!?
http://alt.clearing.avatar.narkive.com/9AUJ1fFj/david-icke-about-immigration-racism-in-the-u-k
The idea that Cameron can renegotiate terms with the EU is a fraud. Thatcher apparently only found out after signing the 1986 Single European Act that when you sign up to the "Acquis" (which means "what has been acquired"), the single market and the regulations are inseparable. You can't have a bit "that is not what has been acquired" it would allow every State to have its own acquis making the EU administratively ungovernable, and the EU is all about administering governance.
if UKIP was only supported by racists and homophobes etc. what does it say about a huge raft of our population? It is nonsense and the blog in the Independent linked to above is typical of where the establishment doesn't get it. Apparently we should laugh at UKIP and dismiss it because it harks back to "old-fashioned standards, to integrity, to post-war patriotism". Well news for the Independent, many normal working people who respect self-reliance think standards, integrity and patriotism are values to be respected, not mocked.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/british-millionaire-says-unfair-visa-ban-leaves-family-at-risk-in-warzone-9776451.html
2 of the many reasons visas have been refused are that he's not British which is truly odd as I doubt our family could be more British; and that he couldn't support his family in the UK, something which is again very odd as the headline of that article makes clear
this story may crop up again this week as many of our family live in Reckless's constituency
It is what it is.
Anyway I don't know about Algarve but I don't think the suggestion that I live in a happy clappy EU country that gives me rose tinted specs, is fair. The Czech republic has plenty of eurosceptics too. However living in another EU country (and living close to Germany) does give you another perspective on how it works. Most of all it allows you to directly compare the strengths and weaknesses of different countries' policies, which makes you slightly more suspicious of easy catch -all political "solutions".
Managing population growth in the UK is a big issue, I fully agree, and not one that most EU countries have to face, although a lot of southern EU countries are overwhelmed by illegals from Africa. Perhaps we should be both pressuring them and helping them to tighten their own borders, so that less of them end up in Calais.
I'd be interested in concrete examples you've got of how EU regulations affect you. Not just to have an argument. I definitely agree with you that the British legal tenets of precedent and proportionality are superior, and I miss them, when I run up against the law here. On the other hand a lot of EU regulations are based on directives, which actually have no legal precedent over UK law, and that's why for example many goods in the UK are still sold with a one year guarantee when the EU directive says it should be two years, as we discussed here a couple of weeks ago.
The "reasonable man" might think that if you buy a book from Amazon UK, and it is sent to your London address, the transaction happened in the UK, and the idea that Amazon should pay tax on it in Luxembourg is laughable. Unfortunately so far the great British legal system hasn't brought Amazon to court to pay up. But the EC is getting its teeth into them now, as it has successfully done already with several big multinationals. Your roaming charges are lower as a result, for example.
So I'd say that countries should keep the EU together while negotiating to preserve national superiority in key laws. Such negotiations require mature outward looking people who show that they actually want to be in the same club as their 27 counterparts. Farage clearly isn't such a person.
I am not trying to belittle you but I just thought your £12m figure was a bit low so I looked it up.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10395138/Foreign-patients-cost-NHS-2bn-a-year.html
Apart from the couple of guys bounding rascist around at anyone daring to diverge from their opinions - sorry gents but I think this sort of behaviour is actually driving people into the arms of UKIP as I think more and more people are getting fed up with the name calling when all they are doing is raising issues of concern to them (in my case the driving down of wages) - there are some really interesting points being made on both sides of the argument. And those points are being made by and large in a civilised manner which given the nature of the subject is to be applauded.Thanks to all concerned for doing so.
I just wish the arguments on all threads were conducted in this way!
All I would add now is that the Rochester by-election is going to be fascinating. And presumably there will be a good few Charlton fans who will be able to take part. Will be interesting to hear their thoughts as polling day approaches.
The figure I used had come from the NHS's figures. It is quite possibly understated but it does seem as though the £2bn is a massive overestimate by the government with the intention of frightening the public and to force the issue. Now I'm not defending health tourism but even if the £2bn was accurate that is 2% of the budget. Again, small numbers when looking at the overall spend of the NHS.
http://nhap.org/a-handy-factsheet-about-immigrants-and-health-tourism/
Secondly, I don't want solutions from you, I want it from either the current Government or in a strong manifesto from the opposition. Neither of which people are even beginning to see.
1) 6 months of work before you get any kind of UK based benefit? Excellent idea that will lose UKIP some voters. So which manifesto is it in?
2) Lack of school spaces? I don't think the lack of spaces for kids is particularly the problem. The biggest issue I believe is the provision of extra services in time and money for those children who have English as a second language. Not sure on this one, perhaps the teachers on here could expand?
3) Lack of Jobs. Sorry, but disagree with you here. The UK economy appears to have turned a corner and is looking at currently being the most positive in Europe. That's no fluke. That is due to the strong austerity regime that was required after the financial colapse. If you look at all the Countries that took the austerity route, they seem to be pulling themselves round. Interesting to hear what Algarve has to say about his corner of Europe.
Austerity is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is what's required in the short to medium term. I believe that investment in infra structure is worth double every penny it costs. However, with consecutive Governments going down the PFI "off the books" method is madness.
4) Wages rises? Beginning to happen at last. Green shoots and all that. But there's no need to throw it away because of a few months of positive growth.
5) Roads. Well to be frank, you've no idea about our roads, unlike people who drive on them day in and day out in this country. The sheer volume of cars and vans on the road - particularly in the south East - from the 'new' EU members is staggering. And the idea of a cycle lane on the M25 is just ridiculous. :-).
6) Lack of adequate Housing? Despite promises of tens of thousands of new homes from the good and the great, it never appears to happen. The big developers tend to follow the market. They're moving now, but there is always lag.
The lack of Housing for rent however is a serious issue. There is a lot that can be done to improve this - mainly by assisting Councils and Housing Associations into flexibility in funding to build for themselves. And that includes houses for sale and shared ownership.
First thing I'd do is force all private landlords into a scheme that makes them comply with decent home standards, H&S legislation and fair rent policies - with the ability of a Local Authority to remove an indiviudal or company from letting properties. I'd also make compulsory purchase of empty homes easier to bring them back 'into the market'.
Your final point about the foreign 'super rich' I agree with holeheartedly. I'd also ensure the 50p tax rate is re-introduced (I don't care if the revenue raised is minimal - it's about preceptions again) and I'd go so far as to bring in a 'Super Tax' for those who earn significant sums - say £5m a year or more.
I'd also force HRMC to take on a whole team of people who are funded purely by the taxation they manage to get back from tax avoiders of all kinds - whether international corporations or individuals. I'm sure there are plenty of Lawyers and Accountants who would work for nothing as long as they were paid 10% of the monies they brought into the government coffers.
A useful addition to the thread.
The Tories and Labour have f***ed up big time over the last 15 years but why the electorate believes UKIP is the answer eludes me.
Find their rise v depressing.
The biggest selling broadsheets, Times and Telegraph are solidly Tory as are the biggest selling tabloids, The Sun and Daily Mail - as is The Express.
In regards to the skilled people debate. The EU is providing us with many skilled workers in industries that are severely lacking in qualified British workers. The government can influence EU immigration, it isn't as open door as many will have you believe. Public policy can be hugely influential in decreasing demand for overseas skilled workers, yet our current government is intent on even further cuts that makes this difficult.
It should also be noted that France, who has pursued the kind of aggressively high tax policies that Ed Miliband and Labour endorse, has seen a massive brain drain of skilled workers, to the point that UK recruitment agents are reporting huge rises in skilled applicants with French as a first language.