In some ways the best thing that could happen to football would be Sky pulling out.
Dont think Sky or other (Foreign companies) need to pull out... Instead they shouldnt be allowed to advertise matches weeks in advance (Maybe they'll boost attendances doing this) yet instead should be allowed to show the one Premier League game @ 3pm (on SS1) and one Football League game again @ 3pm (on SS2 or the Red Button)
No one is allowed to know what it is (Unless its obviously Man City v Man Utd etc...) and they only announce it 5mins prior to Kick-Off, i.e. Jeff Stelling before going to a break on Soccer Saturday could say "Stay tuned after the break for the 3pm Kick-Offs, unless you want to see X v X which is kicking off over on Sky Sports One"
People's mindsets should then hopefully be: I want to see Liverpool v West Ham but had better go to the game in case its not the one shown on TV this week
I think the Premier League and the equivalents in other countries has become an incurable cancer in the game. Sky has been a big factor in this for sure.
So someone like Diego Poyet could leave Charlton in The Championship and then be playing for Chelsea 'B' at conference level a month later. He wouldn't even be able to turn it down, because it would be playing for a team of his contracted club. I imagine Roland will be all over this though. It builds into his network idea and saves him buying a non-league football club.
Another thing is that if Man City B win League 2 / League One / Championship they would not be able to compete in the premiership. You cannot have a ‘B’ team competing in the same competition as the ‘A’ team due to a conflict of interest.
If a big club falls through the leagues then do they lose their B teams if they fall to a lower enough league. Or is this the end of relegation from the Premiership / Championship ?
You can't stop the premier league big nous hoovering up the talent so instead I'd suggest something akin to the rule 5 draft in baseball.
Once a player hits 18 then a clock starts ticking so to speak. Before they hit 20 they have to play x% of games they are eligible for (ie not injured). If they do not play this number of games they can leave on a free to join another club in the English football pyramid. If the club they join is at the same level as the club they leave then they have to be included in the 25 players registered.
This doesn't prevent young players from joining the top clubs but it does offer an incentive to play them. It would also filter down the leagues as players move on a free in search of games.
Clubs may lose potential future earnings if a player opts to leave but they'd also gain where a player opts to join. You also couldn't bury talent as the system requires you to use players if you want to keep them.
Totally against this as well. All this suggestion is doing is highlighting the fact that the top PL clubs are just stockpiling youngsters nicked from acadamies and stifling their development.
What they need to do is make the current joke of a system fair for all the FL clubs being robbed of their youth prospects and make the PL clubs pay a fair price. Talent can then develop playing in the FL for proper clubs and if they're good enough they'll always rise to the top. It's too cheap and easy to poach and basically creates a completely unfair competition favouring the glamour boys so they can stay on top.
All they need is a proper reserve league again. When we had players down at East Kent Addicks meeting this season they all said that they want a reserve league back. U21 games are not good enough as only 3 over 21 players can play, and they are not regualr enough. It is hard to arrange friendly games, and the U21s need to be playing against first team players from other sides, not just players their own age.
Another thing is that if Man City B win League 2 / League One / Championship they would not be able to compete in the premiership. You cannot have a ‘B’ team competing in the same competition as the ‘A’ team due to a conflict of interest.
If a big club falls through the leagues then do they lose their B teams if they fall to a lower enough league. Or is this the end of relegation from the Premiership / Championship ?
What happens if a Man City B team, filled with wannabee prima donnas who don't fancy being kicked all over the park, finishes bottom in League 2?
This will kill teams where they have to compete with a local B team tied to a Prem club. Premier League clubs have hundreds of young players that can't break into the first team and loads of the 72 clubs desperately need able players on loan. I'd rather have a parent/feeder club system formalised, where smaller lower league clubs could in effect act like the B teams and receive loans from their parent club that don't count towards the loan restrictions during that season, in exchange for the parent club having first right-of-refusal on any promising players looking to move to a larger club.
