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  • Aiyawatt Raksriaksorn has spent £120m since 2010. Wow!

    I'm looking forward to seeing how this pans out. Football that can support itself financially would be a dream, I fear none the less that it may remain a dream.

    Does anyone have an idea what exact part of FFP the four said teams are objecting to?
  • PopIcon said:

    Aiyawatt Raksriaksorn has spent £120m since 2010. Wow!

    We'll still beat them on saturday :-)
  • Well well well... Surprised its taken them this long

    And it'll be laughable when the clubs spending big amounts moan about the point deductions after going into Administration...
  • The real significance of this is that it's the first step on the way to EPL2.
  • The real significance of this is that it's the first step on the way to EPL2.

    Agreed. The Football League will say to the clubs "these are our rules & if you don't like them, don't play in our league." Which will take the bigger, dissenting clubs running to the Premier League saying " we are being punished for being ambitious & investing shed loads of money. We need to join a new league run under your rules, not the rules of the Football League."

    Welcome to EPL2.
  • EPL 2? Don't think so.

    Give it 10 years and the PL and Champions League will be dissolved in favour of a European Super League.

    Football is unsustainable currently. For how long will the likes of Sky, BT and Al Jazeera keep pumping billions into the football coffers just for the rights to show Stoke City v WBA when they could be showing the likes of Ars*nal v Barca, Citeh v Bayern Munich etc on a weekly basis?

    UEFA will be all over it as it will share the tv wealth across Europe.

    Do you really think Platini & Co really give a damn about the lower echelons of the footballing pyramid?

    Sad but inevitable.
  • edited February 2014
    JohnBoyUK said:

    EPL 2? Don't think so.

    Give it 10 years and the PL and Champions League will be dissolved in favour of a European Super League.

    Football is unsustainable currently. For how long will the likes of Sky, BT and Al Jazeera keep pumping billions into the football coffers just for the rights to show Stoke City v WBA when they could be showing the likes of Ars*nal v Barca, Citeh v Bayern Munich etc on a weekly basis?

    UEFA will be all over it as it will share the tv wealth across Europe.

    Do you really think Platini & Co really give a damn about the lower echelons of the footballing pyramid?

    Sad but inevitable.

    I'm not sure I quite agree about this. The broadcasters want to show the 'big' games that involve the challengers for the title. The CL falls into that category because they fix the groups and then all of the big European teams 'can' win it. If you have a Super League and Arsenal and Barcelona are both nine points behind the leaders that game will be the 'Stoke v WBA'. Newcastle and Sunderland are both about as well supported (in terms of attendances) as many of the 'big' European sides but Sky don't drool over them.

    I think teams like Arsenal would disappear from the public's radar if they fell out of the Champions League - look at Liverpool, this is the first season anyone talked about them for a few years. A European Super League could turn our big clubs from potential Champions into also rans. For this reason I think it'll stay as it is with the Champions League getting a little bigger, with the caveat that they will always 'ensure' that the big sides get a 'bye' into the knock out stages.
  • I think the League needs to stand firm on FFP. I find it quite disgusting that footballers and agents are queuing up to challenge the rules as their incomes are being cut!
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  • An EPL2 would not really fly because it would not have anything like the commercial value of the proper top flight - the TV people are well aware of this which is why it has not happened in the 22 years the EPL has been around!

    Once you take out Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Man City then what other real viewing pullers are there? Villa, Everton, Newcastle? No chance.

    Once you get to EPL 2 then you are looking at Huddersfield, Leicester, Derby and Millwall - good luck selling that in the pay TV markets of Asia!
  • An EPL2 would not really fly because it would not have anything like the commercial value of the proper top flight - the TV people are well aware of this which is why it has not happened in the 22 years the EPL has been around!

    Once you take out Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Man City then what other real viewing pullers are there? Villa, Everton, Newcastle? No chance.

    Once you get to EPL 2 then you are looking at Huddersfield, Leicester, Derby and Millwall - good luck selling that in the pay TV markets of Asia!

