Given the number of black players it does suggest a problem. The Rooney rule would help in making sure at least there's the prospect of an interview where they may not have been otherwise. Problems at the top with shortage of black chairmen no doubt a factor too (Wigan's Dave Whelan, from player to chairman, so it can be done).
Doesn't the number of black players suggest there isn't a problem? Or do Chairmen not have a problem with signing black players but do appointing a manager?
Given the number of black players it does suggest a problem. The Rooney rule would help in making sure at least there's the prospect of an interview where they may not have been otherwise. Problems at the top with shortage of black chairmen no doubt a factor too (Wigan's Dave Whelan, from player to chairman, so it can be done).
Doesn't the number of black players suggest there isn't a problem? Or do Chairmen not have a problem with signing black players but do appointing a manager?
The latter does seem likely doesn't it.
Not to me it doesn't. If a chairman wants what's best for his club it seems likely to me he'll appoint the best man for the job.
Hull City (Egypt) ... No Leicester City (Thailand) ... No Manchester City (UAE) ... No Queens Park Rangers (Malaysia / India) ... YES
Birmingham City (Hong Kong / China) ... No Blackburn Rovers (India) ... No Cardiff City (Malaysia) ... No Fulham (Pakistan) ... No Nottingham Forest (Kuwait) ... No
Sheffield United (Saudi Arabia) ... No
*I've deliberately left off Arsenal and Leeds and their foreign owners that fall under this example only have a maximum of 15% ownership
I said black not "non-white". I wouldn't class races as 1) white and 2) everybody else.
My point which was admiteddly a little abstract was that inequality runs deeper than just footballers and managers. I'm 100% with Stig at being a bit shocked by the amount of people ready to jump on the 'there's no racism' bandwagon. Society is racist. I'm not saying that this is the case with managers - I think maybe more black players need to step up to the plate after their careers are over - but I certainly wouldn't be saying there's no way racism isn't involved. It's a statistical certainty that it is at least a factor.
Someone else posted that the Rooney rule is bullshit. 6% of NFL head coaches were black before the ruling, 22% after.
Given the number of black players it does suggest a problem. The Rooney rule would help in making sure at least there's the prospect of an interview where they may not have been otherwise. Problems at the top with shortage of black chairmen no doubt a factor too (Wigan's Dave Whelan, from player to chairman, so it can be done).
Doesn't the number of black players suggest there isn't a problem? Or do Chairmen not have a problem with signing black players but do appointing a manager?
The latter does seem likely doesn't it.
Not to me it doesn't. If a chairman wants what's best for his club it seems likely to me he'll appoint the best man for the job.
I'm sure that chairmen do appoint the person that they believe would be best. But unless you live in some sort of eugenic weird world though, there is no reason to believe that white managers would be innately better than black managers. Clearly though the differing ratios of managers to players between black and white shows that chairmen are more likely to pick a white manager than a black manager. That doesn't mean that chairmen are deliberately acting in a racist manner, but it does indicate that somewhere in the system something (possibly many things) is going awry.
Given the number of black players it does suggest a problem. The Rooney rule would help in making sure at least there's the prospect of an interview where they may not have been otherwise. Problems at the top with shortage of black chairmen no doubt a factor too (Wigan's Dave Whelan, from player to chairman, so it can be done).
Doesn't the number of black players suggest there isn't a problem? Or do Chairmen not have a problem with signing black players but do appointing a manager?
The latter does seem likely doesn't it.
Not to me it doesn't. If a chairman wants what's best for his club it seems likely to me he'll appoint the best man for the job.
I'm sure that chairmen do appoint the person that they believe would be best. But unless you live in some sort of eugenic weird world though, there is no reason to believe that white managers would be innately better than black managers. Clearly though the differing ratios of managers to players between black and white shows that chairmen are more likely to pick a white manager than a black manager. That doesn't mean that chairmen are deliberately acting in a racist manner, but it does indicate that somewhere in the system something (possibly many things) is going awry.
