You can try and look at data all you want, but there really is no substitute for experience in these situations. If the impact isn't that significant, then why on earth do fans bother singing at all?
Because it's fun? And why not add up all those experiences to form some data, rather than rely on vague assertions.
I've already stated that I don't believe the overall nature of a team's atmosphere can be quantified properly.
I personally think it is bit of a no-brainer that a good atmosphere will have a positive impact on the team and will help in the long run. I don't need to gather data to inform me of something which is bleedin obvious to myself and the majority of other Football fans in the Championship.
Spoken like a real scientist : - ) When asked to back up your claim that singing would add 10 points your answer is "it's bleedin' obvious"
You also claim to not only speak for yourself but a majority of fans in the Championship without having any data to back that up.
You also haven't responded to the point made in response to your statement about "why do fans bother singing at all?"
And before you say it, it was you who mentioned that you have a masters in group psychology
Ah, the condescending Henry Irving we all know and love is back. Right then....
My answer of 'its bleeding obvious' was in reference to the general idea that fans in the terraces can give a lift to those on the pitch. No, I don't have a statistical pocksy spreadsheet to prove it. Its called intuition.
In an earlier post I suggested it COULD be the difference in up to 10 points a season. There are likely to be two or three games a season like last night where the fans play their part and help get the players up for a match when they're struggling or trying to turn a draw into a win. Then again, that goes for all clubs, not just us. If all games at The Valley were played behind closed doors bar the away fans, I expect our home record would be frighteningly bad.
No I don't have any data to back up what other fans in the Championship are saying. But again, this is based on what the common Football fan says game to game "lets get behind the boys, make some noise", "sing your hearts out", "have a good atmosphere" etc etc.
I didn't respond to the point about "why do fans bother singing at all?", because I know they do it for fun, and to taunt and all the rest of it. Just as much as I know that they do it to try and spur the team on. Do I have "data" to back this up? No, but then why would I?
Is it invalid to say ANYTHING about the crowd without having a load of data based on it? No wonder our support gets laughed at considering some of the spreadsheet warrior talk going on in here.
Can you not take even the slightest disagreement with your world view without getting into personal insults? Your definition of "condescending" seems to be "someone pointing out the flaws in my arguments/rash statements and daring to disagree with me".
As so often you claim to speak for others and "know" something is true when what you are really doing is stating your opinion. That's fine but you can't have it both ways. If you are making claims then back them up. If you are stating an opinion then own it and say it is what YOU personally think. That it is a minority or a majority view doesn't make it right.
I actually agree that good backing by a crowd lifts a team but once you drop into the conversation that you have a masters in group psychology and make other wild claims of fact then you have to expect to be challenged on that. It's called debate.
I don't think there's any way of measuring the effect that a crowd has on players. There are too many other variables and as football matches don't take place in laboratory conditions we can't isolate fan supprt.
The best one could do woudl be to correlate numbers of fans (home and away) with results but that would be open to debate as well.
So gut instinct, evidence of players, anecdotes is all we have to go on. I'd add that a good atmosphere might also keep fans going adding to the coffers and assisting a club to be more successful.
Millwall is recognised by many as being one of the more atmospheric grounds, yet they had the worst home record in the league last season.
Over the years, some of our best ever away performances seem to be when we have just 3-400 fans at them (thinking Barnsley, Tranmere etc), when the times we take a large, vocal away following you can sure as sure as shite know the team is not going to perform.
You have spells in games when you are pressing and the crowd gets roaring then I can imagine that can have a lifting effect at a corner, but that's really it.
I think mOst players will tell you that other than where there is a meaningful stoppage, general crowd noise doesn't really get noticed other than in exceptional cases.
Great support might not affect an individual match but making players feel valued at a club is surely a factor in them wanting to sign in the first place and wanting to stay at the club for an extended period.
creating a positive atmosphere just makes the players want to play more and to hear the fans applauding their individual efforts can inspire them no end, well done fans same again
Millwalls atmosphere is a strange one though as they don't really get behind the team it's more miiiiiiii and abuse. They aren't exactly patient either.
You can try and look at data all you want, but there really is no substitute for experience in these situations. If the impact isn't that significant, then why on earth do fans bother singing at all?