    I was thinking of maybe only needing about 8 to 10 teams breaking away from the FL to join the EPL, so not Millwall, Donny, Barnsley, Huddersfield and maybe not CAFC either, unfortunately, as it looks pretty clear RD likes FFP. It could still have more commercial value than the Championship now, especially if they opted for an arcane USA style setup with lots of play-offs and the 8 or 10 getting to play the big clubs at least once per year.

    The 8 or 10 currently could be picked from, say, Leicester, Derby, Forest, Reading, Bolton, Blackburn, Wolves, Brighton (in spite of their protestations that they love FFP, would they want to miss out?), Ipswich, Wigan, Middlesbro. They wouldn't be any less attractive than the likes of Norwich, Hull, Palarse, etc. The basis of selecting them would be EPL culture, i.e. a willingness to piss millions down the drain. That generates excitement, in the EPL world view.

    Another point: the FL is now potentially in a cleft stick. If it gives in to or loses a court battle with the clubs who break the FFP rules, the clubs who have tried to abide by the rules would have an equally strong case for legal action.
  • JohnBoyUK said:

    EPL 2? Don't think so.

    Give it 10 years and the PL and Champions League will be dissolved in favour of a European Super League.

    Football is unsustainable currently. For how long will the likes of Sky, BT and Al Jazeera keep pumping billions into the football coffers just for the rights to show Stoke City v WBA when they could be showing the likes of Ars*nal v Barca, Citeh v Bayern Munich etc on a weekly basis?

    UEFA will be all over it as it will share the tv wealth across Europe.

    Do you really think Platini & Co really give a damn about the lower echelons of the footballing pyramid?

    Sad but inevitable.

    been thinking we've been heading towards a european super league for years. Completely agree.
  • I think the League needs to stand firm on FFP. I find it quite disgusting that footballers and agents are queuing up to challenge the rules as their incomes are being cut!

    Would it be so surprising that its the Agents that are telling the Footballers this... the latter mainly wanna play football (when it comes to being in the Football League) and provided they're on a sustainable wage would they really care

    Can just imagine the Agents thinking that they'll get less of a fee so its their own income they're worried about (Greedy feckers)
  • I think FFP is good for a lot of owners because it gives them the excuse to not have to constantly pump millions of pounds in, and actually view their club as an investment rather than a bottomless pit that you have to fill with money.
  • Huskaris said:

    I think FFP is good for a lot of owners because it gives them the excuse to not have to constantly pump millions of pounds in, and actually view their club as an investment rather than a bottomless pit that you have to fill with money.

    I wonder without the FFP ruling if Roland would have bought us
  • JohnBoyUK said:

    EPL 2? Don't think so.

    Give it 10 years and the PL and Champions League will be dissolved in favour of a European Super League.

    Football is unsustainable currently. For how long will the likes of Sky, BT and Al Jazeera keep pumping billions into the football coffers just for the rights to show Stoke City v WBA when they could be showing the likes of Ars*nal v Barca, Citeh v Bayern Munich etc on a weekly basis?

    UEFA will be all over it as it will share the tv wealth across Europe.

    Do you really think Platini & Co really give a damn about the lower echelons of the footballing pyramid?

    Sad but inevitable.

    One of the best quotes I have read. Very simply, football has been eroded from the age of physically supporting your team by paying money to go and watch them, to one that TV and the money behind it, has stolen a generation of fans. The marketing & branding behind the PL and CL right now puts people off supporting their local club, prices fans out of games and gives big clubs superfluous armchair fans that just don't get it.

    My colleague (A New Zealand(er) who is a Man City fan) is exactly the type monster the whole Sky TV generation has created. He lives and works in London, doubt he was into football prior to coming to the UK, arrives over here and picks, Man City? He's been here since 2005 and said he picked them straight away, but it's a big coincidence that he's a City fan in their most successful era.

