thought the first half was both teams cancelling eachother out boro had 1 clear cut chance. boring first half. second half thought we excelled didnt give boro a sniff of the game kept retaining the ball and it kept coming back at boro moussa was excellent drove from the midfield into attack which is a what we need we looked like the only team who was gonna win that game second half unlucky with hitting the post and clearance of the line. wilsons shot was close. crowd were up at the end we could all smell the win, unlucky not to get it, but shows how far we have come pushing boro all the way and in the end they couldnt wait to get home.COYR
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
I think that's right - you could spend a lot of money and achieve very little. But at the same time I think Roland has probably had unrealistic expectations of the extra commercial revenue to be gained in the Championship, so he will end up having to fund a bigger loss (or selling players) - and he will lose more money if the team struggles to achieve its potential on the lack of a second striker because fans will get frustrated - one reason why I am interested in the explanation for yesterday's odd (real) gate.
Unfortunately, I think it's a Tucudean problem. If he was good enough we'd be potential play-off contenders. We may not want to spend big but we still need to find someone better.
Thanks Beds. Shame we couldn't get that winner in the second half then.
Another point that I haven't seen made is that two clean sheets in four games is good progress defensively after going the first five games without one. The defence are starting to gel perhaps?
First third of the first half was pretty even, middle bit Middlesborough looked like the home team, and the last third with lots of breaks in play. Both teams mostly kept their shape, Middlesborough had more efforts on target but nothing really clear cut. I can only remember one off target Charlton shot, wide by at least 10 yards. Gudmundsson's injury didn't look good. Hope it is only a twisted ankle, which can be painful as hell, but not not as bad as a twisted knee.
Second half Charlton came out stronger and Middlesborough looked more knackered as the the game went on. Moussa made Charlton look forward. I think he will be a good player for Charlton this season as he becomes more confident and composed. Bulot improved as the game went on, not sure where his best position is yet. Looked good out on the right. Bulot is not perfect but it is only his second game. The balance of the team looked better late on, but that may have just been due to Middlesborough tiring.
Charlton came close but couldn't quite get the winner. I liked Tucudean's gee up of the North stand though, and he has great desire to win. With a second decent striker, 2/3 as good as Vetekele Charlton would have won this game.
The ref was totally inconsistent with fouls, giving some to Middlesborough but ignoring a similar thing for Charlton. Adomah foul was follow through and deserved a straight red. Bamford deserved a booking for a trip down by the penalty area and then tried to get Bikey sent off. If Bikey had connected as other posters has said, Bamford would have needed a stretcher. Bikey had won the challenge and played the ball off. Bamford made a meal off it and went down holding his face. Real nasty play. Perhaps it was tiredness but Middlesborough's play became more cynical and dirty as the game wore on.
Only 4 mins of extra time ? Against Wolves there was 10 minutes. Down to 10 men and tiring, a couple more minutes may have allowed the winner. Typical of the poor refereeing performance.
The least entertaining of the home games so far. A clean sheet is good. Last season, Charlton may have lost the game. As many have said, a second decent striker, creative midfielder and a bit of pace down at least one wing would make the difference for Charlton to be in with a shout at the end of the season.
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Good post SBS and reflects the tension between what a commercial owner wants and what I'd like to see as a fan. Having seen the likes of Wolves and Watford this season and thinking of Norwich, Forest and to a lesser extent Ipswich, promotion is probably unrealistic and beyond our reach financially. I accept what the owner is doing even though I'd like to see us have a go at the play offs.
However even from a commercial perspective relying on Igor to score the goals doesn't make sense. If as I suspect we drift back to a lower mid-table league position, our attendances will continue to drop. We also run the risk of injury to our main players including Igor which could pull us towards the bottom 6.
In addition Igor's potential resale value will be limited as his goals dry up due to a lack of supply caused by a ponderous midfield and a lack of a decent winger. If we don't get a decent loan striker then looks more like stubbornness than good business sense to me.
Although two thirds of the match yesterday was boring, I still don't want to go back to last season.
Cousins showed JJ how to do it in centre mid. Buyens very dissapointing. George was bang up for it when he came on. The beast was awesome. Why did we play with one up front for so long? When George came on why did Igor drop so deep? Igor didn't win one of the balls launched at him so that tactic needs changing.
My son says there were cheerleaders on at half time.
Like most, I thought the 1st half was a non-event. Boro having the better of it, but didn't really do anything to cause us any problems. Second half started pretty much the same, but we grew into it and looked like there was only going to be one winner, so definately felt like points dropped.
Gotta say, I'm not a fan of playing with a lone striker. It could work with the right type of players behind him, but I don't think we have them. Stick to 4-4-2.
I was also surprised at the attendance, most noticibly in the NU, where there seemed large areas of empty seats.
I'm still enjoying it more than last season though, so a step in the right direction as far as I can see................
Decided to get the Football League paper as long as we don't lose. so far this season every sunday.
Players marks, highest were Solly and Wiggins with 8's (both had good games) Players lowest, Gud and Igor with 5's !!! Johann only played 1 half but always looks class on the ball. Igor seemed to be marked by two players, yet still battled away.
how you mark 22 players when you watch the game live and don't know who's who's is a mystery.
Was thinking in the week we must move on from Yann (the pain is still there) then reading the report in FLP, Wilson who replaced Grabban, said
"I've enjoyed playing with Yann and our partnership so far is good. he's got a physical presence which draws defenders to him and creates a bit more space for me."