But what's the ratio of white and black players that go on to take their coaching badges? If it's equal then yes I'd agree there may well be issue, but I've a feeling it won't be.
Given the number of black players it does suggest a problem. The Rooney rule would help in making sure at least there's the prospect of an interview where they may not have been otherwise. Problems at the top with shortage of black chairmen no doubt a factor too (Wigan's Dave Whelan, from player to chairman, so it can be done).
Doesn't the number of black players suggest there isn't a problem? Or do Chairmen not have a problem with signing black players but do appointing a manager?
The latter does seem likely doesn't it.
Not to me it doesn't. If a chairman wants what's best for his club it seems likely to me he'll appoint the best man for the job.
I'm sure that chairmen do appoint the person that they believe would be best. But unless you live in some sort of eugenic weird world though, there is no reason to believe that white managers would be innately better than black managers. Clearly though the differing ratios of managers to players between black and white shows that chairmen are more likely to pick a white manager than a black manager. That doesn't mean that chairmen are deliberately acting in a racist manner, but it does indicate that somewhere in the system something (possibly many things) is going awry.
But what's the ratio of white and black players that go on to take their coaching badges? If it's equal then yes I'd agree there may well be issue, but I've a feeling it won't be.
That could be a chicken and egg situation though? "Why bother when I have little chance of getting a job?"
Always appears to be a common theme / thread when these comments appear.
Its nearly always made by somebody who has been an abject failure in the role (like Barnes was at Celtic) who then tries to use the race card to get back in the game.
It doesn't help the cause to be honest.
You pick who is best for the job whatever race or creed.
There would be numerous cases in front of the race relations board if due process wasn't being followed.
In 10-20 years i think there will be more black managers.
This generation (and those from the last 10 years) of black players are more likely to take on their badges once retired and get into management then those leaving the game 20/30 years ago.
I don't believe for one second that a UK club wouldn't hire a manager just because of his skin colour. i just don't believe it. The problem with people like Barnes and Campbell is that they think they have some divine right to walk straight in at the top. Barnes was given a chance at a huge club, fucked it up and then struggled to get work. He then went to League One with Tranmere and what did he do?...fucked it up.
In 10-20 years i think there will be more black managers.
This generation (and those from the last 10 years) of black players are more likely to take on their badges once retired and get into management then those leaving the game 20/30 years ago.
I don't believe for one second that a UK club wouldn't hire a manager just because of his skin colour. i just don't believe it. The problem with people like Barnes and Campbell is that they think they have some divine right to walk straight in at the top. Barnes was given a chance at a huge club, fucked it up and then struggled to get work. He then went to League One with Tranmere and what did he do?...fucked it up.
Even now though, dont know if you saw the Programme interview with Chris Solly but he's on to his UEFA A Licence now, you dont seem to see others doing it from that sort of age
I think you will see less pro's from the top two divisions going into management because of the money in the game now, whether they are black or white.
In 10-20 years i think there will be more black managers.
This generation (and those from the last 10 years) of black players are more likely to take on their badges once retired and get into management then those leaving the game 20/30 years ago.
I don't believe for one second that a UK club wouldn't hire a manager just because of his skin colour. i just don't believe it. The problem with people like Barnes and Campbell is that they think they have some divine right to walk straight in at the top. Barnes was given a chance at a huge club, fucked it up and then struggled to get work. He then went to League One with Tranmere and what did he do?...fucked it up.
