personally i can't argue with it, will a new division really improve the England team? Where's the evidence?
Sorry KA, a bit rude of me, but I hope you get my point? :-)
Old Dyke going on about urging people to see beyond the concerns of their own team or league is ridiculous. How about starting with the Sky favourites and just telling them to stop populating their teams with foreigners instead of home grown talent? The whole of English football has to be turned on it's head because Man Utd want to be able to poach youngsters from smaller clubs first teams for free, then have them playing against Forest Green, while their first team is full of Americans and Greeks...
Can anyone explain to me how playing against Forest Green will improve a young player at Liverpool more than playing against Manchester City's reserve team, with players of a similar standard, and how stopping Leyton Orient from signing a lad from Barbados will have a positive impact on the national team?
personally i can't argue with it, will a new division really improve the England team? Where's the evidence?
Sorry KA, a bit rude of me, but I hope you get my point? :-)
Old Dyke going on about urging people to see beyond the concerns of their own team or league is ridiculous. How about starting with the Sky favourites and just telling them to stop populating their teams with foreigners instead of home grown talent? The whole of English football has to be turned on it's head because Man Utd want to be able to poach youngsters from smaller clubs first teams for free, then have them playing against Forest Green, while their first team is full of Americans and Greeks...
Can anyone explain to me how playing against Forest Green will improve a young player at Liverpool more than playing against Manchester City's reserve team, with players of a similar standard, and how stopping Leyton Orient from signing a lad from Barbados will have a positive impact on the national team?
well, the evidence, although not a new league, but b teams, is in germany and spain.
if you look on the list of things its restricting non eu players a lot more and making work permits a lot harder to get. Obviously theres nothing they can do about eu players, but they're making it so you have to field a specific number of home grown players in your squad.
THere are countries outside of the EU who have trade agreements with EU including the wright of people to work in the EU. So they will be able to play in these B teams as well, it is all about pandering to the big teams in the premiership so they can siphon up more young players from this country and the world.
As others have said what was wrong with the old football combination. A proper reserve league with a mix of young players coming through, players making their way back from injury, and players out of favour. Saw many games years ago and saw some big international players playing. Where does a player like Pritchard get match practice if he's not in the playing squad? Was a simple solution. Hate the way FA kowtow to the PL, it's pathetic.
personally i can't argue with it, will a new division really improve the England team? Where's the evidence?
Sorry KA, a bit rude of me, but I hope you get my point? :-)
Old Dyke going on about urging people to see beyond the concerns of their own team or league is ridiculous. How about starting with the Sky favourites and just telling them to stop populating their teams with foreigners instead of home grown talent? The whole of English football has to be turned on it's head because Man Utd want to be able to poach youngsters from smaller clubs first teams for free, then have them playing against Forest Green, while their first team is full of Americans and Greeks...
Can anyone explain to me how playing against Forest Green will improve a young player at Liverpool more than playing against Manchester City's reserve team, with players of a similar standard, and how stopping Leyton Orient from signing a lad from Barbados will have a positive impact on the national team?
well, the evidence, although not a new league, but b teams, is in germany and spain.
if you look on the list of things its restricting non eu players a lot more and making work permits a lot harder to get. Obviously theres nothing they can do about eu players, but they're making it so you have to field a specific number of home grown players in your squad.
They cannot restrict EU players at all, it's against the law. The top clubs could voluntarily reduce the number of non English players in their squads if they wanted to, they could do that tomorrow, without the rest of the entire national game having to be turned on it's head. But they don't want to change a thing about how they do business, they just want everyone else to fall into line to make their lives even easier. I am genuinely happy to listen to anyone who can come up with a reasoned argument why playing against Ebbsfleet is any better for a player's development than playing against Spurs reserves?
While Spain have recently enjoyed a lot of success with the national team, it has been a long time coming. They have had B and even C teams playing in the lower leagues for decades without troubling the scorers on the international stage. The success is not down to them having B teams playing against clubs like Huelva.