Eddie Howe quote "Yann is a big player for us. we need him fit , firing and at the top of his game because if he is, we are a different side."
I'm trying to move on but while the number 9 shirt is gathering dust, it's very difficult. ( i know Yann wore 36 then 18 for two seasons)
Perhaps we should have brought Morrison on and pushed Bikey into the attack for the final 20 minutes. When teams like Middlesboro have given up and are hanging on, you sometimes need something a little "different" up front to finish them off?
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Good post SBS and reflects the tension between what a commercial owner wants and what I'd like to see as a fan. Having seen the likes of Wolves and Watford this season and thinking of Norwich, Forest and to a lesser extent Ipswich, promotion is probably unrealistic and beyond our reach financially. I accept what the owner is doing even though I'd like to see us have a go at the play offs.
However even from a commercial perspective relying on Igor to score the goals doesn't make sense. If as I suspect we drift back to a lower mid-table league position, our attendances will continue to drop. We also run the risk of injury to our main players including Igor which could pull us towards the bottom 6.
In addition Igor's potential resale value will be limited as his goals dry up due to a lack of supply caused by a ponderous midfield and a lack of a decent winger. If we don't get a decent loan striker then looks more like stubbornness than good business sense to me.
I understand the sentiment, but feel that the judgement is harsh.
It's possible that Roland Duchatelet will surprise us and spend money more aggressively than we expect or, alternatively, that he has underestimated both the strength of the Championship and the challenge he faces raising match day and commercial revenues, but with those caveats I'd suggest that his thinking is probably along the following lines;
1. The first priority is to be competitive in the Championship (and no more than that) while minimising losses (ideally breaking even). This may be optimistic, but it is not simply wishful thinking. There is a clear modus operandi. The plan is to develop young players and source from Europe and elsewhere (not the UK) where they are cheaper. In theory, at least, the network is a plus in this respect.
2. In the Championship, unlike in the Premier League, there is no financial advantage to finishing seventh over twenty first, for example. Attendances may be a little higher for a team winning and playing attractive football compared to one losing regularly, but probably not significantly so, at least not in the context of the cost of additional or better players.
For this reason there is little point in "pushing on" until the Play-Offs are a realistic prospect. While it's true that you can always get lucky, wishful thinking has a habit of proving to be expensive.
3. Building a side capable of securing a Play-Off place is likely to be expensive and, in any event, even if money is spent very wisely there is no guarantee of success. Ask David Whelan.
4. If 1) above can be achieved (and its looking good so far) the question, given 2) and 3) above, is when does it make sense to loosen the budget and "go for it"? Some owners might do so every season, but that's likely to be expensive and may not work anyway, not least since a number of Clubs have a significant financial advantage (parachute payments) which cannot now be overcome simply by spending yet more money (FFP).
5. I suspect that the Duchatelet plan is to stick to the disciplines established (recruit and develop young players with potential), be opportunistic (recruit players like Andy Delort only when they are available at the right price), be patient and wait for an opportunity to augment a very good squad which has been developed "organically". When that moment comes our owner might surprise us and spend very aggressively.
6. If this is broadly correct, then this season is a transitional one during which the objective is to consolidate while establishing the new model. Depending on how the squad develops (and results on the pitch) we might see more aggressive recruitment in January, the summer of 2015 or 2016 and so on.
7. In this operating model loans, except from the network, make little sense unless we are close to the Play-Offs (or relegation). A striker on loan would limit opportunities for Tucudean or Moussa, for example, wasting their wages and, more importantly, limiting their development and reducing their value as assets. Unless that new striker, who would cost money, of course, can transform the squad into genuine Play-Off contenders it makes more sense to be patient and wait for Tucudean or perhaps Ahearne-Grant to develop.
Frankly, I'm not sure how much business sense it makes to buy a Club in the Championship, or at least one without parachute payments, but if you're going to do so you need a plan. And all of Duchatelet's actions so far are consistent with a thoughtful and prudent long-term plan, albeit some of the execution was "off" in January.
As fans we just need to be patient. I'm not sure what more we can realistically expect.
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Good post SBS and reflects the tension between what a commercial owner wants and what I'd like to see as a fan. Having seen the likes of Wolves and Watford this season and thinking of Norwich, Forest and to a lesser extent Ipswich, promotion is probably unrealistic and beyond our reach financially. I accept what the owner is doing even though I'd like to see us have a go at the play offs.
However even from a commercial perspective relying on Igor to score the goals doesn't make sense. If as I suspect we drift back to a lower mid-table league position, our attendances will continue to drop. We also run the risk of injury to our main players including Igor which could pull us towards the bottom 6.
In addition Igor's potential resale value will be limited as his goals dry up due to a lack of supply caused by a ponderous midfield and a lack of a decent winger. If we don't get a decent loan striker then looks more like stubbornness than good business sense to me.
I understand the sentiment, but feel that the judgement is harsh.
It's possible that Roland Duchatelet will surprise us and spend money more aggressively than we expect or, alternatively, that he has underestimated both the strength of the Championship and the challenge he faces raising match day and commercial revenues, but with those caveats I'd suggest that his thinking is probably along the following lines;
1. The first priority is to be competitive in the Championship (and no more than that) while minimising losses (ideally breaking even). This may be optimistic, but it is not simply wishful thinking. There is a clear modus operandi. The plan is to develop young players and source from Europe and elsewhere (not the UK) where they are cheaper. In theory, at least, the network is a plus in this respect.