Even now though, dont know if you saw the Programme interview with Chris Solly but he's on to his UEFA A Licence now, you dont seem to see others doing it from that sort of age
Maybe Solly was thinking long term given his injury, protecting his future
Black people constantly claiming that their skin colour is the only reason they are not 'getting their just deserts in life' is a big impediment to truly great race relations in this country. Barnes joins a sadly ever lengthening list of the disaffected. He joins amongst others, Les Ferdinand who does hold a powerful role at a Premier League club but still moans about lack of opportunity for black ex-professional footballers in management. Anti white feeling amongst non white people is just as present and pernicious as is anti black/brown/yellow feelings amongst white people. And claims that white people as a mass are 'holding back' black people is simply another form of racism and racial stereotyping. For my part, every time I hear a black man claim words to the effect of 'it's coz I'm black', I get quite sad and angry, and when a black person DOES get a very good job, in whatever walk of life, a part of me often thinks: 'did he/she get that job simply because they are black ?' .. The thing is I have no idea where all this will lead. Chris Powell gets his jobs on merit, conversely, as has been pointed out elsewhere on here, John Barnes' record in football management hardly appears to justify his getting a job as manager of the Dog & Duck third team, let alone a professional outfit looking to prosper and progress
When a fully qualified black manager can provide a list of jobs they have applied for and the selected candidate is less qualified/experienced than them and white, then these claims might be taken a bit more seriously.
Well I'm glad this thread has cleared everything up. There's no innate conservatism or prejudice in football. The reason for the lack of black coaches and managers (or gay or Asian players for that matter) is just that they're all not good enough. Maybe if they knuckled down and worked harder rather than spending all their time playing the race card, we wouldn't be in this situation!
I agree that John Barnes isn't employed because he's consistently failed in managerial positions - even at Celtic, where you really have to be special to cock it up.
It's a lazy argument. There are only a handful of black managers, therefore football must be racist. The big problem for this argument is that the number of clubs who have employed black managers is considerably higher than the number of black managers currently employed. If they're prepared to employ black managers, one might reasonably conclude skin colour is no barrier at those clubs. And in fact the proportion of clubs who have had a black manager is slightly larger than the proportion of black players in the English game.
And can we even qualify and quantify this through understanding the proportion of black applicants for such positions? (I acknowledge that perception might be a barrier to application, but again how is that quantified?).
Even following his Damascene conversion to the ills of uncontrolled political correctness, Trevor Phillips fell into the same old trap in his recent documentary. Because Les Ferdinand - whose major qualification apparently is that he was a decent player - hasn't had people ringing him up to offer him a head coach position, the reason must be racism. Or could it be that most people don't get jobs that way - they get their qualifications, apply for jobs and see if they're the best candidate. All conveniently forgetting, of course, that actually Ferdinand is in a senior role at Tottenham.
Frankly when people like Sol Campbell and John Barnes - both, one would reasonably argue, unemployable in managerial positions for various reasons - complain they can't get the jobs they want because of racism it undermines a really important issue. In particular it trivialises the real problems faced by someone like Mark McCammon, for whom a tribunal found he was discriminated against by Gillingham purely because of his race.
You don't see many black jockeys. Horse racing must be racist. You don't see many black Olympic swimmers. Swimming must be racist. You don't see many white 100m Olympic finalists. Sprinters must be racist.
You could go on and on forever with this nonsense.
You don't know there are a lack of gay players to be fair.
Okay, so maybe there are lots of gay players who feel unable to come out. If that's the case, I think it reinforces my point rather than refuting it.
Blame the chairmen for crowd reaction as well then. I dunno all these racist, homophobic chairmen we've got here...
Sorry, I genuinely don't understand the point you're making. If you're suggesting that crowds react in racist and homophobic ways, then surely that in itself is evidence of prejudice in football? Again, apologies if I've misunderstood your point.
You don't see many black jockeys. Horse racing must be racist. You don't see many black Olympic swimmers. Swimming must be racist. You don't see many white 100m Olympic finalists. Sprinters must be racist.
You could go on and on forever with this nonsense.
I know next to nothing about horse racing, swimming or sprinting, so I'm not in a position to comment.
However, I do see lots of Asian kids playing the game and not progressing to the professional game. I do see lots of black British pros who don't progress to management.