In Germany the whole thing is a bit of a mess frankly, and whilst they have been more successful than England, they have not won anything for nearly 20 years...
Terrible, terrible idea. Best prem fringe players will want to play at Champ level on loan in any case (or even higher - we had Alex Song as a prem club). And who wants to watch B teams
Avge attendance for Bayern Munich B team was 662 last season.
Is there anything to stop a Premier League team from funding the start up of a second club that starts at the bottom of the pyramid and gets it to work its way into the Football League, using the team to test academy players and U21s by loaning them to the second team?
Or is there anything to stop a PL team from 'adopting' a local non-league club as its 'B team'?
I don't see the point anyway: we already have the U21 and U18 leagues don't we? Isn't that the point of a 'B team', to keep talent fit and to develop them? Or would they rather future Premier League stars were cutting their teeth against 30 year old warhorses in the lower rungs of the FL or upper rungs of the conference?
It's cheaper to do what they do at the moment, which is just stealing all the good players from lower league teams or paying for them once they are developed.
Ridiculous. Surely they don't believe that this will work? Leaving the point about negative effects on lower league football for a moment surely these under 21 players facing a seasoned conference team will be bad for their development in terms of technical ability purely because they won't be able to cope with the physicality? Playing conference football with potential England and premier league players is a style clash that will reap very few returns. People have already said imagine Diego moving to Chelsea to drop down to 'league 3'...
This will also lead to more hoarding of young players by teams as they can simply stick them in their b teams and pick the one kid every five years with ability.
The problem is simply coaching and culture amongst these youth teams. Players know they are unlikely to play for the first team and so do the clubs who have them 'just in case'.
Introducing a home grown rule where, say 3 players in the first team have to be trained in England before the age of fourteen for the 2018/2019 season (or whatever season is realistic) would mean that teams like Chelsea would have to address their coaching of youth players going some way to curing what is the main reason of the problem they are looking to address.
Increasing compensation considerably for 'stealing' youth team players would also incentivise the development of young talent further down the ladder.
Then as time progresses change from 3 players up to 4 in periods of ten years to give clubs time to adapt and players come through.
Pretty hastily thought through ideas but better by some margin than the 'breakthroughs' of Greg dyke and his team (including Rio Ferdinand and Danny mills... ) that serve purely to increase premier league clubs stranglehold on the game rather than address the underlying issues. As said previously what is banning non EU players in league 2 going to achieve for the England team?!
How about we change the English League Structure to the following
Premier League League stays @ 20 teams with relegation remaining as it is Each side gets a "B" Team... If a team gets relegated then they also lose their "B" Team
Championship League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs and relegation remaining the same No team gets a "B" Team... If promoted to the Premier League then your given the "B" Team
League One League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs and relegation remaining the same No team gets a "B" Team...
League Two League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs yet relegation increased from two teams to three teams. No team gets a "B" Team...
Conference League Splits in a North and South each with 22 teams... (12 from existing Conference in each and each have half of the "B" Teams from the Premier League based on Geography)
Winners from North and South automatically promoted to League Two... 2nd / 3rd Teams from North and South go into a Play-Off and Winners are promoted to League Two 3 Teams relegated into Conference North and South respectively (Who each have three teams promoted to Conference rather than two)
---------------- Plus Points - Conference gets their wish of having three teams Up and Down from League Two - Premier League get their wish of having "B" Teams in the Football Pyramid
Negative Points - If (Say) Fulham are relegated from the Premier League after a good number of years and their "B" Team has reached League One, then that "B" side automatically disappears so the League's would have to be re-jigged to accommodate that... If they then go straight back into the Premier League they have to start once more from the Conference
I cannot see Mourinho Calling up a player who played against Barnet one week to play against Man City the next. He will still pay Millions for a new player, therefore not actually producing players of Premier League standard.