2. In the Championship, unlike in the Premier League, there is no financial advantage to finishing seventh over twenty first, for example. Attendances may be a little higher for a team winning and playing attractive football compared to one losing regularly, but probably not significantly so, at least not in the context of the cost of additional or better players.
For this reason there is little point in "pushing on" until the Play-Offs are a realistic prospect. While it's true that you can always get lucky, wishful thinking has a habit of proving to be expensive.
3. Building a side capable of securing a Play-Off place is likely to be expensive and, in any event, even if money is spent very wisely there is no guarantee of success. Ask David Whelan.
4. If 1) above can be achieved (and its looking good so far) the question, given 2) and 3) above, is when does it make sense to loosen the budget and "go for it"? Some owners might do so every season, but that's likely to be expensive and may not work anyway, not least since a number of Clubs have a significant financial advantage (parachute payments) which cannot now be overcome simply by spending yet more money (FFP).
5. I suspect that the Duchatelet plan is to stick to the disciplines established (recruit and develop young players with potential), be opportunistic (recruit players like Andy Delort only when they are available at the right price), be patient and wait for an opportunity to augment a very good squad which has been developed "organically". When that moment comes our owner might surprise us and spend very aggressively.
6. If this is broadly correct, then this season is a transitional one during which the objective is to consolidate while establishing the new model. Depending on how the squad develops (and results on the pitch) we might see more aggressive recruitment in January, the summer of 2015 or 2016 and so on.
7. In this operating model loans, except from the network, make little sense unless we are close to the Play-Offs (or relegation). A striker on loan would limit opportunities for Tucudean or Moussa, for example, wasting their wages and, more importantly, limiting their development and reducing their value as assets. Unless that new striker, who would cost money, of course, can transform the squad into genuine Play-Off contenders it makes more sense to be patient and wait for Tucudean or perhaps Ahearne-Grant to develop.
Frankly, I'm not sure how much business sense it makes to buy a Club in the Championship, or at least one without parachute payments, but if you're going to do so you need a plan. And all of Duchatelet's actions so far are consistent with a thoughtful and prudent long-term plan, albeit some of the execution was "off" in January.
As fans we just need to be patient. I'm not sure what more we can realistically expect.
A comprehensive & insightful summary of where we are & where we are likely to be going .
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
I think that's right - you could spend a lot of money and achieve very little. But at the same time I think Roland has probably had unrealistic expectations of the extra commercial revenue to be gained in the Championship, so he will end up having to fund a bigger loss (or selling players) - and he will lose more money if the team struggles to achieve its potential on the lack of a second striker because fans will get frustrated - one reason why I am interested in the explanation for yesterday's odd (real) gate.
Unfortunately, I think it's a Tucudean problem. If he was good enough we'd be potential play-off contenders. We may not want to spend big but we still need to find someone better.
CAFC are clearly managing expectations - however there was a slip in the comms after Brentford away when Bikey suggested the play-offs as an ambition - and who is going to argue with him?!
The irony is that CAFC have spent just one transfer fee rumoured to be €3m on Vetokele while acquiring ten new players and transforming the squad. Anyone talking about going for promotion this time, last April or May might have been branded a mindless optimist! But it was extremely clear that the new ownership was not settling for a gentle stroll in mid table for the next few years. All those players leaving and only two would help us where we are now.
And the CAFC losses have been reducing every year - player sales value is up, the cup run added a bonus and over the last two years high earning 25-32 year old players have left plus we are running a much thinner squad which is demonstrably better. It is very clear that several Championshipp clubs may have breached FFP loss limits of £8M last season. And that means they may well be excluded from the January window. Breaking even is not a sexy headline to bring in fans, but running a sustainable club with a regular supply of decent signings is!
The thing is that whether CAFC loses £1M a year or £5M a year makes no material difference to FFP, CAFC nor M. Duchatelet's wealth! However losing in the region of £10M a year AND failing to secure promotion renders the club worthless as we saw when Richard Murray relinquished control.
What is crystal clear is that M.Duchatelet's model regards the market for second tier strikers in the Championship as highly inflated. Not just Kermorgant but a fee was agreed early on for O'Grady over the summer but nothing on personal terms. And then Delort. And now Grant Holt shows up at Huddersfield.
We know there is a pan European scouting network which clearly has traction with leading clubs in countries - If CAFC is going to get another player (or three!) then he is likely to come from Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and is likely to have a potential resale value higher than the fees paid out. When they invest in players they mean invest and not throw money at players and agents which simply builds up the clubs debts. We might get them on a free next summer or we might have to pay €3m but I am certain that we will see new arrivals in the next two windows.
And that means our front six options will improve over time as the current players improve with age and experience plus strategic (not tactical) additions are made. When the time is right it is possible that M.Duchatelet and Meire will repeat the business of this summer and this might be paid for with departures, increased losses and/or increased gates?
It will take longer to persuade absent fans to return and new fans to come along but the longer we are in the top half, just one goal from the top six the more material there is for a DVD promotion... and we can all park the last seven years at the back of our minds! One might suggest they don't bother with all that effort and focus on promotion but the likes of Fulham made that mistake and had empty seats in the Premier League - to maximise our revenue in a 3-5 year time period means the basics need to be addressed whatever the performance on the pitch.
