There's a difference between bravery and recklessness.
Fox won't get in the squad as there are decent senior options ahead of him.
Pigott is probably the closest but only due to circumstances; if we had other options upfront he'd probably be spending at least the first half of the season in the development squad/on loan.
SCP has been very generous in his praise of Jordan Cousins, maybe he thinks that he is now ready. Trouble is, you need to have a club policy of bringing them through. In the case of Cousins he won't get a chance except maybe the Cup, because our midfield is overloaded. If Pigott or Azeez get their chance it will be because we have no choice, not because the manager thinks it's the right time. I don't even think Harriott would have got his chance if the African Messi had proved to be half-decent.
I reckon Piggy and Smith will surprise a few. They were prolific in a very strong U21 team. I believe that we felt they were better working with our coaches at Charlton than clogging around in some 4th divinsion outfits. They both had a great leap forward last season. I was surprised by how well he coped physically on Saturday, shame he wasn't on longer.
At 19/20 if you are good enough you need to be pushing the first team squad. They are no longer that young.
Jenkinson and Solly should have been used earlier...would have saved needless money wasting on Francis and a load of loanees. Same with Harriet who should have started last season and would have saved us wages of Kercar.
I don't watch the kids so don't know who (if any) will make it but I would like to think that given how well they have done a couple will and they should be in the squad.
Waggy's confidence was knocked because Pardew was a plonker not because he played to early.
Clem_Snide said: Pigott is not ready for the Championship. I believe Conference South is the highest competitive level he has played at.
If we get someone in he needs to go out on loan till Xmas to league one or two.
no offence CS -this is not aimed directly at you- but Im getting quite weary of reading comments similar to yours like this every time the U 21's squad get a bit of time on the pitch and again deliver better quality football than the current supposed balance of the 1st team.
For the record -and again this isn't aimed at Clem- today's game against Ebbsfleet was always scheduled as a CAFC X1 game, then midweek it was re-assigned for the 1st team squad to ensure any players in the 1st team, who didn't get a full run out in yesterday's unfortunate lost game were able to get more pre-season minutes under their belt before the start of the season. To say the 1st half was underwhelming is an understatement and Ebbsfleet thoroughly deserved to be 2-0 up at half time, and the start of the 2nd half was not much better, it was only when the mass substitutions were made did the game change pace, gear and quality of football in Charlton's favour and within minutes we were putting Ebbslfeet under pressure with at least 2 or 3 well worked attacks resulting in an early shot just off target, a goal forma well worked corner taken by Muldoon nad finished well by Woods and at least 2 or 3 further chances - more than we saw in the entire preceding 65 minutes plus we then pretty well managed Ebbsfleet for the rest of the game....
At some stage we have to accept the quality of players in our U21's squad is possibly better than what we currently have in our 1st team and give them a chance...other players in bigger clubs than Charlton have started their 1st team careers at much younger ages than 18/19/20 and they weren't patronisingly called 'The Kids, youngster etc"
In my opinion Church made not-a-lot of his chances today and Piggott is way in front of him and also Mc Gurke looked average as did Jack Paxman, nothing for Callum Harriott nor Bradley Jordan or Muldoon to worry about as they are far more accomplished players. As for Munns - ex Spurs academy player- and yes, challenged in stature I give you that, but very composed on the ball in midfield and was not bossed off the ball... maybe with a player of his ability in middle of the park we would see less hoof it up benny football and more along the floor as we witnessed in the last 20 minutes Reality check, how tall is Lionel Messi and he ain't to shabby!
The back 4 of Osborne Feely Lennon and Fox were assured, there was good link up play with the midfield of Poyet, Muldoon, Munns made himself busy all over the midfield and Fox and Osborne provided decent wing outlets further up the pitch and Piggot was in or around the box to collect and either distribute or have a shot at goal.
....Can we please wake up and smell the coffee
I for one actually agree with Clem_Snide with regards Piggot, a loan deal would develop him as a player.
I think most of us agree that there are some very useful youngsters with potential coming through, but just to shove them into the 1st team as you are suggesting would be a disaster. Can you imagine the back four that you are quoting up against Grant Holt et al!
I believe CP will blood the youngsters when they are ready and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Cousins as a first team regular by the end of the season.
I've smelt the coffee, but it needs to be left to brew a little more!
I've posted in the past that either our youngsters are overhyped by the club and not that good, OR, SCP is too cautious. At that time I pondered why Harriott hadn't pushed on into at least a regular place on the bench. Then of course, because we seemingly had run out of other options, he got his chance...
...which would suggest the seconf hypothesis - SCP has been too cautious with blooding the U-21s. I guess I understood why he packed the bench for the Bristol C game last season with Waggy, Taylor, etc so they might get a chance to say farewell. But they could have done that 15 mins before kick-off, and made room for the future. I'd have much rather seen Fox come on to replace the injured Wiggins in that game, for example.
Sure, we need to sign some other strikers. Let's say we sign Church and AN Other, neither of whom may be match-sharp. At the very least give Piggott the start at Bournemouth and see what happens....
I've posted in the past that either our youngsters are overhyped by the club and not that good, OR, SCP is too cautious. At that time I pondered why Harriott hadn't pushed on into at least a regular place on the bench. Then of course, because we seemingly had run out of other options, he got his chance...