Thanks Algraveaddick for the interesting articles from WSC. What resonates with me is the point made by the German supporter group that the argument that B team participation in the league system is somehow necessary to bring through future German stars is “calculated hypocrisy”. While third and fourth division clubs develop German talent (rather like Crewe here), the rich Bundeslegia clubs use their scouts to scour places like South America and Africa for talent. I have seen 'B' games in Spain and even Lavente B v Valencia B at the end of March - a local derby, as Lavente is in the city of Valencia - only attracted about 400 spectators. Lavente won that one because, being in danger of relegation, they included a number of players from the first team squad. We do not want the competition in our lower leagues distorted by that sort of approach. Where would it leave the smaller clubs ?
Thanks also Addickted4life for posting the petition, which I've signed.
I think that supporter groups and trusts throughout the country need to mobilise supporters to prevent this ridiculous idea gaining any traction. It needs to be killed at birth and a huge petition should certainly help it on its way, as well as showing the F.A. to be the hypocritical, self-interested incompetents that they are.
Read both sides of the argument. Not sure England might winning the world cup in 2030 is worth the damage it could potentially cause.
Nice to see the commision are doing something and trying to think outside the box but they have to give the football league the vote not just the premier league clubs who may benefit.
The thought alone that a Fulham B team could cost a proud Football League club with all it's history, tradition and fans a place in the Football League is ridiculous. On that basis alone it should be rejected.
The only way the national team will ever improve in this country is if there are limits placed on the amount of foreign born players allowed in a match day XI but that will never happen because it'll cost the Premier League too much money, which they care a lot more about than this country ever wining an international tournament.
EU rules do not involve compulsory purchase of foreign labour. As far as I know, who you employ is still at the employer's discretion. Prem clubs hire johnny foreigner because English players are either too expensive or not good enough (or, often as not, both). If English players were all well coached from a young age there would be plenty more earning their living in the PL.
PL clubs poaching more young talent than they could ever need when they can't offer them competitive action is the root of the national side's problem. DIEGO POYET please take note! An FA with any sense would put a stop to that form of selfish stockpiling and then the cream would rise to the top naturally.
The only way the national team will ever improve in this country is if there are limits placed on the amount of foreign born players allowed in a match day XI but that will never happen because it'll cost the Premier League too much money, which they care a lot more about than this country ever wining an international tournament.
100% agree. Was there not a 5 and 6 rule meant to be coming in?
Comments
Old Dyke going on about urging people to see beyond the concerns of their own team or league is ridiculous. How about starting with the Sky favourites and just telling them to stop populating their teams with foreigners instead of home grown talent? The whole of English football has to be turned on it's head because Man Utd want to be able to poach youngsters from smaller clubs first teams for free, then have them playing against Forest Green, while their first team is full of Americans and Greeks...
Can anyone explain to me how playing against Forest Green will improve a young player at Liverpool more than playing against Manchester City's reserve team, with players of a similar standard, and how stopping Leyton Orient from signing a lad from Barbados will have a positive impact on the national team?
if you look on the list of things its restricting non eu players a lot more and making work permits a lot harder to get. Obviously theres nothing they can do about eu players, but they're making it so you have to field a specific number of home grown players in your squad.
While Spain have recently enjoyed a lot of success with the national team, it has been a long time coming. They have had B and even C teams playing in the lower leagues for decades without troubling the scorers on the international stage. The success is not down to them having B teams playing against clubs like Huelva.
In Germany the whole thing is a bit of a mess frankly, and whilst they have been more successful than England, they have not won anything for nearly 20 years...
Interesting (but old) article here: http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs
and a few comments here worth considering too: http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1177-may-2014/11441-germany-s-b-teams-have-damaged-lower-league-clubs
Avge attendance for Bayern Munich B team was 662 last season.
I heard that Wasps have a good B team.
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams
This will also lead to more hoarding of young players by teams as they can simply stick them in their b teams and pick the one kid every five years with ability.