No one knows what is the precise meaning of M.Duchatelet's interpretation of break even but the simplest way is to get promoted and then relegated again as that puts an additional £125M revenue into the club over five years. The thing is that getting into the top six, staying there and losing in the play-offs is not a cheap journey - ask Brighton, Watford or other clubs. And it needs a squad with more experience to get there which is why I hope 2015-16 will be a great season for us since we will have 20 senior players a year older who have all played every championship clubat least twice.
So I wouldn't put too much pressure on for "jam today" in the form of loan players as this does not give the club room to breathe. Sure, signing Banford would have been great but there are several reasons why loans might not be the answer: the squad and management needs to prove itself and those leaving on loan or permanently next summer will be those who were given a chance but don't make it; Without injuries we have enough and we have winnable home games coming up - why take out loans for injuries and suspensions that have not yet occurred?! Keep the squad tight - easier to manage and develop and finally the reason given by the club - loans are not our players so why spend money on developing other peoples players? Sure people think that it is the magic ingredient to complete the formula but haven't we been down that route too many times already?
We were the width of a post from bouncing back into the top six yesterday. We need to see if this team can beat the likes of Birmingham and other bottom half teams at home. That makes more sense to me than asking to spend more money right now.
I like the term narrative and it will take more than five minutes to build a positive narrative around CAFC again. Perhaps fan organisations will be invited to assist? The main thing is that we have landed in the right half of the table again just eight months after a takeover and we have the youngest squad in the division. The toughest part will be to improve on our new look squad without upsetting the dynamic so I would prefer that the current team just look to prove that they are the ones for the job. The club needs to manage expectations just as it did in the first six months, albeit a completely different challenge to stay up, change managers (twice!) and get fans to renew their season tickets.
There is a downside in being patient in that we only have the services of Bulot, Ben Haim, Buyens and Wilson guaranteed for just this season. Whether they stay or go for 2015-16 we are going to be in a better place in May 2015 than we have been for a long, long time. Given that the best players at CAFC are on long term deals and that we are operating way below FFP limits I am comfortable looking at this as a two year push for the play-offs. So I will be happy to wait for the January window to then judge the ambition and pace of the journey ahead.
Not set up right at all in first half.Igor was basically on his own against two CBacks one could always drop deep. Thought Mousa made the differnace when he came on we had a differant shape and Igor had support. For all their posession in the 1st half Henderson didnt have to do anything. We had the better chances not sure we deserved to win it tho. Our midfield is to slow. Buyons is class when he has time but Jacko and him in the midfield allows their players to get at us to easily.
a word for the ref , that word would be c__t ---- has to be one of the worst (and we have seen some bad ones)
I accept that financial clout will in most cases decide who will be at the top of the championship. However, rumours were vetokele was £1 million. What's he now, would we sell for less than £2.5 Million ? I would say a number of our squad have a greater value than they did on arrival ? So that in some way negates the financial clout of other sides. We're Burnley big spenders last season, saying we can not be top six because of budget, is not a given, it's difficult, but it is sure as hell possible ! We are currently a strike partner for Vetokele short of being a contender . And yes it's frustrating that we could be asked to pay £3 Million for a player to do the job, that was being done by a player we sold for £300,000.
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
I think that's right - you could spend a lot of money and achieve very little. But at the same time I think Roland has probably had unrealistic expectations of the extra commercial revenue to be gained in the Championship, so he will end up having to fund a bigger loss (or selling players) - and he will lose more money if the team struggles to achieve its potential on the lack of a second striker because fans will get frustrated - one reason why I am interested in the explanation for yesterday's odd (real) gate.
Unfortunately, I think it's a Tucudean problem. If he was good enough we'd be potential play-off contenders. We may not want to spend big but we still need to find someone better.
CAFC are clearly managing expectations - however there was a slip in the comms after Brentford away when Bikey suggested the play-offs as an ambition - and who is going to argue with him?!
The irony is that CAFC have spent just one transfer fee rumoured to be €3m on Vetokele while acquiring ten new players and transforming the squad. Anyone talking about going for promotion this time, last April or May might have been branded a mindless optimist! But it was extremely clear that the new ownership was not settling for a gentle stroll in mid table for the next few years. All those players leaving and only two would help us where we are now.
And the CAFC losses have been reducing every year - player sales value is up, the cup run added a bonus and over the last two years high earning 25-32 year old players have left plus we are running a much thinner squad which is demonstrably better. It is very clear that several Championshipp clubs may have breached FFP loss limits of £8M last season. And that means they may well be excluded from the January window. Breaking even is not a sexy headline to bring in fans, but running a sustainable club with a regular supply of decent signings is!
The thing is that whether CAFC loses £1M a year or £5M a year makes no material difference to FFP, CAFC nor M. Duchatelet's wealth! However losing in the region of £10M a year AND failing to secure promotion renders the club worthless as we saw when Richard Murray relinquished control.
What is crystal clear is that M.Duchatelet's model regards the market for second tier strikers in the Championship as highly inflated. Not just Kermorgant but a fee was agreed early on for O'Grady over the summer but nothing on personal terms. And then Delort. And now Grant Holt shows up at Huddersfield.
We know there is a pan European scouting network which clearly has traction with leading clubs in countries - If CAFC is going to get another player (or three!) then he is likely to come from Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and is likely to have a potential resale value higher than the fees paid out. When they invest in players they mean invest and not throw money at players and agents which simply builds up the clubs debts. We might get them on a free next summer or we might have to pay €3m but I am certain that we will see new arrivals in the next two windows.