Because it's fun? And why not add up all those experiences to form some data, rather than rely on vague assertions.
I've already stated that I don't believe the overall nature of a team's atmosphere can be quantified properly.
I personally think it is bit of a no-brainer that a good atmosphere will have a positive impact on the team and will help in the long run. I don't need to gather data to inform me of something which is bleedin obvious to myself and the majority of other Football fans in the Championship.
Spoken like a real scientist : - ) When asked to back up your claim that singing would add 10 points your answer is "it's bleedin' obvious"
You also claim to not only speak for yourself but a majority of fans in the Championship without having any data to back that up.
You also haven't responded to the point made in response to your statement about "why do fans bother singing at all?"
And before you say it, it was you who mentioned that you have a masters in group psychology
Ah, the condescending Henry Irving we all know and love is back. Right then....
My answer of 'its bleeding obvious' was in reference to the general idea that fans in the terraces can give a lift to those on the pitch. No, I don't have a statistical pocksy spreadsheet to prove it. Its called intuition.
In an earlier post I suggested it COULD be the difference in up to 10 points a season. There are likely to be two or three games a season like last night where the fans play their part and help get the players up for a match when they're struggling or trying to turn a draw into a win. Then again, that goes for all clubs, not just us. If all games at The Valley were played behind closed doors bar the away fans, I expect our home record would be frighteningly bad.
No I don't have any data to back up what other fans in the Championship are saying. But again, this is based on what the common Football fan says game to game "lets get behind the boys, make some noise", "sing your hearts out", "have a good atmosphere" etc etc.
I didn't respond to the point about "why do fans bother singing at all?", because I know they do it for fun, and to taunt and all the rest of it. Just as much as I know that they do it to try and spur the team on. Do I have "data" to back this up? No, but then why would I?
Is it invalid to say ANYTHING about the crowd without having a load of data based on it? No wonder our support gets laughed at considering some of the spreadsheet warrior talk going on in here.
Can you not take even the slightest disagreement with your world view without getting into personal insults? Your definition of "condescending" seems to be "someone pointing out the flaws in my arguments/rash statements and daring to disagree with me".
As so often you claim to speak for others and "know" something is true when what you are really doing is stating your opinion. That's fine but you can't have it both ways. If you are making claims then back them up. If you are stating an opinion then own it and say it is what YOU personally think. That it is a minority or a majority view doesn't make it right.
I actually agree that good backing by a crowd lifts a team but once you drop into the conversation that you have a masters in group psychology and make other wild claims of fact then you have to expect to be challenged on that. It's called debate.
If you can't see that the point I'm putting across is clearly an opinion rather than statistical fact (ie - What Championship fans think about how crowd noise affects a team), and you're actually going to make a point of taking me to task on it then this really is a waste of time. I shouldn't (and won't) spell out every single aspect of my thought process just to suit you.
The topic is about how well Charlton fans did last night and I'm finding myself arguing about whether I can 'back up' my thoughts about important our support is. Give me strength. I don't see you asking every single poster to provide data on their claims about every single comment.
I mentioned the Masters degree and the stats work involved as I was trying to convey that statistical analysis often plays a big part in group/sport psychology discussions, but I personally feel as though there are more qualitative factors and subjective factors involved.
Anyway, well done to the fans last night. Fantastic support. We can all take a slice of responsibility for helping the team get that point (however big or small it might be!)
Henry, just to CLARIFY - I didn't literally mean that they should actually go to a hospital, see a doctor and have their heads tested.
I know you enjoy a good clarification.
I do like a good clarification, for once you are right : - )
But if you didn't use such exaggerated and frankly mildly insulting language you wouldn't need to keep backtracking nor have to worm yourself out of the corners you have verbally painted yourself into.
Just state your opinion and forget the need to claim that the majority agree with you or that those who don't are somehow mental lacking.
I come on here to talk about Football, Henry. Not to listen to you try and tell people how to put their point across - its just not that interesting. Don't really know why I responded in the first place.
As for 'mildly insulting', all I can say is that you must get insulted very easily with what is posted on here. My advise back to you would be to not read into everything so literally and treat it for what it is - a Football forum, not a courtroom or lecture theater.
