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Charlton Atheltic "B" Team!!

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  • Accrington Stanley have got the right idea...

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  • They need to punish the Premier League clubs with few home grown players and reward clubs like us who are quite capable of doing it. Not the other way round!
  • edited May 2014

    http://www.thefa.com/news/thefa/2014/may/fa-commission-report

    personally i can't argue with it, will a new division really improve the England team? Where's the evidence?

    Sorry KA, a bit rude of me, but I hope you get my point? :-)

    Old Dyke going on about urging people to see beyond the concerns of their own team or league is ridiculous. How about starting with the Sky favourites and just telling them to stop populating their teams with foreigners instead of home grown talent? The whole of English football has to be turned on it's head because Man Utd want to be able to poach youngsters from smaller clubs first teams for free, then have them playing against Forest Green, while their first team is full of Americans and Greeks...

    Can anyone explain to me how playing against Forest Green will improve a young player at Liverpool more than playing against Manchester City's reserve team, with players of a similar standard, and how stopping Leyton Orient from signing a lad from Barbados will have a positive impact on the national team?
    well, the evidence, although not a new league, but b teams, is in germany and spain.

    if you look on the list of things its restricting non eu players a lot more and making work permits a lot harder to get. Obviously theres nothing they can do about eu players, but they're making it so you have to field a specific number of home grown players in your squad.
    They cannot restrict EU players at all, it's against the law. The top clubs could voluntarily reduce the number of non English players in their squads if they wanted to, they could do that tomorrow, without the rest of the entire national game having to be turned on it's head. But they don't want to change a thing about how they do business, they just want everyone else to fall into line to make their lives even easier. I am genuinely happy to listen to anyone who can come up with a reasoned argument why playing against Ebbsfleet is any better for a player's development than playing against Spurs reserves?

    While Spain have recently enjoyed a lot of success with the national team, it has been a long time coming. They have had B and even C teams playing in the lower leagues for decades without troubling the scorers on the international stage. The success is not down to them having B teams playing against clubs like Huelva.

    In Germany the whole thing is a bit of a mess frankly, and whilst they have been more successful than England, they have not won anything for nearly 20 years...

    Interesting (but old) article here: http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

    and a few comments here worth considering too: http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1177-may-2014/11441-germany-s-b-teams-have-damaged-lower-league-clubs

    Spot on. If you are an idiot (when it comes to football) You look at Spain and say well if it works for them it will work for us. But this isn't the reason they do well as they did rubbish with this system as well. Maybe if the FA persuade parents to give their kids Spanish names, it will work. Hey Greg? Well, have you noticed how many good players have Spanish names. Forget about investing in the grass roots and addressing the issues there! What a plank that bloke is.

    I have a suggestion for you Greg. Read a book titled 'every boy's dream' yu might learn something. Although it is probably something you won't want to learn as it will run counter to the policies and the practices of the organisation you run!And that won't do in this corporate bullshit world where it is about talking the talk, not walking the walk.
  • edited May 2014
    Agree with nla's coaching ideas, but in the short term, Greg Dyke's problem is based on 2 facts:

    1 PL clubs are greedy and selfish

    2 PL clubs don't play enough English players.

    Solution: incentivise them to play English players. Pay out most of the television money on the basis of league position, as now. Pay out the rest according to who plays the most English players in their starting XI over the course of the season.

    This would mean that, if a club used more English players than anyone else, it would get, say, £15 million extra, if it played less than anyone else, it would get £15 million less than it otherwise would. This leaves it entirely up to each club. If Arsenal want to play 11 foreigners all season long, they can. They just get less cash. The smaller PL clubs would probably be most incentivised, but I see no harm in that.

    Advantages: Net cost = almost zero (just admin cost). No screwing with the pyramid. No difficulty with EU law.

    Definition of English: born in England and not played senior competitive football for anyone else, so, for example, Walters of Stoke would have been English for this purpose (as he truly is) until he played competitively for Ireland.


  • Unless I have missed it, no one has mentioned the proposed strategic loan partnership. This could effectively create feeder clubs as the proposal is that the parent club can dictate how a player is utilised at the loan club. It's a bit like Standard Liege insisting that Charlton played Thuram in goal!

    The only sensible point in the whole proposal is to increase the number of home-grown players in the squad, but even that could be detrimental to smaller clubs as better players are even more likely to be poached by Premier League teams.

    I am about to sign the petition.

  • Now 16,700 signatures. So that's Charlton's average gate. What about the rest of the League?
  • edited May 2014
    One idea that won't ever get introduced is pay the club who produces an England player from a levy of Premiership clubs. So when a player like Scott Parker reaches 10 caps, we get paid 500k as a club outside the Premier league. It basically rewards good academies. The number of clubs could be used as a positive as it incentivises producing good players. The recent academy changes doesn't and has all been about what is best for the big clubs as per usual. The problem is that the PL always looks to the big clubs for the answers when they are always the problem!