And that means our front six options will improve over time as the current players improve with age and experience plus strategic (not tactical) additions are made. When the time is right it is possible that M.Duchatelet and Meire will repeat the business of this summer and this might be paid for with departures, increased losses and/or increased gates?
It will take longer to persuade absent fans to return and new fans to come along but the longer we are in the top half, just one goal from the top six the more material there is for a DVD promotion... and we can all park the last seven years at the back of our minds! One might suggest they don't bother with all that effort and focus on promotion but the likes of Fulham made that mistake and had empty seats in the Premier League - to maximise our revenue in a 3-5 year time period means the basics need to be addressed whatever the performance on the pitch.
No one knows what is the precise meaning of M.Duchatelet's interpretation of break even but the simplest way is to get promoted and then relegated again as that puts an additional £125M revenue into the club over five years. The thing is that getting into the top six, staying there and losing in the play-offs is not a cheap journey - ask Brighton, Watford or other clubs. And it needs a squad with more experience to get there which is why I hope 2015-16 will be a great season for us since we will have 20 senior players a year older who have all played every championship clubat least twice.
So I wouldn't put too much pressure on for "jam today" in the form of loan players as this does not give the club room to breathe. Sure, signing Banford would have been great but there are several reasons why loans might not be the answer: the squad and management needs to prove itself and those leaving on loan or permanently next summer will be those who were given a chance but don't make it; Without injuries we have enough and we have winnable home games coming up - why take out loans for injuries and suspensions that have not yet occurred?! Keep the squad tight - easier to manage and develop and finally the reason given by the club - loans are not our players so why spend money on developing other peoples players? Sure people think that it is the magic ingredient to complete the formula but haven't we been down that route too many times already?
I like the term narrative and it will take more than five minutes to build a positive narrative around CAFC again. Perhaps fan organisations will be invited to assist? The main thing is that we have landed in the right half of the table again just eight months after a takeover and we have the youngest squad in the division. The toughest part will be to improve on our new look squad without upsetting the dynamic so I would prefer that the current team just look to prove that they are the ones for the job. The club needs to manage expectations just as it did in the first six months, albeit a completely different challenge to stay up, change managers (twice!) and get fans to renew their season tickets.
There is a downside in being patient in that we only have the services of Bulot, Ben Haim, Buyens and Wilson guaranteed for just this season. Whether they stay or go for 2015-16 we are going to be in a better place in May 2015 than we have been for a long, long time. Given that the best players at CAFC are on long term deals and that we are operating way below FFP limits I am comfortable looking at this as a two year push for the play-offs. So I will be happy to wait for the January window to then judge the ambition and pace of the journey ahead.
That is long bleedin' post (too bleedin' long) Only 30 or so characters short of the maximum allowed.
Can someone give me a summary of a paragraph ?
Seriously Red ? When a student, I bet that you found it difficult to keep essays within the word limit.
In her last interview Katrien said it would be a miracle if we finished in the top half of the table as we had a smaller budget than most of the championship. Righly or wrongly the aims of Roland seems to be for this season, is to finish say 13 to 15th and bring Gomez and Aherne-Grant on.
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
I think that's right - you could spend a lot of money and achieve very little. But at the same time I think Roland has probably had unrealistic expectations of the extra commercial revenue to be gained in the Championship, so he will end up having to fund a bigger loss (or selling players) - and he will lose more money if the team struggles to achieve its potential on the lack of a second striker because fans will get frustrated - one reason why I am interested in the explanation for yesterday's odd (real) gate.
Unfortunately, I think it's a Tucudean problem. If he was good enough we'd be potential play-off contenders. We may not want to spend big but we still need to find someone better.
CAFC are clearly managing expectations - however there was a slip in the comms after Brentford away when Bikey suggested the play-offs as an ambition - and who is going to argue with him?!
The irony is that CAFC have spent just one transfer fee rumoured to be €3m on Vetokele while acquiring ten new players and transforming the squad. Anyone talking about going for promotion this time, last April or May might have been branded a mindless optimist! But it was extremely clear that the new ownership was not settling for a gentle stroll in mid table for the next few years. All those players leaving and only two would help us where we are now.
And the CAFC losses have been reducing every year - player sales value is up, the cup run added a bonus and over the last two years high earning 25-32 year old players have left plus we are running a much thinner squad which is demonstrably better. It is very clear that several Championshipp clubs may have breached FFP loss limits of £8M last season. And that means they may well be excluded from the January window. Breaking even is not a sexy headline to bring in fans, but running a sustainable club with a regular supply of decent signings is!
The thing is that whether CAFC loses £1M a year or £5M a year makes no material difference to FFP, CAFC nor M. Duchatelet's wealth! However losing in the region of £10M a year AND failing to secure promotion renders the club worthless as we saw when Richard Murray relinquished control.
What is crystal clear is that M.Duchatelet's model regards the market for second tier strikers in the Championship as highly inflated. Not just Kermorgant but a fee was agreed early on for O'Grady over the summer but nothing on personal terms. And then Delort. And now Grant Holt shows up at Huddersfield.
We know there is a pan European scouting network which clearly has traction with leading clubs in countries - If CAFC is going to get another player (or three!) then he is likely to come from Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and is likely to have a potential resale value higher than the fees paid out. When they invest in players they mean invest and not throw money at players and agents which simply builds up the clubs debts. We might get them on a free next summer or we might have to pay €3m but I am certain that we will see new arrivals in the next two windows.