@Gillis sorry I just didn't see the relevance with regards to employment, which is what this whole Barnes thing is about. I don't disagree there is prejudice in football, mostly from fans, I just don't see any evidence to suggest it's there for employment.
You don't know there are a lack of gay players to be fair.
Okay, so maybe there are lots of gay players who feel unable to come out. If that's the case, I think it reinforces my point rather than refuting it.
Blame the chairmen for crowd reaction as well then. I dunno all these racist, homophobic chairmen we've got here...
Sorry, I genuinely don't understand the point you're making. If you're suggesting that crowds react in racist and homophobic ways, then surely that in itself is evidence of prejudice in football? Again, apologies if I've misunderstood your point.
You don't see many black jockeys. Horse racing must be racist. You don't see many black Olympic swimmers. Swimming must be racist. You don't see many white 100m Olympic finalists. Sprinters must be racist.
You could go on and on forever with this nonsense.
I know next to nothing about horse racing, swimming or sprinting, so I'm not in a position to comment.
However, I do see lots of Asian kids playing the game and not progressing to the professional game. I do see lots of black British pros who don't progress to management.
So what did these Asian men say to you then ? (I mean the ones that you saw playing, but did not progress to the professional game). Did they tell you it's because English football is racist ?
Could there be other explanations ?
Could it be that they don't want to turn professional, because there is a lack of Asian Professionals ?
It doesn't make English football racist.
People often don't like "hanging out" where they feel different.
I don't enjoy collecting kids from school, when it's mainly mum's. It doesn't make the mums, anti men.
@Gillis sorry I just didn't see the relevance with regards to employment, which is what this whole Barnes thing is about. I don't disagree there is prejudice in football, mostly from fans, I just don't see any evidence to suggest it's there for employment.
Ah right, I'm with you now. It's been a long day! As @Stig said above, I think the picture is more complex than chairmen/owners outright dismissing candidates in a discriminatory way (although I wouldn't say it's impossible that some may do this). I do think, however, that prejudice (possibly to varying extents) at all levels of the game hampers the progress of players in the ways I've mentioned above. I'm not necessarily saying this is the case with John Barnes in particular; the thread seems to have broadened beyond that individual example.
So what did these Asian men say to you then ? (I mean the ones that you saw playing, but did not progress to the professional game). Did they tell you it's because English football is racist ?
Sorry to disappoint, but I haven't (yet) reached the point of wandering up to Asian players in my local park to ask why the haven't progressed to the professional game. Nor do I personally know any Asian men (or anyone else) who would've been good enough to ever make it professionally.
What I am reasonably sure of, however, is that there are many Asian boys and men who play football, and that this has been the case for some time. Despite this, there still don't appear to be many professional Asian players.
Could it be that they don't want to turn professional, because there is a lack of Asian Professionals ?
It doesn't make English football racist.
People often don't like "hanging out" where they feel different.
Perhaps that is part of the picture, but I doubt it's the whole picture. I'm also not sure that what you're describing is entirely removed from the issue of prejudice.
I don't enjoy collecting kids from school, when it's mainly mum's. It doesn't make the mums, anti men.
I'm not sure this is analogous to the issue we're discussing. How you feel as an adult man collecting your children from school among a group of mainly adult women, does not necessarily correspond to how a young boy would feel taking part in football training with other young boys (that is assuming that they are given the opportunity to take part in that training in the first place).
Comments
My point which was admiteddly a little abstract was that inequality runs deeper than just footballers and managers. I'm 100% with Stig at being a bit shocked by the amount of people ready to jump on the 'there's no racism' bandwagon. Society is racist. I'm not saying that this is the case with managers - I think maybe more black players need to step up to the plate after their careers are over - but I certainly wouldn't be saying there's no way racism isn't involved. It's a statistical certainty that it is at least a factor.
Someone else posted that the Rooney rule is bullshit. 6% of NFL head coaches were black before the ruling, 22% after.
Just a thought?
Its nearly always made by somebody who has been an abject failure in the role (like Barnes was at Celtic) who then tries to use the race card to get back in the game.
