Does a Belgium club even make that kind of money for getting in the group stages of the Champions League, thought it was a fraction of that.
Nope, just checked, Anderlecht only made €12m from the CL groups last year, Basel made more
I think prize money in the Champions League is also dished out based on how many games you win... (Am sure it was broken down in a Charlton programme the year we finished 7th I think)
One of the ways in which clubs and agents inflate the prices of footballers is by the use of social media. A price gets put out there, fans pick up on it, lazy journalists assume that the fans got it from a proper source, and all of a sudden it is generally accepted that Andy Delort is "worth" £4m. That can work with gullible or desperate clubs. It also seems to work with Transfermarkt; it seems to use publicly quoted sources for fees paid. Thus a semi-official database helps to ramp up the value of players.
It is separately true that anyway these headline figures bear no relation to the actual money that changes hands initially. I know that and I am sure you do, because we have both been taught this by the same person. I simply wished to try and share that with those that at least don't want to get carried away. I did not say "how the fee would be structured". Several times I said that I don't believe we will sign him, and I still don't. I do think it reasonable to point out that whoever may buy him, the actual initial cheque will be nowhere near what the Tours chairman talks about because it never is. The main reason why I made that point is that a lot of people on here got excited about him because they saw the headline figures being attached to him and assumed he must be that good. Then they get upset that we might lose him. This is all part of the process i mentioned in my first para. I simply think people should be warned about what is going on and how they are being used.
Does a Belgium club even make that kind of money for getting in the group stages of the Champions League, thought it was a fraction of that.
Nope, just checked, Anderlecht only made €12m from the CL groups last year, Basel made more
the guy from Grant Thornton constructed his figures by adding together the prize money and the TV rights money from the screening of the games. Thats why there is the variation between Arsenal and Celtic. You can hear him if you go to the R4 Today programme and pick up the 08.25 sport bulletin. He is a regular on the programme.
Mind you the prize money is partly results based within the groups too, so I wonder how he factored in the likely relative performance of Arsenal and Celtic if they both had got there.
At min. I would guess Standard have kissed goodbye to £15m. However if Roland didn't budget for them to get there in the first place, then there is far less to worry about.
Personally I believe that the more money comes in to Staprix, the better for us, and vice versa. But that doesn't try to guess what RD's plans are for the various clubs.
The TV market pools for England, Scotland and Belgium are massively different, the English clubs will be sharing close to Billion from BT in the coming year. I heard the guy from Grant Thornton, but the TV money isn't distributed as simply as you've made out.
The Tours chairman is obviously desperate for the cash as he's letting Delort agree terms with all and sundry before being anywhere near agreeing a deal with a Club. If you were us, Wigan, Brentford etc etc you will know this and wait until an hour or so before the window closes before upping your offer slightly knowing Tours have no choice other than to accept. The upside being terms with the player already agreed so it can be concluded quickly. This is a game of who blinks first and it's going to go right down to the wire. For some reason I'm still confident we will get our man, I mean does the Eurostar run from Wigan?
One of the ways in which clubs and agents inflate the prices of footballers
But this is where your argument falls down.
The real transfer dealing goes on regardless of social media pricing or even that bible of truth Transfermarket.com.
Agents, managers, CEOs etc doing the deals really don't pick up the paper and say "Carlos Kickaball is valued at £10m by Charlton Life/Twitter/Sky" so that must be the real price.
They don't because they know from experience that prices and wages quoted in papers are nearly always miles away from reality or quote total costs rather than money down/installments/contingency payments/bonuses.
Most people inside football are a little more savvy than they are given credit for. Doesn't mean that don't make mistakes but every deal is a good deal until it goes wrong.
And I think many fans realise that too. Sure there are others who lap up what is on twitter or Sky as "real". Someone on this thread read the tweet saying delort has agreed a deal as delort had signed a deal. That is deliberate from the Sky journo but many fans can tell the difference. If they can't then more fool them.
The TV market pools for England, Scotland and Belgium are massively different, the English clubs will be sharing close to Billion from BT in the coming year. I heard the guy from Grant Thornton, but the TV money isn't distributed as simply as you've made out.
That is an interesting document and I don't pretend to have knowledge of this. I would like to have, so thanks for posting it.
I was simply passing on what I understood him to mean. I supposed that the TV money Celtic would get would be roughly what a Belgium club would get - or perhaps less, given the TV audience size.