    Greg Dyke says it is no good doing nothing, If you can't support these proposals - what do you want to do? Doing nothing isn't an option. Great words, but how about getting more qualified and modern coaches into the grass roots game - it will cost money Greg - quite a lot. Subsidising football so more kids have access to good quality coaching is also part of the solution. But it would require a significant investment from the clubs who pay Dyke's wages who can't really care less! If you want to limit non european players to premiership clubs to 2. Why not make it zero like you are proposing for the lower league clubs? We all know why - and that proves what a plank you are - How can Dyke make the suggestions when his organisation create the problems. I am so angry.
  • I told you all Polish Pete would be useful!
  • I read this morning that there are just 66 Englishmen playing regular football across Europe's top leagues. Surely that can't include the English Premiership?
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  • Other posters have said it all. The lack of cogent analysis and insight in the report is truly shocking. Greg Dyke has come across as a complete buffoon.
  • PL54 said:

    I read this morning that there are just 66 Englishmen playing regular football across Europe's top leagues. Surely that can't include the English Premiership?

    I doubt it, surely ? When it says "top" leagues does it mean Italy/Spain/Germany or quite literally top flight leagues anywhere in Europe ?
  • How did Danny Mills get a job on the FA commission? He was waffling on 5live yesterday saying B teams never finish high in the league yet Barcelona B are currently 3rd in the Spanish 2nd division.

    The thought of breaking up the football league structure so our youngest can play against conference/league 2 players in the hope of aiding the national team is bonkers. If English players are coached to a high enough standard they will make it in the PL

    I think people are also forgetting that international football is slowly dying off. It's all about club football these days, international games are meaningless for 2 years between tournaments and are seen more of an annoyance than anything else coupled with the winter world cup in Qatar and the corruption in Fifa people will lose interest.
  • The obvious solution is to improve the standard of coaching at all levels and age groups. I don't know why the commission cannot see it.
  • The obvious solution is to improve the standard of coaching at all levels and age groups. I don't know why the commission cannot see it.

    Just what I was thinking.

    Seen the numbers so many times. Spain, Germany etc have a lot more qualified coaches than us.

    B teams between League 1 and the Conference isn't going to suddenly bridge that gap to the first team. Clubs still need to give players a chance, but there's too much money to risk missing out on the Champions League or getting relegated. Players already go on loan to clubs at that level as as well as play each others B teams at u21 level, what would be so different?

    They might say playing for Dagenham in League 2 means they don't get the same quality of coaching and don't play in the same style of the first team. Perhaps if some of the Prem millions instead went to the lower league clubs they could improve facilities, hire more and better coaches, improve their pitches etc.

    And what about at younger ages? Is our coaching as good as it is abroad? Do 10 year olds still play 11 aside football on adult pitches with full size footballs and goals? (That might have changed recently?) Is there still a focus on winning and physique rather than technical ability and tactical understanding?

    Clubs can now name 7 subs. Why not have a rule to say 2 should be u21?

    What about clubs poaching the best lower league youngsters, building up huge squads? While Kasey Palmer might be getting better coaching and playing with better players, had he stayed at Charlton he could be making his Championship debut next season. For every Defoe there are plenty it didn't work out for, Sean McGinty more recently, Owen Price years before him. There will be plenty more examples throughout the FL.

    Plenty more can be done instead of destroying our lower leagues.
  • The whole idea is a joke, that will cause a lot of lower league clubs to go out of business.

    The reason that Spain produce the players they do is because of Money. Outside the top 2, they can not afford to buy in these world class players and so have to produce their own. Soon as a premier league club comes sniffing around, they sell them and promote another player from the youth team. It’s the same for Brazil and I suspect quite a few countries around the world. This is how the clubs survive without sky's money.
  • Good point on the subs bench Scoham.

    I don't understand the whole non-EU visa part (a club is limited to only 2 non-eu visa players). That doesn't stop all the French, Italians, Spanish and Germans playing in our leagues does it?
  • Signed. It is a stupid idea and if I was cynical in any way I'd be thinking this is less about development of young English players and more about the FA trying to increase its connections to the Premier League and take a small part of the PL financial pie.

    I'd also like to know exactly how many young English players each Premiership team intends to sign. Let's say 5 to stay with the 'A' team, 25 for the 'B' team and 5 to loan out to FL clubs. 20 'B' teams x 35 = 700 young English players. Are they all going to be of a high enough quality? Are the FL clubs going to have any of their own young English players left under contract? Or are they all going to be nicked by the PL clubs?
  • What would a Premier League B team against a League One mainstay look like?

    Imagine Leyton Orient v Chelsea B in league one. Your average Chelsea fan cant get a ticket to a senior team away game so they would see this as an opportunity to go to one. On a good day there could easily be 1,000 chelsea fans there, and orient would get more money for away fans that wouldnt have existed in the past.

    Presumably a team like Chelsea would have to play their B team home games at Brentford or something? What would happen if QPR ended up back in League One and Chelsea were playing them at home. Would it get moved to Stamford Bridge because of the large away following and increased interest in general with it being a derby game. Well kind of a derby game....