And that means our front six options will improve over time as the current players improve with age and experience plus strategic (not tactical) additions are made. When the time is right it is possible that M.Duchatelet and Meire will repeat the business of this summer and this might be paid for with departures, increased losses and/or increased gates?
It will take longer to persuade absent fans to return and new fans to come along but the longer we are in the top half, just one goal from the top six the more material there is for a DVD promotion... and we can all park the last seven years at the back of our minds! One might suggest they don't bother with all that effort and focus on promotion but the likes of Fulham made that mistake and had empty seats in the Premier League - to maximise our revenue in a 3-5 year time period means the basics need to be addressed whatever the performance on the pitch.
No one knows what is the precise meaning of M.Duchatelet's interpretation of break even but the simplest way is to get promoted and then relegated again as that puts an additional £125M revenue into the club over five years. The thing is that getting into the top six, staying there and losing in the play-offs is not a cheap journey - ask Brighton, Watford or other clubs. And it needs a squad with more experience to get there which is why I hope 2015-16 will be a great season for us since we will have 20 senior players a year older who have all played every championship clubat least twice.
So I wouldn't put too much pressure on for "jam today" in the form of loan players as this does not give the club room to breathe. Sure, signing Banford would have been great but there are several reasons why loans might not be the answer: the squad and management needs to prove itself and those leaving on loan or permanently next summer will be those who were given a chance but don't make it; Without injuries we have enough and we have winnable home games coming up - why take out loans for injuries and suspensions that have not yet occurred?! Keep the squad tight - easier to manage and develop and finally the reason given by the club - loans are not our players so why spend money on developing other peoples players? Sure people think that it is the magic ingredient to complete the formula but haven't we been down that route too many times already?
I like the term narrative and it will take more than five minutes to build a positive narrative around CAFC again. Perhaps fan organisations will be invited to assist? The main thing is that we have landed in the right half of the table again just eight months after a takeover and we have the youngest squad in the division. The toughest part will be to improve on our new look squad without upsetting the dynamic so I would prefer that the current team just look to prove that they are the ones for the job. The club needs to manage expectations just as it did in the first six months, albeit a completely different challenge to stay up, change managers (twice!) and get fans to renew their season tickets.
There is a downside in being patient in that we only have the services of Bulot, Ben Haim, Buyens and Wilson guaranteed for just this season. Whether they stay or go for 2015-16 we are going to be in a better place in May 2015 than we have been for a long, long time. Given that the best players at CAFC are on long term deals and that we are operating way below FFP limits I am comfortable looking at this as a two year push for the play-offs. So I will be happy to wait for the January window to then judge the ambition and pace of the journey ahead.
That is long bleedin' post (too bleedin' long) Only 30 or so characters short of the maximum allowed.
It makes me laugh really. If you look at the pre match predictions thread there was a lot of negativity and many people were saying that Boro were the team to watch and we'd be lucky to come away with anything. Then, we contain that team in the first half and come out in the 2nd with a certain plan (yes, Bob did work on our recent inability to push on in the 2nd half) and could/should have won the game in the end. And, people are still moaning. I just don't get it. What more could we have done? We almost won the game against the supposed best team in the league (according to our own pre-match thread). We're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't it seems.
Look at where we are now compared to where we were this time last year. RD has a plan. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that. t think many should get back to SUPPORTING the team in the right way and get off the negative, unrealistic bandwagon. At the end of the day the negativity does not help Charlton.
I'm sure this is hot air to a lot on here. Misery loves misery it seems.
Comments
This feels out of kilter with quite a few fans who want as to go for it.
Funds available In Jan if still in leading pack, may be too late if teams keep double marking Igor.
The paradox of yesterday was in negating their attacks, we nullified our own forward play at least until the last 25 mins.
Danny Graham, Darren Bent, or any recent prem player would have to take such a drop in wages, unless their clubs paid a % that i can't see this happening.
Unfortunately, I think it's a Tucudean problem. If he was good enough we'd be potential play-off contenders. We may not want to spend big but we still need to find someone better.
Another point that I haven't seen made is that two clean sheets in four games is good progress defensively after going the first five games without one. The defence are starting to gel perhaps?
Second half Charlton came out stronger and Middlesborough looked more knackered as the the game went on. Moussa made Charlton look forward. I think he will be a good player for Charlton this season as he becomes more confident and composed. Bulot improved as the game went on, not sure where his best position is yet. Looked good out on the right. Bulot is not perfect but it is only his second game. The balance of the team looked better late on, but that may have just been due to Middlesborough tiring.
Charlton came close but couldn't quite get the winner. I liked Tucudean's gee up of the North stand though, and he has great desire to win. With a second decent striker, 2/3 as good as Vetekele Charlton would have won this game.
The ref was totally inconsistent with fouls, giving some to Middlesborough but ignoring a similar thing for Charlton. Adomah foul was follow through and deserved a straight red. Bamford deserved a booking for a trip down by the penalty area and then tried to get Bikey sent off. If Bikey had connected as other posters has said, Bamford would have needed a stretcher. Bikey had won the challenge and played the ball off. Bamford made a meal off it and went down holding his face. Real nasty play. Perhaps it was tiredness but Middlesborough's play became more cynical and dirty as the game wore on.
Only 4 mins of extra time ? Against Wolves there was 10 minutes. Down to 10 men and tiring, a couple more minutes may have allowed the winner. Typical of the poor refereeing performance.