The Tours chairman is obviously desperate for the cash as he's letting Delort agree terms with all and sundry before being anywhere near agreeing a deal with a Club. If you were us, Wigan, Brentford etc etc you will know this and wait until an hour or so before the window closes before upping your offer slightly knowing Tours have no choice other than to accept. The upside being terms with the player already agreed so it can be concluded quickly. This is a game of who blinks first and it's going to go right down to the wire. For some reason I'm still confident we will get our man, I mean does the Eurostar run from Wigan?
I think you are spot on. This is a poker game and we've hit the river.
The real transfer dealing goes on regardless of social media pricing or even that bible of truth Transfermarket.com.
Agents, managers, CEOs etc doing the deals really don't pick up the paper and say "Carlos Kickaball is valued at £10m by Charlton Life/Twitter/Sky" so that must be the real price.
Of course I know that is true. However I believe that it creates upward pressure, in much the same way as the stock market price of companies is inflated despite the alleged cold analytical genius of all those who make a living by supposedly assessing the true value of such companies.
My point has always been that we will never offer anywhere near the alleged valuation of the Tours chairman, nor will we pay an overall figure upfront. And if others do, good luck to them, because based on the very limited rational information available to us, he does not seem to be worth it.
If we do buy him, I trust the club to have done a good deal, and will support him, so long as his on pitch attitude is good.
The real transfer dealing goes on regardless of social media pricing or even that bible of truth Transfermarket.com.
Agents, managers, CEOs etc doing the deals really don't pick up the paper and say "Carlos Kickaball is valued at £10m by Charlton Life/Twitter/Sky" so that must be the real price.
Of course I know that is true. However I believe that it creates upward pressure, in much the same way as the stock market price of companies is inflated despite the alleged cold analytical genius of all those who make a living by supposedly assessing the true value of such companies.
My point has always been that we will never offer anywhere near the alleged valuation of the Tours chairman, nor will we pay an overall figure upfront. And if others do, good luck to them, because based on the very limited rational information available to us, he does not seem to be worth it.
If we do buy him, I trust the club to have done a good deal, and will support him, so long as his on pitch attitude is good.
Over and out.
The stock market is totally different in that there are 1000s and 1000s of people buying and selling millions of shares in one company.
There is only one share in Andy Delort Ltd and only one seller. And only one, two or three potential buyers or even none if the Tours owner gets it wrong.
The upward pressure is a myth and is shown as such by the near universal use of "undisclosed fee".
There maybe a few Chairman who want to say they paid £10m when in reality they paid £4 down with another £6m based on promotion, caps, etc etc but I don't think Roland is one of them.
I think we're just being used to get his wages/ signing on fee upped, if Wigan want him , they'll get him as their wage budget will be bigger than ours, and they are just about to offload one of their players for 6 - 7 million.
Actually there are some very solid examples - recent and historic - of Charlton receiving most or all of the fee for a player up front whatever the tablets of stone passed down by Richard Murray might say. And these were in precisely the situation that the selling club - Charlton - was in financial distress. Robert Lee and Anthony Barness would be historic examples, Carl Jenkinson a more recent one.
Actually there are some very solid examples - recent and historic - of Charlton receiving most or all of the fee for a player up front whatever the tablets of stone passed down by Richard Murray might say. And these were in precisely the situation that the selling club - Charlton - was in financial distress. Robert Lee and Anthony Barness would be historic examples, Carl Jenkinson a more recent one.
I've not posted on this before now, but I would suggest that if the player has a preference then he will get what he wants. The club, clearly, need to sell and they would prefer to sell to the highest bidder, but if the highest bidder cannot agree terms with the player - i.e. he will only go to one of the clubs, then that club will get him for as much as they are willing to pay.
The alternative is that FC Tours keep him but I am led to believe (all be it only from hearsay on here) that they need the money to pay a tax bill.
Thus the player will decide where he goes. Sure he would rather have more money, and Wigan will have shown him nice areas up there (there much be one or two) for him to live, but the logistics of EuroStar might be enough to make his mind up. I mean, he can live in many different places that are an easy drive to both Sparrows Lane and Ebbsfleet. That would have made a massive difference to me at his age.
However, I agree with those on here that are indifferent as to if he comes or not. Either way his (and his father's) 'press' releases have only increased the hype and will ensure that, wherever he goes, he will be under more scrutiny and greater pressure. As a parent myself I'm not sure I would want to put that kind of pressure on my son for a few quid more in his pocket. The Championship is a tough league, even harder for young foreign players. It is still possible that he will not be suited to the English game and by the time the circus has finished if he takes a while to settle in it could make his life very difficult.