An absolutely deplorable and completely ill-thought out idea. It would make absolutely bugger all difference to the fortunes of the England team and completely undermine the one really distinctive feature of the English game, namely, our pyramid of 92 League clubs (and the structure below that). Would we really want to cast aside all that heritage just to placate the large Premier League clubs with their bloated squads (comprising mainly imported talent) ?
Another dismal attempt by the F.A. to be seen to be 'doing something' about the state of the national team and the game generally. I suspect it's more about pandering to the Premier League in order to try and cling on to the limited amount of power that they have left.
Here's an alternative idea - instead of completely diminishing and damaging the lower leagues, what about helping to fund the training of more qualified coaches, given the dismal numbers we have compared to Germany, Spain and Italy etc. ?
If this ridiculous idea gains any traction, I hope that supporters as a whole mobilise effectively against it.
So, here's the latest from Danny Mills: bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27320402 He says "B teams are on the agenda but not a B team league." So, how would that work? What's the point of creating teams but not a league for them to play in? He also says interested parties have been consulted incl the Football League & Conference. But there's no mention of supporters....I assume none of the Trusts were consulted? My views are the same as those expressed here already but I suspect many clubs would see it differently. Let's say you are chairman of Bury and see the possible £ signs from playing two games a year for each of Man Utd B and Man City B. But if the alternative is more support being sucked away from Bury because supporters in Greater Manchester would be drifting off to more attractive fixtures like a Manchester B derby match, perhaps the Bury chairman might not be so keen.
I think I now understand why Man City's new training ground plans include the construction of a 7,000 seat capacity stadium.
What would happen IF....Man City's B team worked there way up the 'pyramid' to the Prem and then had to play Man City's A team. It could be that within 4/5 years of it's introduction we could have a Premier League with (just for example) a Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool A and B team in the top league.....all seems a tad ridiculous to me.
Is there anything to stop a Premier League team from funding the start up of a second club that starts at the bottom of the pyramid and gets it to work its way into the Football League, using the team to test academy players and U21s by loaning them to the second team?
Or is there anything to stop a PL team from 'adopting' a local non-league club as its 'B team'?
I don't see the point anyway: we already have the U21 and U18 leagues don't we? Isn't that the point of a 'B team', to keep talent fit and to develop them? Or would they rather future Premier League stars were cutting their teeth against 30 year old warhorses in the lower rungs of the FL or upper rungs of the conference?
CF94 I hope you are right but for far too many clubs reserve football was seen as an expense too far, especially when so many players today seem happy enough to draw their pay just sitting in the stand.
The "B" team "theory" like most theories actually has some merit. It is of course not an uncommon practice in leagues across mainland Europe. You did not really think the FA came up with the idea on their own did you? The idea of young professionals playing in a team operating at a senior level actually playing men's football has been a gaping hole in the pace of the development of young players for it seems decades.
The loan system flatters to deceive because too often young players have to cope with a different coaches, managers team mates, systems and more often than not spend far too much time sitting on the bench. With certain players, with the right coaches and in the right circumstances it can work well but that tends to be the exception.
The concept is not unknown in English football. Charlton along with other professional clubs used to operate amateur or semi professional sides classified as "A" teams - we had a team I think in the Metropolitan League. It was effectively the 3rd XI - I recall seeing John Ryan, a big powerful centre forward (I think he was a policeman) stepping up 2 levels on occasion and once scoring an excellent headed goal.
The collapse of proper competitive reserve team football on financial grounds put the whole learning curve for younger players completely out of kilter. If you had ever watched a series of reserve games with youngsters playing alongside someone like Harry Cripps you would see the benefit. Most of those lads will have learned more about the game in a couple of competitive game situations with him than a whole season playing in the U21's.
The U21's has its value but for too many of the youngsters they will have been playing at that level for too long against the same opposition, sometimes for 3 seasons. The opportunities to really grow their game is quite limited.