    I'm sure we all know of people like this. These people are inadvertently killing the game, along with the likes of Sky, BT and UEFA. They have had a taste of mega money, and want more. They do not care for individual clubs who die along the way. Hell, even if Ambramovich pulled his money from Chelsea tomorrow and they went bust, there will always be a replacement club, because a football team is a must have icon for today's modern billionaire.

    I believe that will be the litmus test. If one of these so called big team's plummet into financial danger, what will the reaction will be? But I fear football has been branded in such a way that there will always be some other rich mug to step in and keep the status quo.
  • Not unexpected but very early in the game. Any club threatening legal action like this should be forced to withdraw from the league! They don't like the rules agreed by a massive majority then they know where they can go. I wonder what Brighton's stance is as they have openly sacrificed competitiveness in order to comply.

    The only workable alternative to FFP is a Premier League 2 (first mooted by Richard Murray)or to abolish promotion and relegation and follow the American model.
    Whilst Tv companies are not that into our level I have to ask what is the real difference between us, Swansea, Reading and Palace etc. Similar gates, similar history and very occasional appearances at Wembley (our turn next!). I don't know precise numbers but I am guessing that the Premier League Tv rights is probably close to NFL as one of the biggest deals on the planet. I don't have a problem with that but would love to see it shared down to our level. In the meantime we get on with it and be sure to contact key figures in the game to ensure that FFP remains intact.
  • There is a reason why the European "Super" league hasn't happened despite various parties promoting it for at least 20 years.

    That is because at least some half - sensible people (and Platini falls in to that category) realise that if you have a league, you have games that just don't matter much. Imagine, towards the end of the season, in a 16 team league. Let's say Schalke in 7th place play Juventus in 9th. Who's going to watch that?

    The FAPL or any other league hav their dead games too, but they have many games which are attractive because they are derbies or semi-derbies, and the league position doesnt matter so much. A European league can never have that.

    That of course will not stop a lot of idiots continuing to push the idea.
  • There's a weakness in the legal challenge however, if indeed it's come from Leicester as it's reported. The FL membership, of which Leicester is one, agreed to them.
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  • edited February 2014
    JohnBoyUK said:

    EPL 2? Don't think so.

    Give it 10 years and the PL and Champions League will be dissolved in favour of a European Super League.

    Football is unsustainable currently. For how long will the likes of Sky, BT and Al Jazeera keep pumping billions into the football coffers just for the rights to show Stoke City v WBA when they could be showing the likes of Ars*nal v Barca, Citeh v Bayern Munich etc on a weekly basis?

    UEFA will be all over it as it will share the tv wealth across Europe.

    Do you really think Platini & Co really give a damn about the lower echelons of the footballing pyramid?

    Sad but inevitable.



    I'm not so sure about this . I think they might kill the golden Goose if they are not careful and pulled clubs away from their domestic leagues.

    How many English clubs would make the cut in a European Super League of 20 ? Three ? at the very most four? That would make up 20% of the league.So would Italy and Spain have similar representation ?What about France and Germany ? What about other iconic clubs like Ajax and Benfica ?

    So how would this be decided ? If it was based on league positions this season then the biggest club in the country Manchester United would miss out and for the last 2 years the second biggest club Liverpool have not played in the Champions League .If eligibility were based on history and tradition those two would have the strongest claim to represent England.

    Who would represent London? I can't see the Super league housing Arsenal,Chelsea and Spurs . At least one possibly two of those clubs would miss out . As well as the big European games BT Sports,Sky etc also like showing games like Arsenal V Spurs and Everton V Liverpool. These fixtures may disappear for ever if there was a European Super League that had no relationship with the domestic game. What game do Gooners or Spurs fans most look forward to?

    The Champions League itself is the compromise and I could see it being expanded. This is the reason our domestic Cups have been downgraded , if we had played Arsenal or Citeh in the third round then I suspect we would have played a rotated side with powerful options on the bench rather like we did with Spurs 3 years ago when Modric only came on when Harry realised he needed to bring on a big gun to change the game. I suspect if we play one of them at Wembley it will be the only scenario that our players would play their full strength line up.