It doesn't help the cause to be honest.
You pick who is best for the job whatever race or creed.
There would be numerous cases in front of the race relations board if due process wasn't being followed.
Pathetic by Barnes (and Les Ferdinand too).
This generation (and those from the last 10 years) of black players are more likely to take on their badges once retired and get into management then those leaving the game 20/30 years ago.
I don't believe for one second that a UK club wouldn't hire a manager just because of his skin colour. i just don't believe it. The problem with people like Barnes and Campbell is that they think they have some divine right to walk straight in at the top. Barnes was given a chance at a huge club, fucked it up and then struggled to get work. He then went to League One with Tranmere and what did he do?...fucked it up.
Anti white feeling amongst non white people is just as present and pernicious as is anti black/brown/yellow feelings amongst white people. And claims that white people as a mass are 'holding back' black people is simply another form of racism and racial stereotyping.
For my part, every time I hear a black man claim words to the effect of 'it's coz I'm black', I get quite sad and angry, and when a black person DOES get a very good job, in whatever walk of life, a part of me often thinks: 'did he/she get that job simply because they are black ?' .. The thing is I have no idea where all this will lead. Chris Powell gets his jobs on merit, conversely, as has been pointed out elsewhere on here, John Barnes' record in football management hardly appears to justify his getting a job as manager of the Dog & Duck third team, let alone a professional outfit looking to prosper and progress
It's a lazy argument. There are only a handful of black managers, therefore football must be racist. The big problem for this argument is that the number of clubs who have employed black managers is considerably higher than the number of black managers currently employed. If they're prepared to employ black managers, one might reasonably conclude skin colour is no barrier at those clubs. And in fact the proportion of clubs who have had a black manager is slightly larger than the proportion of black players in the English game.
And can we even qualify and quantify this through understanding the proportion of black applicants for such positions? (I acknowledge that perception might be a barrier to application, but again how is that quantified?).
Even following his Damascene conversion to the ills of uncontrolled political correctness, Trevor Phillips fell into the same old trap in his recent documentary. Because Les Ferdinand - whose major qualification apparently is that he was a decent player - hasn't had people ringing him up to offer him a head coach position, the reason must be racism. Or could it be that most people don't get jobs that way - they get their qualifications, apply for jobs and see if they're the best candidate. All conveniently forgetting, of course, that actually Ferdinand is in a senior role at Tottenham.
Frankly when people like Sol Campbell and John Barnes - both, one would reasonably argue, unemployable in managerial positions for various reasons - complain they can't get the jobs they want because of racism it undermines a really important issue. In particular it trivialises the real problems faced by someone like Mark McCammon, for whom a tribunal found he was discriminated against by Gillingham purely because of his race.
And John Barnes should know better, frankly.
You don't see many black Olympic swimmers. Swimming must be racist.
You don't see many white 100m Olympic finalists. Sprinters must be racist.
You could go on and on forever with this nonsense.
However, I do see lots of Asian kids playing the game and not progressing to the professional game. I do see lots of black British pros who don't progress to management.
Could there be other explanations ?
Could it be that they don't want to turn professional, because there is a lack of Asian Professionals ?
It doesn't make English football racist.
People often don't like "hanging out" where they feel different.
I don't enjoy collecting kids from school, when it's mainly mum's. It doesn't make the mums, anti men.
What I am reasonably sure of, however, is that there are many Asian boys and men who play football, and that this has been the case for some time. Despite this, there still don't appear to be many professional Asian players. Perhaps that is part of the picture, but I doubt it's the whole picture. I'm also not sure that what you're describing is entirely removed from the issue of prejudice. I'm not sure this is analogous to the issue we're discussing. How you feel as an adult man collecting your children from school among a group of mainly adult women, does not necessarily correspond to how a young boy would feel taking part in football training with other young boys (that is assuming that they are given the opportunity to take part in that training in the first place).