The challenge (or in reality the terrifying prospect) of course comes with the implementation of any such plan. You just know those with the deepest pockets will take any and every opportunity to further promote their interests over everybody else. It is a decade or 2 since I had any interaction with the FA but I suspect little has changed from a group of mostly dedicated well meaning amateurs (no matter how many "names" they pitch up) trying to deal with a group of commercially astute Premier League owners intent on progressing their agenda. To put it politely I would not trust the collective buffoonery that is the FA to even understand half of the potential dangers to the game let alone protect it from even greater distortion/ corruption.
I am beginning to think the unthinkable, that the "game", as it approaches a tipping point where it will become completely unrecognisable as a genuine sporting enterprise, will "god forbid" need the government of the day to step in.
So, here's the latest from Danny Mills: bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27320402 He says "B teams are on the agenda but not a B team league." So, how would that work? What's the point of creating teams but not a league for them to play in? He also says interested parties have been consulted incl the Football League & Conference.
I found it strange reading this article that it has a quote from the Luton Town CEO saying These proposals would kill English Football as we know it
Well am sorry Danny but can you prove that Football League and Conference teams have been consulted because Luton Town fall into this very category
What would happen IF....Man City's B team worked there way up the 'pyramid' to the Prem and then had to play Man City's A team. It could be that within 4/5 years of it's introduction we could have a Premier League with (just for example) a Man City, Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool A and B team in the top league.....all seems a tad ridiculous to me.
I extracted this from wiki regarding the Spanish set up, maybe it's correct:
Segunda División B currently features 80 teams divided into 4 groups of 20. The top four teams from each group, 16 teams in total, qualify for play-offs to determine which four teams will replace the four teams relegated from the Liga Adelante. However reserve teams are only eligible for promotion to the Liga Adelante if their senior team is in the Liga BBVA. The top five teams from each group and best two teams regardless of group outside the previous twenty, excluding reserve teams, also qualify for the following seasons Copa del Rey. The bottom four teams in each league are relegated to the Tercera División. Also, the four 16th-placed teams enter into a relegation playoff to determine the two teams to be relegated. One team is paired with one of the others in home and away series. the two winners remain in the division while the losers are relegated. A reserve team can also be relegated if their senior team is relegated from the Liga Adelante. Along with teams from the Tercera División, teams from the division also compete in the Copa Federación.
So, a "B" team can't get promoted to the same league the "A" team plays in and if an "A" team gets relegated to the league the "B" team plays in, the "B" team gets relegated too! And "B" teams can't play in the main cup competition. Complicated or what? (I assume the Copa Federación is a bit like our league cup and that "A" teams don't enter it - so maybe it's more like the Johnsons Paint really?)
Here in Portugal the "B" teams of the greedy three currently take up three of the top six places in the second division. None are eligible for promotion, so the play offs look likely to feature the teams finishing third, sixth, seventh and eighth. Farcical.
FA chairman Greg Dyke announces a new plan to try and improve England national team’s chances of success.
There are four key points :
1. The formation of Premier League B teams – possibly within a new League 3 2. Strategic loan partnerships between PL, Championship and lower league teams 3. Reduction in non-home-grown players in a Premier League squad from 17 to 12, over 5 years. 4. No non-EU visas issued to players for clubs outside the Premier League
FA Commission want a new League Three in 16-17 made up of 10 Premier League B teams and 10 from the Conference. Of the B team squad, 19 of the 25 should be under 21 and 20 of the 25 should qualify for the home-grown rule and no non-EU players. No promotion for the B-Teams above League 1.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is Italy and their league structure. It's similar to here and I'd say it's served them well.
However, Italy have an annual and prestigious youth tournament which is taken very seriously. This is worked towards throughout the year. Rather than copy or even enter that though, screw over every single club from the Championship down. The FA truly are clueless.
