[cite]Posted By: AFKA Bartram[/cite]Bing, blanket referring to those that stand and sing as morons isn't going to help any argument.
AFKA, if you read my post, I was specifically not blanketing all those that stand as "morons". Here is what I said
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]Come on Ben/ Henry, if you cannot talk about specifics, can you reassure us that the club will take steps to root out these morons? It would not be difficult to work out who was allocated the seats so that the people causing this problem can be identified ?
I recognise that exuberance can play a part and people can get carried away in the passion of the moment. I was referring to those fans who when asked to sit down, refused and were rude and abusive and particularly those around LA's Dad.
As for your point about the old days. Your qualified remarks are correct, I was not involved personally in fighting although it went on around me. I don't know who mentioned coshes, it certainly wasn't me.
The point is the game is the better for the removal of violence during the game. It doesn't mean that there should not be passion and anybody unlucky enough to sit near me will testify to my passion for our club and the vocal way I express it both in shouting and singing. I think this argument you are trying to make, whilst I understand it, is taking things down a blind alley. You are trying to apply compromise to a situation where stadia design and law does not allow it. If somebody is seriously injured at a ground due to standing, the law will be applied heavily and at huge cost to clubs. That's why they cannot condone this and have to act.
Bing- It seems to me that everyone involved in this thread is trying to find a solution to this problem. Everyone ( i think ) has agreed that both standing fans and sitting fans are vital to the club and a solution should try to be made to accomadate both. A few short term solutions have been offered up but the only person actively rejecting any form of short term solution is you. You are the only person on this thread who wants to completely stamp out standing at games unless it is legal. You're the one that is isolating a large section of our support. The generally louder section and younger section.
Why is it that while everyone is trying to find a short term solution such as requesting seats near the front or back whaterver your preference is that it is only you that has not comprimised and has alienated a large section of fellow charlton fans?
Thanks... i feel that people like bing rekon they can use their ' higher intelligence' to outwit these 'morons' that stand as they beleive they are all drunk all the time and uneducated beasts.
It's not true that all of us who stand and wear baseball caps and all that lark are stupid. We are just different to him and enjoy a different matchday experience.
I don't see why just because of this a soltution to the problem shouldn't be sought out.
[cite]Posted By: The Boat[/cite]Thanks... i feel that people like bing rekon they can use their ' higher intelligence' to outwit these 'morons' that stand as they beleive they are all drunk all the time and uneducated beasts.
Before you get too carried away with self congratulation, I think you should
a) read my posts more carefully:
I have not used the term "drunks" (accept in contrast to you who was talking in sweeping terms about "flaskers")
I have only used the word "morons" to describe those who were specifically refusing to sit down in front of LA's Dad and who he referred to as rude.
I have never used the phrase "uneducated beasts"
I also did not mention the wearing of baseball caps
Perhaps its somebody else you should be attacking?
b) Consider this:
As for enjoying a different match day experience. That's great. I have already said that I am in favour of standing areas. I could not be clearer. It is you and a few others who don't like the truth which is that your enjoyment in standing in seated areas can be at the expense of those who have a legitimate right to expect you not to stand in front of them. (Please don't tell me that you are happy to sit down if somebody behind you objects because it doesn't work like that unless you are in the front row because there are always rows of people standing in front of you).
Some situations allow for accommodation and compromise. Others do not. This is one that doesn't. I would love it that a "tacit" approval ticket allocation process could allow people who want to stand only to get tickets at the back. It's a great idea until you put it to the test. You are asking the club, acting as agents for another club, to connive in this, by allowing a bunch of fans to breach the grounds safety certificate. IT JUST AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
If you conclude as I do, then the only other way to keep people like LA's Dad and my son from having their match experienced ruined is to enforce the rules. It's hard on those who want to stand. They have then have to decide, do they still want to go or not. 99.9% will put up with it.
self congratulation? .. someone said for my age i posted quite intelligently and i thanked them. If you ask me that is just simply courtesey.
and anyway i wan't misquoting you i was using a generalisation which is commonly used by people like you when you stereotype fans like myself.
I am not sad enough to trawl through every post you make picking at the nitty gritty stuff all i'm doing is making my point. I have already done this and said everything i have to say on the matter.
I don't want to get into some petty internet feud with you so don't try to lure me into one.
PS . 99.9% will put up for it. For someone who is soo intent on questioning every statement people like stu and myself make about being louder when standing i think this is quite a bolt statement to make. Have you conducted a survey on this.. has a Scientific investigation been conducted? Hypocritical me thinks.
No doubt you will now get in a huff and point out countless flaws in my writing style and arument.
[cite]Posted By: The Boat[/cite]I don't want to get into some petty internet feud with you so don't try to lure me into one.