I would have thought that the best plan of action would have been for the young man and his father to keep their mouths shut until the signing. Vetokele, for example, has done his talking on the pitch. We were excited by the prospect of the potential fee (again could have been made up) but he was given a pressure free run at it, and he has delivered. I'm not silly enough to think that all players don't whore themselves about for more money but those with class don't brag about it!
I think we're just being used to get his wages/ signing on fee upped, if Wigan want him , they'll get him as their wage budget will be bigger than ours, and they are just about to offload one of their players for 6 - 7 million.
I also think we don't want to get involved in a bidding war. We have parameters that have been set in which we have to work to. As I understand it, we'd agreed personal terms with Delort, but we're standing firm on a transfer fee that doesn't suit Tours. Now other clubs have come in for him, the Tours chairman has done his job, pushed the price up and is hoping we'll return with a counter offer. I doubt ours will match Wigan's as their budget is bigger and may be about to recoup that for McArthur. I know they're also looking at a hefty chunk for Forshaw of Brentford, so that may mean we still have a shout. However at this stage I think RD is standing firm, and if Wigan offer more then so be it. Onto the replacement I would hope
I think a lot of the hype started in the first place because it looked like we were beating a number of clubs to the signing of a wanted player, a rarity for us. All the hype was created by people on here and twitter (myself included) I don't get the bitter comments.
I know it's a bit random and comments like this will probably be irrelevant in a few days but we have the number 9 shirt vacant and Wigan don't as they have signed Riera already. We are also in a better location for him as a few of you have said, these little things could add up and make us his preferred choice. Ultimately though it is down to the fee, probabaly gonna go right down to the wire.
Actually there are some very solid examples - recent and historic - of Charlton receiving most or all of the fee for a player up front whatever the tablets of stone passed down by Richard Murray might say. And these were in precisely the situation that the selling club - Charlton - was in financial distress. Robert Lee and Anthony Barness would be historic examples, Carl Jenkinson a more recent one.
Evidence?
In the cases of Lee and Barness I have recently revisited them for the new edition of Battle for The Valley - I was very much in the loop as Charlton reporter of the Mercury and got the detail first hand from Murray/Simons at the time. They were at great pains to show they had got the best available deals, which some questioned. I think they also made public statements about the fees being all up front, but it's not in doubt either way. It was well known. I'll say more about Jenkinson in due course, because it's an interesting tale in its own right.
Tours have announced in an official statement that they have received a better offer from an English club not Wigan for Andy Delort. #WAFC
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I do hope we are well shot of this and have moved on
This is just more of the same kind of "We've been offered more from someone else so you'd better up your price!" rubbish. They might have received a better offer, they might not, but it is so predictable these days that football clubs are becoming almost as trustworthy as Estate Agents.
If true, I hope we're the club who've made a "better offer".
For all we know Wigan could've been offering £1.5m with addons totaling to £3m and the other English club could have offered £2.5m upfront.
Just because there's been an improved offer doesn't mean it's a higher total amount, it could just mean Tours prefer the structure of the payment with more guarantees or fewer installments.
Comments
Anderlecht only got the one point whilst Basel won two matches (from the Group Stages) so could be one of the reasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League#Prize_money)
It is separately true that anyway these headline figures bear no relation to the actual money that changes hands initially. I know that and I am sure you do, because we have both been taught this by the same person. I simply wished to try and share that with those that at least don't want to get carried away. I did not say "how the fee would be structured". Several times I said that I don't believe we will sign him, and I still don't. I do think it reasonable to point out that whoever may buy him, the actual initial cheque will be nowhere near what the Tours chairman talks about because it never is. The main reason why I made that point is that a lot of people on here got excited about him because they saw the headline figures being attached to him and assumed he must be that good. Then they get upset that we might lose him. This is all part of the process i mentioned in my first para. I simply think people should be warned about what is going on and how they are being used.
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Finance/02/11/95/44/2119544_DOWNLOAD.pdf
The Danish TV market pool is worth more than a Belgium clubs payout
Mind you the prize money is partly results based within the groups too, so I wonder how he factored in the likely relative performance of Arsenal and Celtic if they both had got there.
At min. I would guess Standard have kissed goodbye to £15m. However if Roland didn't budget for them to get there in the first place, then there is far less to worry about.
Personally I believe that the more money comes in to Staprix, the better for us, and vice versa. But that doesn't try to guess what RD's plans are for the various clubs.
But this is where your argument falls down.
The real transfer dealing goes on regardless of social media pricing or even that bible of truth Transfermarket.com.