So these B teams can be promoted from conference to league 1 at the expense of current conference and league clubs. This would kill off lower league clubs as why would you want to own a club that can not get promoted as it is in competition with mega rich premiership clubs. As far as I am concerned this is not on. Also how long before these B teams are full of EU passport holders and then we are back to square one.
So when and where would these teams play? Would the A and B teams have to play alternate weekends at home? What happens if the fixtures end up clashing due to involvement in cup competitions etc.? Would the games have to be played at the Valley? So Charlton would have to pay for the ground to be open every week? Or we we find an alternate venue? For smaller teams, what would the attendances really be like? Our away support has not been anything to shout out about this year, what would our B team's be like? This would create a knock on effect again to the smaller clubs in leagues 1 and 2, as they would get less gate receipts etc. Although maybe balanced by getting a few more through the door from the bigger clubs.
It all seems very complicated. It makes it even harder for teams that would be in the conference to then get promoted to the football league. Imagine a club like Portsmouth getting relegated to the new league 3, and then having to compete with the likes of man u B and man city b to get back into the football league.
I will await to see what the full plans are before I fully pass judgement, but so far I don't like the concept. I love our football league, and don't want to see if ruined by the introduction of these new 'B' teams.
I've now skimmed through the FA's proposals. The are so many potential pitfalls, it's beyond belief.
They ask for input during the "consultation period" and I'd hope that as fans, presumably through the Trust, we could provide some.
All they seem to care about is the performance of the national team and how they can assist the Premier League elite to shaft everyone else. A classic is that Premier League teams claim can't now get all their 18-21 year-olds sufficient experience. Well, perhaps if the FA didn't assist them to poach other teams players there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. There's also a suggestion that non-EU players shouldn't be permitted to play in any league but the Premier League. Here's Dyke's patronising comment in the report: "We believe that no players coming in on non-EU visas should be allowed to join clubs in any league in England other than the Premier League. The players are either of exceptional talent or they are not." So, the FA believes that our league is just not allowed to have players of exceptional talent then?
From BBC: Peterborough chairman Darragh MacAnthony: "My thoughts on this B team scenario - It's all about ME, ME & ME from the FA/Prem & to hell with the rest of you. Can't be allowed to happen! "In this instance, it's finally time for the 72 Football League chairmen and most importantly our chairman Greg Clarke to be strong to ensure this doesn't happen. "I'd wager next thing to happen is threat over next solidarity negotiation unless we all agree to this. Sounds familiar indeed." --- I see his point, they held the football league to ransom last time, what if they now say, either agree or no money.
It would be better to expand the loan criteria, so that clubs below the premiership can take more loan players from the premiership, maybe league 1 or below are paid to take under 21 players on loan. Another way to get money from the premiership to the lower leagues.
Comments
No one is allowed to know what it is (Unless its obviously Man City v Man Utd etc...) and they only announce it 5mins prior to Kick-Off, i.e. Jeff Stelling before going to a break on Soccer Saturday could say "Stay tuned after the break for the 3pm Kick-Offs, unless you want to see X v X which is kicking off over on Sky Sports One"
People's mindsets should then hopefully be: I want to see Liverpool v West Ham but had better go to the game in case its not the one shown on TV this week
Seems easier than having B teams that can/can't get promoted or have to be mainly under 21.
The man is a disingenuous fool.
If a big club falls through the leagues then do they lose their B teams if they fall to a lower enough league. Or is this the end of relegation from the Premiership / Championship ?
Some in the FA really have b*ll*cks for brains.
Once a player hits 18 then a clock starts ticking so to speak. Before they hit 20 they have to play x% of games they are eligible for (ie not injured). If they do not play this number of games they can leave on a free to join another club in the English football pyramid. If the club they join is at the same level as the club they leave then they have to be included in the 25 players registered.
This doesn't prevent young players from joining the top clubs but it does offer an incentive to play them. It would also filter down the leagues as players move on a free in search of games.
Clubs may lose potential future earnings if a player opts to leave but they'd also gain where a player opts to join. You also couldn't bury talent as the system requires you to use players if you want to keep them.