The problem is simply coaching and culture amongst these youth teams. Players know they are unlikely to play for the first team and so do the clubs who have them 'just in case'.
Introducing a home grown rule where, say 3 players in the first team have to be trained in England before the age of fourteen for the 2018/2019 season (or whatever season is realistic) would mean that teams like Chelsea would have to address their coaching of youth players going some way to curing what is the main reason of the problem they are looking to address.
Increasing compensation considerably for 'stealing' youth team players would also incentivise the development of young talent further down the ladder.
Then as time progresses change from 3 players up to 4 in periods of ten years to give clubs time to adapt and players come through.
Pretty hastily thought through ideas but better by some margin than the 'breakthroughs' of Greg dyke and his team (including Rio Ferdinand and Danny mills... ) that serve purely to increase premier league clubs stranglehold on the game rather than address the underlying issues. As said previously what is banning non EU players in league 2 going to achieve for the England team?!
Premier League
League stays @ 20 teams with relegation remaining as it is
Each side gets a "B" Team... If a team gets relegated then they also lose their "B" Team
Championship
League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs and relegation remaining the same
No team gets a "B" Team... If promoted to the Premier League then your given the "B" Team
League One
League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs and relegation remaining the same
No team gets a "B" Team...
League Two
League stays @ 24 teams with promotion / play-offs yet relegation increased from two teams to three teams.
No team gets a "B" Team...
Conference
League Splits in a North and South each with 22 teams...
(12 from existing Conference in each and each have half of the "B" Teams from the Premier League based on Geography)
Winners from North and South automatically promoted to League Two...
2nd / 3rd Teams from North and South go into a Play-Off and Winners are promoted to League Two
3 Teams relegated into Conference North and South respectively (Who each have three teams promoted to Conference rather than two)
----------------
Plus Points
- Conference gets their wish of having three teams Up and Down from League Two
- Premier League get their wish of having "B" Teams in the Football Pyramid
Negative Points
- If (Say) Fulham are relegated from the Premier League after a good number of years and their "B" Team has reached League One, then that "B" side automatically disappears so the League's would have to be re-jigged to accommodate that... If they then go straight back into the Premier League they have to start once more from the Conference
It's the most ridiculous thing ever that is being suggested
By the most ridiculous set of people on the committee
Should be treated with the contempt they deserve
FFs rio and mills on improving the morality and youth of England who are starting their journey in football
Both a pair of c**ts with out a morale fibre in their body
Gregg dyke is a suited clown to be the face of the circus
Do other countries fas act like ours all the time?
Thanks also Addickted4life for posting the petition, which I've signed.
I think that supporter groups and trusts throughout the country need to mobilise supporters to prevent this ridiculous idea gaining any traction. It needs to be killed at birth and a huge petition should certainly help it on its way, as well as showing the F.A. to be the hypocritical, self-interested incompetents that they are.
Nice to see the commision are doing something and trying to think outside the box but they have to give the football league the vote not just the premier league clubs who may benefit.
http://tlks.pt/AG5muH
I listened to it live it was hilarious listening
The only way the national team will ever improve in this country is if there are limits placed on the amount of foreign born players allowed in a match day XI but that will never happen because it'll cost the Premier League too much money, which they care a lot more about than this country ever wining an international tournament.
PL clubs poaching more young talent than they could ever need when they can't offer them competitive action is the root of the national side's problem. DIEGO POYET please take note! An FA with any sense would put a stop to that form of selfish stockpiling and then the cream would rise to the top naturally.
The only way the national team will ever improve in this country is if there are limits placed on the amount of foreign born players allowed in a match day XI but that will never happen because it'll cost the Premier League too much money, which they care a lot more about than this country ever wining an international tournament.
100% agree. Was there not a 5 and 6 rule meant to be coming in?
Probably got knocked back.
Shameful this idea has even got to the stage of going public.