The least entertaining of the home games so far. A clean sheet is good. Last season, Charlton may have lost the game. As many have said, a second decent striker, creative midfielder and a bit of pace down at least one wing would make the difference for Charlton to be in with a shout at the end of the season.
2 teams who didn't want to lose and weren't willing to risk anything to go looking for the winner. This turned the crowd quiet and became very dull.
However after that incident became really enjoyable, with us trying to get the winner.
Thought we deserved a point but feels like 2 points dropped with the chances we had at the end to get the winner.
Was nice to see Solly with the captain armband at the end as well.
However even from a commercial perspective relying on Igor to score the goals doesn't make sense. If as I suspect we drift back to a lower mid-table league position, our attendances will continue to drop. We also run the risk of injury to our main players including Igor which could pull us towards the bottom 6.
In addition Igor's potential resale value will be limited as his goals dry up due to a lack of supply caused by a ponderous midfield and a lack of a decent winger. If we don't get a decent loan striker then looks more like stubbornness than good business sense to me.
Although two thirds of the match yesterday was boring, I still don't want to go back to last season.
Second half much better and very good last 10.
Cousins showed JJ how to do it in centre mid. Buyens very dissapointing. George was bang up for it when he came on. The beast was awesome. Why did we play with one up front for so long? When George came on why did Igor drop so deep? Igor didn't win one of the balls launched at him so that tactic needs changing.
My son says there were cheerleaders on at half time.
Gotta say, I'm not a fan of playing with a lone striker. It could work with the right type of players behind him, but I don't think we have them. Stick to 4-4-2.
I was also surprised at the attendance, most noticibly in the NU, where there seemed large areas of empty seats.
I'm still enjoying it more than last season though, so a step in the right direction as far as I can see................
Players marks, highest were Solly and Wiggins with 8's (both had good games)
Players lowest, Gud and Igor with 5's !!! Johann only played 1 half but always looks class on the ball.
Igor seemed to be marked by two players, yet still battled away.
how you mark 22 players when you watch the game live and don't know who's who's is a mystery.
Was thinking in the week we must move on from Yann (the pain is still there)
then reading the report in FLP, Wilson who replaced Grabban, said
"I've enjoyed playing with Yann and our partnership so far is good. he's got a physical presence which draws defenders to him and creates a bit more space for me."
Eddie Howe quote
"Yann is a big player for us. we need him fit , firing and at the top of his game because if he is, we are a different side."
I'm trying to move on but while the number 9 shirt is gathering dust, it's very difficult.
( i know Yann wore 36 then 18 for two seasons)
It's possible that Roland Duchatelet will surprise us and spend money more aggressively than we expect or, alternatively, that he has underestimated both the strength of the Championship and the challenge he faces raising match day and commercial revenues, but with those caveats I'd suggest that his thinking is probably along the following lines;
1. The first priority is to be competitive in the Championship (and no more than that) while minimising losses (ideally breaking even). This may be optimistic, but it is not simply wishful thinking. There is a clear modus operandi. The plan is to develop young players and source from Europe and elsewhere (not the UK) where they are cheaper. In theory, at least, the network is a plus in this respect.
2. In the Championship, unlike in the Premier League, there is no financial advantage to finishing seventh over twenty first, for example. Attendances may be a little higher for a team winning and playing attractive football compared to one losing regularly, but probably not significantly so, at least not in the context of the cost of additional or better players.
For this reason there is little point in "pushing on" until the Play-Offs are a realistic prospect. While it's true that you can always get lucky, wishful thinking has a habit of proving to be expensive.
3. Building a side capable of securing a Play-Off place is likely to be expensive and, in any event, even if money is spent very wisely there is no guarantee of success. Ask David Whelan.
4. If 1) above can be achieved (and its looking good so far) the question, given 2) and 3) above, is when does it make sense to loosen the budget and "go for it"? Some owners might do so every season, but that's likely to be expensive and may not work anyway, not least since a number of Clubs have a significant financial advantage (parachute payments) which cannot now be overcome simply by spending yet more money (FFP).
5. I suspect that the Duchatelet plan is to stick to the disciplines established (recruit and develop young players with potential), be opportunistic (recruit players like Andy Delort only when they are available at the right price), be patient and wait for an opportunity to augment a very good squad which has been developed "organically". When that moment comes our owner might surprise us and spend very aggressively.
6. If this is broadly correct, then this season is a transitional one during which the objective is to consolidate while establishing the new model. Depending on how the squad develops (and results on the pitch) we might see more aggressive recruitment in January, the summer of 2015 or 2016 and so on.
7. In this operating model loans, except from the network, make little sense unless we are close to the Play-Offs (or relegation). A striker on loan would limit opportunities for Tucudean or Moussa, for example, wasting their wages and, more importantly, limiting their development and reducing their value as assets. Unless that new striker, who would cost money, of course, can transform the squad into genuine Play-Off contenders it makes more sense to be patient and wait for Tucudean or perhaps Ahearne-Grant to develop.
Frankly, I'm not sure how much business sense it makes to buy a Club in the Championship, or at least one without parachute payments, but if you're going to do so you need a plan. And all of Duchatelet's actions so far are consistent with a thoughtful and prudent long-term plan, albeit some of the execution was "off" in January.
As fans we just need to be patient. I'm not sure what more we can realistically expect.
Don't you think we should be better than that?
Many thanks for that, Roland.