"October 1 Around the half hour mark there was a low roar from the East as people realised we had dragged ourselves off our knees and could turn the game around. "
Nah not a roar more if a straining noise - they were having great trouble in opening their thermos flasks! ;-))
I think out support is at its best when we seem majorly up against it.
What like when we're at home to Millwall ?
Anyway, I think it's obvious that crowd support, on the whole, will have a positive outcome.
Why do we encourage & support our kids, if slagging them off, would get them to do better ?
It's not an exact science of course. You can have Man U losing at home to WBA last week, but it's pretty unusual.
A good crowd support will usually help a team.
It also helps sway the officials imo. Otherwise how do you explain that Charlton rarely get pens at Old Trafford, Anfield, Emirates etc & yet they get them at a drop of the hat ?
Anyway, we need to support the team like that every game !
Comments
As so often you claim to speak for others and "know" something is true when what you are really doing is stating your opinion. That's fine but you can't have it both ways. If you are making claims then back them up. If you are stating an opinion then own it and say it is what YOU personally think. That it is a minority or a majority view doesn't make it right.
I actually agree that good backing by a crowd lifts a team but once you drop into the conversation that you have a masters in group psychology and make other wild claims of fact then you have to expect to be challenged on that. It's called debate.
The best one could do woudl be to correlate numbers of fans (home and away) with results but that would be open to debate as well.
So gut instinct, evidence of players, anecdotes is all we have to go on. I'd add that a good atmosphere might also keep fans going adding to the coffers and assisting a club to be more successful.
Millwall is recognised by many as being one of the more atmospheric grounds, yet they had the worst home record in the league last season.
Over the years, some of our best ever away performances seem to be when we have just 3-400 fans at them (thinking Barnsley, Tranmere etc), when the times we take a large, vocal away following you can sure as sure as shite know the team is not going to perform.
You have spells in games when you are pressing and the crowd gets roaring then I can imagine that can have a lifting effect at a corner, but that's really it.
I think mOst players will tell you that other than where there is a meaningful stoppage, general crowd noise doesn't really get noticed other than in exceptional cases.
They say that a 15.0% improvement in crowd support equates to a 11.5% improvement in goal scoring - or something like that.
Think on.
The topic is about how well Charlton fans did last night and I'm finding myself arguing about whether I can 'back up' my thoughts about important our support is. Give me strength. I don't see you asking every single poster to provide data on their claims about every single comment.
I mentioned the Masters degree and the stats work involved as I was trying to convey that statistical analysis often plays a big part in group/sport psychology discussions, but I personally feel as though there are more qualitative factors and subjective factors involved.
Anyway, well done to the fans last night. Fantastic support. We can all take a slice of responsibility for helping the team get that point (however big or small it might be!)
"Anyone who says that the crowd does not play a significant part in the flow of a game at this level needs their head tested"
QED
I know you enjoy a good clarification.
But if you didn't use such exaggerated and frankly mildly insulting language you wouldn't need to keep backtracking nor have to worm yourself out of the corners you have verbally painted yourself into.
Just state your opinion and forget the need to claim that the majority agree with you or that those who don't are somehow mental lacking.
:- )
As for 'mildly insulting', all I can say is that you must get insulted very easily with what is posted on here. My advise back to you would be to not read into everything so literally and treat it for what it is - a Football forum, not a courtroom or lecture theater.
Where were we, oh yeah
CAFC CAFC CAFC CAFC CAFC
Don't do that please AFKA, cheers mate.
I would go to the naughty corner but Tom and Henry have just asked NSS to budge up :-)
Around the half hour mark there was a low roar from the East as people realised we had dragged ourselves off our knees and could turn the game around. "
Nah not a roar more if a straining noise - they were having great trouble in opening their thermos flasks! ;-))
Anyway, I think it's obvious that crowd support, on the whole, will have a positive outcome.
Why do we encourage & support our kids, if slagging them off, would get them to do better ?
It's not an exact science of course. You can have Man U losing at home to WBA last week, but it's pretty unusual.
A good crowd support will usually help a team.
It also helps sway the officials imo. Otherwise how do you explain that Charlton rarely get pens at Old Trafford, Anfield, Emirates etc & yet they get them at a drop of the hat ?
Anyway, we need to support the team like that every game !