I don't either. I am happy to let it rest. I can't put my case any better. I tried as much as possible to stick to the thrust of the argument but I felt your previous post was starting to get personal. Lets not descend into personal attack, agree to disagree and move on.
as i mentioned before, i dont really see this as much of a problem for there to be such an outcry over this. How many games have sold out? Not many. For most games you can sit where you like. For the other games, yes it is unfortunate that some are forced to stand but the majority of those who stand will if asked sit. It is the odd person but that such is life.
It seems to me that there are a few people on here who don't like the type of fan that has a beer, likes to stand and is a younger fan. It doesn't fit into the happy clapper pc image that many want to promote.
JB, I assure you I don't have a problem with drinking and the younger fan. I also have already said that I recognise that passions can be high and exuberance can cut in. I leap out of my seat and hug total strangers when we score. I just sit down once the game restarts. I am objecting to rude inconsiderate fans who will not sit down in front of people who have an total right to have their wishes respected in an all seater stadium. So I conclude that seating must be enforced as the alternatives are unworkable or lead to more and more arguments between fans.
Let me try to put my point another way with an insight into my attempts to watch our games.
Despite trying to get home for matches as often as possible, the truth is that I miss most games and have to rely alot on live TV games. I consequently look forward to these games. However I live in France and to my continual annoyance I find that everyone else is not eagerly anticipating a Charlton kick-off. In other words I sometimes get to the pub, as yesterday, to be told something like:
'Oh well, you see, we've decided to show the cricket.'
Me: 'But I rang yesterday and was told you'd be showing Charlton v Reading'
Reply: 'Sorry' (plus shrug of the shoulders).
Thankfully I found the game in another bar although I was still told 'we'll have to turn the sound off soon though off as a live band are coming'
So, anyway, I was sitting watching the game behind some people who looked like they were planning a marketing campaign or something (no-one really cared about the band either). The first time I made a loud exclamation - I think when Elk hit the bar - I made the woman jump out of her chair in fright and people looked at me as if I were a loud nutter.
In these situations I have often had a voice in my head saying 'It a f****** bar for God's sake. I'm watching Charlton. It's a big match. You lot are tossers.' But the fact is I'm wrong to think like that. In France being in a bar doesn't give you the right to sing and shout to the disturbance of everyone, even if the football is on. I, as much as it pains me, may have to consider the fact that other people are not there for the same reason. This is consideration for others and you cannot just say that 'everyone else looks after number one, so why shouldn't I' That attitude just begins a downward spiral and if you think like that you have to take a serious look at yourself. Why not try to be better than this supposed 'everyone else'. You may even end up realising that 'everyone else' doesn't actually think like that.
There are times, of course, when you have to stick up for yourself. Like the time Charlton were losing 2-0 at Man U and the pub landlord decided it was OK to turn over to the rugby. A load of rugby fans had just arrived in the pub and the landlord agreed to turn it over despite the fact that I'd been there watching my match for 85 minutes. I didn't accept that and practically got thrown out as result when I stood in front of the screen in protest blocking their view singing Charlton songs. When they protested I explained that I'd been there long before they arrived (please note that by this time our game had now finished whilst the rugby teams were still singing the national anthems!)
On some occasions though you have to accept that other people have just as much right to see their game. That's why yesterday when I arrived I didn't protest. There were more cricket fans there than Charlton fans. They had payed their their money. On another occasion I persuaded some rugby fans to wait 10 minutes arguing correctly that 5 other people were watching the football.
All in all, it needs simple consideration of others and the humility to accept that your way isn't always right.
The same pricipal applies to the subject of this thread. This though time it's simpler. We are one set of supporters with one match to watch. Please let others watch the game.
Nobody wants to fall out with fellow Addicks who have all paid a lot of dosh and suffered hours of tedious journey's to get to the game, I certainly don't. My son and I came from Norwich by coach and train. In addition to the cost of tickets, I shelled out £90 for return train fare, and £100 for overnight accommodation. My son has learning and behavioural difficulties which add to the strains of getting there and back. I take him because he loves to go and I love to follow my beloved team. I am not saying this to get some medal, we all jump through hoops to support our club. I would just hope that everybody can ensure that they do not block the enjoyment of their fellow fans by inconsiderate behaviour. That's all.
Not wanting to fan the flames, but it is kind of obvious that you can sing louder when standing than sitting. I don't need a scientific study to tell me that. The evidence of my own experience and the fact that every opera singer and choir stand to sing would surely back that up.
The fact is that the vast majority of fans have stood at games (and still do if they ever go to lower league games) and a unscientific and provably wrong study linking standing to violence and danger isn't going to effect the desire for many to stand.