What they need to do is make the current joke of a system fair for all the FL clubs being robbed of their youth prospects and make the PL clubs pay a fair price. Talent can then develop playing in the FL for proper clubs and if they're good enough they'll always rise to the top. It's too cheap and easy to poach and basically creates a completely unfair competition favouring the glamour boys so they can stay on top.
They ain't going to fancy the Conference.
The gap between the U18s/U21s and a Premiership first team is enormous.
Another dismal attempt by the F.A. to be seen to be 'doing something' about the state of the national team and the game generally. I suspect it's more about pandering to the Premier League in order to try and cling on to the limited amount of power that they have left.
Here's an alternative idea - instead of completely diminishing and damaging the lower leagues, what about helping to fund the training of more qualified coaches, given the dismal numbers we have compared to Germany, Spain and Italy etc. ?
If this ridiculous idea gains any traction, I hope that supporters as a whole mobilise effectively against it.
bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27320402
He says "B teams are on the agenda but not a B team league."
So, how would that work? What's the point of creating teams but not a league for them to play in?
He also says interested parties have been consulted incl the Football League & Conference. But there's no mention of supporters....I assume none of the Trusts were consulted?
My views are the same as those expressed here already but I suspect many clubs would see it differently. Let's say you are chairman of Bury and see the possible £ signs from playing two games a year for each of Man Utd B and Man City B.
But if the alternative is more support being sucked away from Bury because supporters in Greater Manchester would be drifting off to more attractive fixtures like a Manchester B derby match, perhaps the Bury chairman might not be so keen.
I think I now understand why Man City's new training ground plans include the construction of a 7,000 seat capacity stadium.
Or is there anything to stop a PL team from 'adopting' a local non-league club as its 'B team'?
I don't see the point anyway: we already have the U21 and U18 leagues don't we? Isn't that the point of a 'B team', to keep talent fit and to develop them? Or would they rather future Premier League stars were cutting their teeth against 30 year old warhorses in the lower rungs of the FL or upper rungs of the conference?
The "B" team "theory" like most theories actually has some merit. It is of course not an uncommon practice in leagues across mainland Europe. You did not really think the FA came up with the idea on their own did you? The idea of young professionals playing in a team operating at a senior level actually playing men's football has been a gaping hole in the pace of the development of young players for it seems decades.
The loan system flatters to deceive because too often young players have to cope with a different coaches, managers team mates, systems and more often than not spend far too much time sitting on the bench. With certain players, with the right coaches and in the right circumstances it can work well but that tends to be the exception.
The concept is not unknown in English football. Charlton along with other professional clubs used to operate amateur or semi professional sides classified as "A" teams - we had a team I think in the Metropolitan League. It was effectively the 3rd XI - I recall seeing John Ryan, a big powerful centre forward (I think he was a policeman) stepping up 2 levels on occasion and once scoring an excellent headed goal.
The collapse of proper competitive reserve team football on financial grounds put the whole learning curve for younger players completely out of kilter. If you had ever watched a series of reserve games with youngsters playing alongside someone like Harry Cripps you would see the benefit. Most of those lads will have learned more about the game in a couple of competitive game situations with him than a whole season playing in the U21's.
The U21's has its value but for too many of the youngsters they will have been playing at that level for too long against the same opposition, sometimes for 3 seasons. The opportunities to really grow their game is quite limited.
The challenge (or in reality the terrifying prospect) of course comes with the implementation of any such plan. You just know those with the deepest pockets will take any and every opportunity to further promote their interests over everybody else. It is a decade or 2 since I had any interaction with the FA but I suspect little has changed from a group of mostly dedicated well meaning amateurs (no matter how many "names" they pitch up) trying to deal with a group of commercially astute Premier League owners intent on progressing their agenda. To put it politely I would not trust the collective buffoonery that is the FA to even understand half of the potential dangers to the game let alone protect it from even greater distortion/ corruption.