Agents, managers, CEOs etc doing the deals really don't pick up the paper and say "Carlos Kickaball is valued at £10m by Charlton Life/Twitter/Sky" so that must be the real price.
They don't because they know from experience that prices and wages quoted in papers are nearly always miles away from reality or quote total costs rather than money down/installments/contingency payments/bonuses.
Most people inside football are a little more savvy than they are given credit for. Doesn't mean that don't make mistakes but every deal is a good deal until it goes wrong.
And I think many fans realise that too. Sure there are others who lap up what is on twitter or Sky as "real". Someone on this thread read the tweet saying delort has agreed a deal as delort had signed a deal. That is deliberate from the Sky journo but many fans can tell the difference. If they can't then more fool them.
I was simply passing on what I understood him to mean. I supposed that the TV money Celtic would get would be roughly what a Belgium club would get - or perhaps less, given the TV audience size.
Anyway, wrong thread for this.
The real transfer dealing goes on regardless of social media pricing or even that bible of truth Transfermarket.com.
Agents, managers, CEOs etc doing the deals really don't pick up the paper and say "Carlos Kickaball is valued at £10m by Charlton Life/Twitter/Sky" so that must be the real price.
Of course I know that is true. However I believe that it creates upward pressure, in much the same way as the stock market price of companies is inflated despite the alleged cold analytical genius of all those who make a living by supposedly assessing the true value of such companies.
My point has always been that we will never offer anywhere near the alleged valuation of the Tours chairman, nor will we pay an overall figure upfront. And if others do, good luck to them, because based on the very limited rational information available to us, he does not seem to be worth it.
If we do buy him, I trust the club to have done a good deal, and will support him, so long as his on pitch attitude is good.
Over and out.
The stock market is totally different in that there are 1000s and 1000s of people buying and selling millions of shares in one company.
There is only one share in Andy Delort Ltd and only one seller. And only one, two or three potential buyers or even none if the Tours owner gets it wrong.
The upward pressure is a myth and is shown as such by the near universal use of "undisclosed fee".
There maybe a few Chairman who want to say they paid £10m when in reality they paid £4 down with another £6m based on promotion, caps, etc etc but I don't think Roland is one of them.
The alternative is that FC Tours keep him but I am led to believe (all be it only from hearsay on here) that they need the money to pay a tax bill.
Thus the player will decide where he goes. Sure he would rather have more money, and Wigan will have shown him nice areas up there (there much be one or two) for him to live, but the logistics of EuroStar might be enough to make his mind up. I mean, he can live in many different places that are an easy drive to both Sparrows Lane and Ebbsfleet. That would have made a massive difference to me at his age.
However, I agree with those on here that are indifferent as to if he comes or not. Either way his (and his father's) 'press' releases have only increased the hype and will ensure that, wherever he goes, he will be under more scrutiny and greater pressure. As a parent myself I'm not sure I would want to put that kind of pressure on my son for a few quid more in his pocket. The Championship is a tough league, even harder for young foreign players. It is still possible that he will not be suited to the English game and by the time the circus has finished if he takes a while to settle in it could make his life very difficult.
I would have thought that the best plan of action would have been for the young man and his father to keep their mouths shut until the signing. Vetokele, for example, has done his talking on the pitch. We were excited by the prospect of the potential fee (again could have been made up) but he was given a pressure free run at it, and he has delivered. I'm not silly enough to think that all players don't whore themselves about for more money but those with class don't brag about it!
I know it's a bit random and comments like this will probably be irrelevant in a few days but we have the number 9 shirt vacant and Wigan don't as they have signed Riera already. We are also in a better location for him as a few of you have said, these little things could add up and make us his preferred choice. Ultimately though it is down to the fee, probabaly gonna go right down to the wire.
Get French Football @GFN_France · 4m
Tours confirm that talks are ongoing with Wigan for Andy Delort but that they're in negotiations with multiple clubs. #WAFC #ToursFC
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Get French Football @GFN_France · 5m
Tours have announced in an official statement that they have received a better offer from an English club not Wigan for Andy Delort. #WAFC
Replied to 0 times
I do hope we are well shot of this and have moved on
They know a lot of English clubs have more money than sense. I make them right.
Instead of picking up free agents and loan signings.
When was our last transfer saga? Madjid Bougherra?
For all we know Wigan could've been offering £1.5m with addons totaling to £3m and the other English club could have offered £2.5m upfront.
Just because there's been an improved offer doesn't mean it's a higher total amount, it could just mean Tours prefer the structure of the payment with more guarantees or fewer installments.