Obviously people being rude, insulting or threatening is indefensible, but their desire to stand is understandable. When you are excited or passionate you naturally rise to your feet. Watch the crowd at the valley, it happens everytime a chance is created. At grounds like city where you're very low down you almost have to stand to get a view of anything more than 30 yards from the nearest goal.
It may be the case that singing is louder when standing. I'm sure that's the case with Opera singers/Choirs etc. I have some considerable personal experience of this. Its all to do with extending the diaphragm which is essential for good breath control. Most non Opera singers basically sing from the throat and don't need to call upon breath control techniques. I'm sceptical that you can apply the Opera singer test to singing/chanting at football.
Anyway, that is really a side issue. The main issue is people blocking the view of those who quite legitimately want to remain seated within the context of the stadium rules and safety. If there is a pragmatic way to allocate seats so that those who want to stand can be at the back, as some have argued here, then I would support that. I am sceptical about whether this is going to happen but it would be a way through. It would then be down to local stewarding to determine how zealous they apply the rules. What is not acceptable is people rudely spoiling others enjoyment and taunting them for wanting to do the very thing they bought their ticket for.
Comments
AFKA, if you read my post, I was specifically not blanketing all those that stand as "morons". Here is what I said
I recognise that exuberance can play a part and people can get carried away in the passion of the moment. I was referring to those fans who when asked to sit down, refused and were rude and abusive and particularly those around LA's Dad.
As for your point about the old days. Your qualified remarks are correct, I was not involved personally in fighting although it went on around me. I don't know who mentioned coshes, it certainly wasn't me.
The point is the game is the better for the removal of violence during the game. It doesn't mean that there should not be passion and anybody unlucky enough to sit near me will testify to my passion for our club and the vocal way I express it both in shouting and singing. I think this argument you are trying to make, whilst I understand it, is taking things down a blind alley. You are trying to apply compromise to a situation where stadia design and law does not allow it. If somebody is seriously injured at a ground due to standing, the law will be applied heavily and at huge cost to clubs. That's why they cannot condone this and have to act.
Why is it that while everyone is trying to find a short term solution such as requesting seats near the front or back whaterver your preference is that it is only you that has not comprimised and has alienated a large section of fellow charlton fans?
It's not true that all of us who stand and wear baseball caps and all that lark are stupid. We are just different to him and enjoy a different matchday experience.
I don't see why just because of this a soltution to the problem shouldn't be sought out.
Before you get too carried away with self congratulation, I think you should
a) read my posts more carefully:
I have not used the term "drunks" (accept in contrast to you who was talking in sweeping terms about "flaskers")
I have only used the word "morons" to describe those who were specifically refusing to sit down in front of LA's Dad and who he referred to as rude.
I have never used the phrase "uneducated beasts"
I also did not mention the wearing of baseball caps
Perhaps its somebody else you should be attacking?
b) Consider this:
As for enjoying a different match day experience. That's great. I have already said that I am in favour of standing areas. I could not be clearer. It is you and a few others who don't like the truth which is that your enjoyment in standing in seated areas can be at the expense of those who have a legitimate right to expect you not to stand in front of them. (Please don't tell me that you are happy to sit down if somebody behind you objects because it doesn't work like that unless you are in the front row because there are always rows of people standing in front of you).
Some situations allow for accommodation and compromise. Others do not. This is one that doesn't. I would love it that a "tacit" approval ticket allocation process could allow people who want to stand only to get tickets at the back. It's a great idea until you put it to the test. You are asking the club, acting as agents for another club, to connive in this, by allowing a bunch of fans to breach the grounds safety certificate. IT JUST AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
If you conclude as I do, then the only other way to keep people like LA's Dad and my son from having their match experienced ruined is to enforce the rules. It's hard on those who want to stand. They have then have to decide, do they still want to go or not. 99.9% will put up with it.
and anyway i wan't misquoting you i was using a generalisation which is commonly used by people like you when you stereotype fans like myself.
I am not sad enough to trawl through every post you make picking at the nitty gritty stuff all i'm doing is making my point. I have already done this and said everything i have to say on the matter.
I don't want to get into some petty internet feud with you so don't try to lure me into one.
PS . 99.9% will put up for it. For someone who is soo intent on questioning every statement people like stu and myself make about being louder when standing i think this is quite a bolt statement to make. Have you conducted a survey on this.. has a Scientific investigation been conducted? Hypocritical me thinks.
No doubt you will now get in a huff and point out countless flaws in my writing style and arument.
how did i know that one of you would immediately prove how clever and superior you are to me with such a witty remark..?