    The top teams can now play completely different teams to keep up with the fixture pile ups. In their hey day in the 70's there used to be a boast that Liverpool reserves could hold their own in the old second division (AKA the Championship), I'm sure now the top teams could probably have second 11's that would at least secure Europa League qualification.

    I might be wrong but I don't think the umbilical cord will be severed completely. I do think EPL2 will probably happen and the gap then with Leagues One and Two might become larger.
  • My fear was that clubs would always find a way out of it - but if they are worried enough to legally challenge it - it is positive. As long as they don't win!
  • I think EPL2 is as likely if not more likely than a European Super League(ESL).

    For an ESL to happen you have got to look at who the winners would be (UEFA, Belgian, Dutch, French maybe Italian clubs) and who the losers would be (EPL and the Spanish/German "giants") At the moment EPL teams get to have their cake and eat it too with EPL money plus European money. In Spain with RM and Barca negotiating their own TV rights the situation is even worse. The only way an ESL works financially for EPL and other clubs if there is no longer collective agreements on TV, which is a big risk for the EPL clubs in particular as they would potentially lose the certainty of the current and future EPL contracts.

    EPL2 however is eminently possible, not necessarily as a separate division but more as an enhancement to the current offer e.g. Two US style conferences of 14 or 16 teams with end of season play offs would up the marketability a notch and provide a marketing difference from the current offering if this got stale. If the clubs got their wish and eliminated relegation they would improve their risk profile and create a closed shop. This plan would, imo provide their own form of FFP as the "glory hunting" clubs pumped money in but the mid to lower table clubs could comfortably run at a profit in a similar way to US sports.
  • Clubs have the power don't they - that is the trouble.
  • Another point: the FL is now potentially in a cleft stick. If it gives in to or loses a court battle with the clubs who break the FFP rules, the clubs who have tried to abide by the rules would have an equally strong case for legal action.

    I think this is spot on. In fact, a host of clubs should write to the FL warning them that if they don't stick to the agreed on rules, they will mount a legal challenge!

  • edited February 2014
    Greg said:

    Another point: the FL is now potentially in a cleft stick. If it gives in to or loses a court battle with the clubs who break the FFP rules, the clubs who have tried to abide by the rules would have an equally strong case for legal action.

    I think this is spot on. In fact, a host of clubs should write to the FL warning them that if they don't stick to the agreed on rules, they will mount a legal challenge!

    Excellent point indeed - I can't see how they could lose such a challenge!
  • As happened with EPPP the smaller, less wealthy clubs will be happy to be "bought out" by the richer.

    If the likes of QPR can find a way to give a sweetner to the others without it costing them too much then they will and the FL will roll over and let it happen.
  • As happened with EPPP the smaller, less wealthy clubs will be happy to be "bought out" by the richer.

    If the likes of QPR can find a way to give a sweetner to the others without it costing them too much then they will and the FL will roll over and let it happen.

    I'm sure you're right, but it is so frustratingly short-sighted to sell your future for a small payout now.
  • edited February 2014
    I don't think they will win this - too much at stake for the future of the game. If I was the league I'd threaten them by saying that if they made a legal challenge all league clubs would be given the choice to vote them out of the league or not. Belonging to the league is like belonging to a club and you need to respect the rules of that club.
  • Greg said:

    As happened with EPPP the smaller, less wealthy clubs will be happy to be "bought out" by the richer.

    If the likes of QPR can find a way to give a sweetner to the others without it costing them too much then they will and the FL will roll over and let it happen.

    I'm sure you're right, but it is so frustratingly short-sighted to sell your future for a small payout now.
    Agree but tht is just what has happened with EPPP.

    Roland will fight any attempt to block FFP but the threat to CAFC is that RD bought Charlton on the understanding that FFP was coming.

    From the little we understand of RD's business plan it relies on FFP dragging other club's spending down to, or at least closer to, ours.

    If that doesn't happen Roland may well have a re-think. A worst case scenario for sure and there is no guarantee that the legal challenge will succeed but it is an external factor over which CAFC have little control.
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Roland Out!