:-)
I also won't say what I think of Golfie & Viewfinfer's posts.
The irony is that CAFC have spent just one transfer fee rumoured to be €3m on Vetokele while acquiring ten new players and transforming the squad. Anyone talking about going for promotion this time, last April or May might have been branded a mindless optimist! But it was extremely clear that the new ownership was not settling for a gentle stroll in mid table for the next few years. All those players leaving and only two would help us where we are now.
And the CAFC losses have been reducing every year - player sales value is up, the cup run added a bonus and over the last two years high earning 25-32 year old players have left plus we are running a much thinner squad which is demonstrably better. It is very clear that several Championshipp clubs may have breached FFP loss limits of £8M last season. And that means they may well be excluded from the January window. Breaking even is not a sexy headline to bring in fans, but running a sustainable club with a regular supply of decent signings is!
The thing is that whether CAFC loses £1M a year or £5M a year makes no material difference to FFP, CAFC nor M. Duchatelet's wealth! However losing in the region of £10M a year AND failing to secure promotion renders the club worthless as we saw when Richard Murray relinquished control.
What is crystal clear is that M.Duchatelet's model regards the market for second tier strikers in the Championship as highly inflated. Not just Kermorgant but a fee was agreed early on for O'Grady over the summer but nothing on personal terms. And then Delort. And now Grant Holt shows up at Huddersfield.
We know there is a pan European scouting network which clearly has traction with leading clubs in countries - If CAFC is going to get another player (or three!) then he is likely to come from Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium and is likely to have a potential resale value higher than the fees paid out. When they invest in players they mean invest and not throw money at players and agents which simply builds up the clubs debts. We might get them on a free next summer or we might have to pay €3m but I am certain that we will see new arrivals in the next two windows.
And that means our front six options will improve over time as the current players improve with age and experience plus strategic (not tactical) additions are made. When the time is right it is possible that M.Duchatelet and Meire will repeat the business of this summer and this might be paid for with departures, increased losses and/or increased gates?
It will take longer to persuade absent fans to return and new fans to come along but the longer we are in the top half, just one goal from the top six the more material there is for a DVD promotion... and we can all park the last seven years at the back of our minds!
One might suggest they don't bother with all that effort and focus on promotion but the likes of Fulham made that mistake and had empty seats in the Premier League - to maximise our revenue in a 3-5 year time period means the basics need to be addressed whatever the performance on the pitch.
No one knows what is the precise meaning of M.Duchatelet's interpretation of break even but the simplest way is to get promoted and then relegated again as that puts an additional £125M revenue into the club over five years. The thing is that getting into the top six, staying there and losing in the play-offs is not a cheap journey - ask Brighton, Watford or other clubs. And it needs a squad with more experience to get there which is why I hope 2015-16 will be a great season for us since we will have 20 senior players a year older who have all played every championship clubat least twice.
So I wouldn't put too much pressure on for "jam today" in the form of loan players as this does not give the club room to breathe. Sure, signing Banford would have been great but there are several reasons why loans might not be the answer: the squad and management needs to prove itself and those leaving on loan or permanently next summer will be those who were given a chance but don't make it; Without injuries we have enough and we have winnable home games coming up - why take out loans for injuries and suspensions that have not yet occurred?! Keep the squad tight - easier to manage and develop and finally the reason given by the club - loans are not our players so why spend money on developing other peoples players? Sure people think that it is the magic ingredient to complete the formula but haven't we been down that route too many times already?
We were the width of a post from bouncing back into the top six yesterday. We need to see if this team can beat the likes of Birmingham and other bottom half teams at home. That makes more sense to me than asking to spend more money right now.
I like the term narrative and it will take more than five minutes to build a positive narrative around CAFC again. Perhaps fan organisations will be invited to assist? The main thing is that we have landed in the right half of the table again just eight months after a takeover and we have the youngest squad in the division. The toughest part will be to improve on our new look squad without upsetting the dynamic so I would prefer that the current team just look to prove that they are the ones for the job. The club needs to manage expectations just as it did in the first six months, albeit a completely different challenge to stay up, change managers (twice!) and get fans to renew their season tickets.
There is a downside in being patient in that we only have the services of Bulot, Ben Haim, Buyens and Wilson guaranteed for just this season. Whether they stay or go for 2015-16 we are going to be in a better place in May 2015 than we have been for a long, long time. Given that the best players at CAFC are on long term deals and that we are operating way below FFP limits I am comfortable looking at this as a two year push for the play-offs. So I will be happy to wait for the January window to then judge the ambition and pace of the journey ahead.
Thought Mousa made the differnace when he came on we had a differant shape and Igor had support.
For all their posession in the 1st half Henderson didnt have to do anything.
We had the better chances not sure we deserved to win it tho.
Our midfield is to slow. Buyons is class when he has time but Jacko and him in the midfield allows their players to get at us to easily.
a word for the ref , that word would be c__t ---- has to be one of the worst (and we have seen some bad ones)
Can someone give me a summary of a paragraph ?
Seriously Red ? When a student, I bet that you found it difficult to keep essays within the word limit.
Yes his comments may be a tad long but do you not find what he says valid?
Look at where we are now compared to where we were this time last year. RD has a plan. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that. t think many should get back to SUPPORTING the team in the right way and get off the negative, unrealistic bandwagon. At the end of the day the negativity does not help Charlton.
I'm sure this is hot air to a lot on here. Misery loves misery it seems.