    Would Chelsea fans be bothered about watching a B team at "home" games in the first place?
  • Wow. Just listened to the Talksport interview. How on earth is that man in charge of our national game? What an insult to lower league teams. Absolutely disgusting and clearly not thought out at all.

    Clearly it can't go ahead.
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  • Going back to a reserve league like the old combination would be a good start, I mean most prem teams would put out very strong reserve teams so young players would get very competitive games in amongst seasoned pros, blimey even Palace would have put out a strong reserve team this season. I have a family member who was a youth player many years ago and at the age of 16 and 17 he was playing in the combination alongside players like Fashanu and against players like Cascarino, Whiteside and Niall Quinn. Another would be to make prem teams have to cough up serious dough or face punishment for taking players under 20 from lower league clubs who've developed young talent. Also agree with nla that coaching up to Level 2 should be free or seriously subsidised.
  • edited May 2014
    Reward the smaller clubs that produce England talent so more clubs have an incentive to do it. Don't nick their players - that they have produced - - pay good money for them. Use the set up we have in this country as a positive - be visionary. We have more competetive lower leagues than most countries so lets develop new ideas - incentivising lower league teams is a big thing that would make a difference and could be a advantage this country has. Changes introduced by the Premier league recently have done the opposite.

    I'm sure there are a host of Premiership clubs trying to steal Poyet from us!
  • red_murph said:

    Wow. Just listened to the Talksport interview. How on earth is that man in charge of our national game? What an insult to lower league teams. Absolutely disgusting and clearly not thought out at all.

    Clearly it can't go ahead.

    He really did come across as clueless, nothing to really back up the report apart from they do it in Spain and Germany. I actually thought he was going to be a breath of fresh air in the FA but his background in the media means he will always favour the most money making part of the game when their remit is to benefit all of football from grass roots to the England team, not just favour one part of it.
  • On the coaches point, when i did my Level 1 about 6 years ago it was £215. When i looked into doing my Level 2, it was £500, involved taking a week off work and was wholly inflexible (ie. it was best suited for people out of work, but at a price that was hard to justify). I personally couldn't justify neither the cost or the use of leave to the missus.

    No idea if it has got more flexible / inviting in the years since, but the whole thing was just filled with barriers.
  • The more I read and hear about the B team the more I think that the B team idea is a diversion.

    people are rightly criticising the B team concept. So the FA will give it up as a sacrificial lamb to allow the other proposals to get through. A huge bribe solidarity payment will smooth the way.

    The nursery club concept is a far greater threat to the independence of football league clubs IMO.

    Once Arsenal have made a link with Millwall and packed the Lions with their reserves is Millwall still Millwall? Will Holloway be replaced with an Arsenal approved coach who plays the way Arsenal want.

    And we'll laugh at Millwall until it happens to us.
  • edited May 2014
    Just what we need to make the top of the Premiership more stagnant than ever. Yet again it's all geared to keeping the rich clubs rich and at the top. If they have too many good young English players maybe they should loan them out to league clubs to get genuine competitive experience. The last thing we want are Man Utd, Chelsea etc B. An absolutely horrible idea that has nothing to do with improving the England team. It's all about greed.
  • The more I read and hear about the B team the more I think that the B team idea is a diversion.

    people are rightly criticising the B team concept. So the FA will give it up as a sacrificial lamb to allow the other proposals to get through.

    That's exactly what I thought, as soon as I read about it.
  • NugNug
    edited May 2014
    Great post @MuttleyCAFC I am helping coach my son's school U9 team who are playing in the Lewisham League up on Blackheath and I am perturbed at the competitiveness of the parents and other coaches. I agree with everything you say regarding technique etc and always focus on that. I also find that kids are already said to be a defender or a striker, set them up in positions yes, but then let them play...and give them all a chance.

    I also agree with AFKA, the jumping through hoops to get level 1 or 2 coaching badges is too much, it has put me off. I can honestly say, not that it is likely to happen, if a scout came up to my son and asked him to train at a pro club academy I would tell him to get lost (unless it was Charlton of course!). I honestly believe it is not for the benefit of the kids purely to cast a wide a net as possible.

    By the way the set up from Lewisham Council regarding pitch sizes and goals is excellent.
  • Nug said:

    Great post @MuttleyCAFC I am helping coach my son's school U9 team who are playing in the Lewisham League up on Blackheath and I am perturbed at the competitiveness of the parents and other coaches. I agree with everything you say regarding technique etc and always focus on that. I also find that kids are already said to be a defender or a striker, set them up in positions yes, but then let them play...and give them all a chance.

    I also agree with AFKA, the jumping through hoops to get level 1 or 2 coaching badges is too much, it has put me off. I can honestly say, not that it is likely to happen, if a scout came up to my son and asked him to train at a pro club academy I would tell him to get lost (unless it was Charlton of course!). I honestly believe it is not for the benefit of the kids purely to cast a wide a net as possible.

    By the way the set up from Lewisham Council regarding pitch sizes and goals is excellent.

    Good luck with that Nug. Yes, the parents often drive the agenda. Living out their failed dreams and aspirations in their kids! It is easy to do - I have to keep reminding myself of this - being a parent myself.
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