I don't either. I am happy to let it rest. I can't put my case any better. I tried as much as possible to stick to the thrust of the argument but I felt your previous post was starting to get personal. Lets not descend into personal attack, agree to disagree and move on.
I think he's on the wind up.
Yeh i agree we have both made our points.
It seems to me that there are a few people on here who don't like the type of fan that has a beer, likes to stand and is a younger fan. It doesn't fit into the happy clapper pc image that many want to promote.
Despite trying to get home for matches as often as possible, the truth is that I miss most games and have to rely alot on live TV games. I consequently look forward to these games. However I live in France and to my continual annoyance I find that everyone else is not eagerly anticipating a Charlton kick-off. In other words I sometimes get to the pub, as yesterday, to be told something like:
'Oh well, you see, we've decided to show the cricket.'
Me: 'But I rang yesterday and was told you'd be showing Charlton v Reading'
Reply: 'Sorry' (plus shrug of the shoulders).
Thankfully I found the game in another bar although I was still told 'we'll have to turn the sound off soon though off as a live band are coming'
So, anyway, I was sitting watching the game behind some people who looked like they were planning a marketing campaign or something (no-one really cared about the band either). The first time I made a loud exclamation - I think when Elk hit the bar - I made the woman jump out of her chair in fright and people looked at me as if I were a loud nutter.
In these situations I have often had a voice in my head saying 'It a f****** bar for God's sake. I'm watching Charlton. It's a big match. You lot are tossers.' But the fact is I'm wrong to think like that. In France being in a bar doesn't give you the right to sing and shout to the disturbance of everyone, even if the football is on. I, as much as it pains me, may have to consider the fact that other people are not there for the same reason. This is consideration for others and you cannot just say that 'everyone else looks after number one, so why shouldn't I' That attitude just begins a downward spiral and if you think like that you have to take a serious look at yourself. Why not try to be better than this supposed 'everyone else'. You may even end up realising that 'everyone else' doesn't actually think like that.
There are times, of course, when you have to stick up for yourself. Like the time Charlton were losing 2-0 at Man U and the pub landlord decided it was OK to turn over to the rugby. A load of rugby fans had just arrived in the pub and the landlord agreed to turn it over despite the fact that I'd been there watching my match for 85 minutes. I didn't accept that and practically got thrown out as result when I stood in front of the screen in protest blocking their view singing Charlton songs. When they protested I explained that I'd been there long before they arrived (please note that by this time our game had now finished whilst the rugby teams were still singing the national anthems!)
On some occasions though you have to accept that other people have just as much right to see their game. That's why yesterday when I arrived I didn't protest. There were more cricket fans there than Charlton fans. They had payed their their money. On another occasion I persuaded some rugby fans to wait 10 minutes arguing correctly that 5 other people were watching the football.
All in all, it needs simple consideration of others and the humility to accept that your way isn't always right.
The same pricipal applies to the subject of this thread. This though time it's simpler. We are one set of supporters with one match to watch. Please let others watch the game.
Nobody wants to fall out with fellow Addicks who have all paid a lot of dosh and suffered hours of tedious journey's to get to the game, I certainly don't. My son and I came from Norwich by coach and train. In addition to the cost of tickets, I shelled out £90 for return train fare, and £100 for overnight accommodation. My son has learning and behavioural difficulties which add to the strains of getting there and back. I take him because he loves to go and I love to follow my beloved team. I am not saying this to get some medal, we all jump through hoops to support our club. I would just hope that everybody can ensure that they do not block the enjoyment of their fellow fans by inconsiderate behaviour. That's all.
As an example have a look at this link:
http://www.alexandervoiceworks.com/voice_work_and_singing_lessons.html#workshops
Notice how in all the pictures of people singing are standing. This is because it is easier to project and to breath when standing, rather than bent over in a seat.
The fact is that the vast majority of fans have stood at games (and still do if they ever go to lower league games) and a unscientific and provably wrong study linking standing to violence and danger isn't going to effect the desire for many to stand.
Obviously people being rude, insulting or threatening is indefensible, but their desire to stand is understandable. When you are excited or passionate you naturally rise to your feet. Watch the crowd at the valley, it happens everytime a chance is created. At grounds like city where you're very low down you almost have to stand to get a view of anything more than 30 yards from the nearest goal.
Anyway, that is really a side issue. The main issue is people blocking the view of those who quite legitimately want to remain seated within the context of the stadium rules and safety. If there is a pragmatic way to allocate seats so that those who want to stand can be at the back, as some have argued here, then I would support that. I am sceptical about whether this is going to happen but it would be a way through. It would then be down to local stewarding to determine how zealous they apply the rules. What is not acceptable is people rudely spoiling others enjoyment and taunting them for wanting to do the very thing they bought their ticket for.