I am beginning to think the unthinkable, that the "game", as it approaches a tipping point where it will become completely unrecognisable as a genuine sporting enterprise, will "god forbid" need the government of the day to step in.
Well am sorry Danny but can you prove that Football League and Conference teams have been consulted because Luton Town fall into this very category
Segunda División B currently features 80 teams divided into 4 groups of 20. The top four teams from each group, 16 teams in total, qualify for play-offs to determine which four teams will replace the four teams relegated from the Liga Adelante. However reserve teams are only eligible for promotion to the Liga Adelante if their senior team is in the Liga BBVA. The top five teams from each group and best two teams regardless of group outside the previous twenty, excluding reserve teams, also qualify for the following seasons Copa del Rey. The bottom four teams in each league are relegated to the Tercera División. Also, the four 16th-placed teams enter into a relegation playoff to determine the two teams to be relegated. One team is paired with one of the others in home and away series. the two winners remain in the division while the losers are relegated. A reserve team can also be relegated if their senior team is relegated from the Liga Adelante. Along with teams from the Tercera División, teams from the division also compete in the Copa Federación.
So, a "B" team can't get promoted to the same league the "A" team plays in and if an "A" team gets relegated to the league the "B" team plays in, the "B" team gets relegated too! And "B" teams can't play in the main cup competition. Complicated or what?
(I assume the Copa Federación is a bit like our league cup and that "A" teams don't enter it - so maybe it's more like the Johnsons Paint really?)
There are four key points :
1. The formation of Premier League B teams – possibly within a new League 3
2. Strategic loan partnerships between PL, Championship and lower league teams
3. Reduction in non-home-grown players in a Premier League squad from 17 to 12, over 5 years.
4. No non-EU visas issued to players for clubs outside the Premier League
FA Commission want a new League Three in 16-17 made up of 10 Premier League B teams and 10 from the Conference.
Of the B team squad, 19 of the 25 should be under 21 and 20 of the 25 should qualify for the home-grown rule and no non-EU players.
No promotion for the B-Teams above League 1.
However, Italy have an annual and prestigious youth tournament which is taken very seriously. This is worked towards throughout the year. Rather than copy or even enter that though, screw over every single club from the Championship down. The FA truly are clueless.
personally i can't argue with it, will a new division really impact lower league clubs negatively? Where's the evidence?
Also how long before these B teams are full of EU passport holders and then we are back to square one.
It all seems very complicated. It makes it even harder for teams that would be in the conference to then get promoted to the football league. Imagine a club like Portsmouth getting relegated to the new league 3, and then having to compete with the likes of man u B and man city b to get back into the football league.
I will await to see what the full plans are before I fully pass judgement, but so far I don't like the concept. I love our football league, and don't want to see if ruined by the introduction of these new 'B' teams.
They ask for input during the "consultation period" and I'd hope that as fans, presumably through the Trust, we could provide some.
All they seem to care about is the performance of the national team and how they can assist the Premier League elite to shaft everyone else.
A classic is that Premier League teams claim can't now get all their 18-21 year-olds sufficient experience. Well, perhaps if the FA didn't assist them to poach other teams players there wouldn't be a problem in the first place.
There's also a suggestion that non-EU players shouldn't be permitted to play in any league but the Premier League. Here's Dyke's patronising comment in the report: "We believe that no players coming in on non-EU visas should be allowed to join clubs in any league in England other than the Premier League. The players are either of exceptional talent or they are not."
So, the FA believes that our league is just not allowed to have players of exceptional talent then?
"In this instance, it's finally time for the 72 Football League chairmen and most importantly our chairman Greg Clarke to be strong to ensure this doesn't happen.
"I'd wager next thing to happen is threat over next solidarity negotiation unless we all agree to this. Sounds familiar indeed." --- I see his point, they held the football league to ransom last time, what if they now say, either agree or no money.