...which would suggest the seconf hypothesis - SCP has been too cautious with blooding the U-21s. I guess I understood why he packed the bench for the Bristol C game last season with Waggy, Taylor, etc so they might get a chance to say farewell. But they could have done that 15 mins before kick-off, and made room for the future. I'd have much rather seen Fox come on to replace the injured Wiggins in that game, for example.
Sure, we need to sign some other strikers. Let's say we sign Church and AN Other, neither of whom may be match-sharp. At the very least give Piggott the start at Bournemouth and see what happens....
No way are we going to play anything other than 4-5-1 on Saturday and obviously the 1 will be Yann, Piggy on the bench.
Wayne Rooney at just 17 joined the Everton pre-season one year, scored a goal in one match and broke into the First Team that season... Piggott may not be Rooney but we may never have that type of player coming through our Youth Team because we're too scared to play them simply because of their age.
And when that happens we either end up with a Turner / Shittu who go on to have good careers where we look on in envy or we end up with Haynes / Green type players who rejoin us a few years later just for a fee.
if you loan someone like piggot to a third or fourth division club the facilities the players and the coaching have a chance of being only just a bit better or on par with our resies , so where is the benefit, when we were in the prem we loaned parker to Norwich and he came back a better player , however I reckon Norwich had prem standard at the time training and coaches,
if you send a player on loan then it is no certainty that they will gain anything other than match time with players they are better than I don't see the benefit,
put him in the squad make him train with the first team at the intensity of the first team let him live the life as a fulltime pro involved in the day to day the professionalism that is required the concentration that is required
then give him 15 mins, 20 mins , over the course of the starting 5-10 games and see what happens if it don't look promising then you will know more about him as a manager
at the same time you are checking the loan market making moves
church is no better than Piggott except he has been given his chance
No way are we going to play anything other than 4-5-1 on Saturday and obviously the 1 will be Yann, Piggy on the bench.
You're probably right and I can live with 4-5-1/4-3-3 (or Jacko playing off the striker, in some ways his best position). But the Pig on the bench rather than an unfit journeyman...
Personally I would like to see Cousins,Feeley,Fox and Piggot appear in the squad for the Carling Cup game against Oxford and potentially given some game time .Clearly,unless we sign someone this week,Piggot would need to at least feature on the bench against Bournemouth.
Other than that I agree with the view that they should be found short term loans in L1 and L2 or maybe the Conference.The advantage of this would be we could recall them after the initial month ,I would be opposed to one of them going on a six month loan.
They arent 'kids' in terms of age but they are in terms of football league experience.
Putting 1 or 2 in is great, because it allows for them to learn from more experienced players and if they play badly then players rally around them and it shouldnt dent their confidence too greatly.
You start putting 4 or 5 in the mix together, things dont start to go too well and its a dangerous situation.
IF CP thinks they are ready then i fully trust him, but as supporters, especially frustated ones, i dont think we can pin to much expectation on a group of younger player with little or no football league experience. Its a different game to an U21 atmosphere.
Personally I would like to see Cousins,Feeley,Fox and Piggot appear in the squad for the Carling Cup game against Oxford and potentially given some game time .Clearly,unless we sign someone this week,Piggot would need to at least feature on the bench against Bournemouth.
If Piggott and Cousins dont start against Oxford then I'd say we definitely need to loan these two out... Fox would be a good addition at Left back allowing Wiggins to have a rest (bit injury prone at the moment?) putting Evina on the wing.
Feely I'd have on the bench as you'll probably have Cort and Wood in the middle for that one
I spoke to SCP just before the end of last season & the subject of younger players cropped up.
Regarding Callum H , the gaffer said that he'd been watching him closely and it got to the point where he said to Alex D " I can't ignore him any longer. I've got to give him an opportunity in the first team" .
I took that to mean that Callum was showing week in, week out that he was ready to step up ...knocking loudly on the gaffer's door, so to speak.
The rest is history. SCP had the courage of his convictions and Callum took his chance - neither have looked back.
Guess what I'm saying is that in an ideal scenario, SCP would again make that call with A N Other(s) of the youngsters- when the time for both the player & the team as a whole was right. And we must trust his judgement.
But there is a vast difference IMHO between " blooding" a player of that ilk and putting him in a squad that is performing /mainly getting results with the idea of adding something different, and HAVING to include said player out of necessity.
I'm pretty sure that SCP would welcome back Fuller & Obika with open arms and then Joe P could be "blooded" when we have some points on the board and he could have the opportunity to surprise the opposition , maybe from the bench , as an unknown quantity IYKWIM.
I also think that Jordan Cousins will play a part at some point this season , but will not be first choice unless , again we are depleted for various reasons.
But, although I recognise the importance of the youngsters coming through, I'd rather see them playing bit parts in our season whilst being readied to step up to the plate when required.
And, of course, the purse needs to be unzipped as soon as possible to bring in those 2 or 3 experienced guys that are needed to balance things out.
Can an academy follower clarify, I seem to remember that prior to his elevation to the 1st XI, Callum spent some time out injured and then was only coming off the bench in games? Hardly knocking on the door!
Funny how some are saying we should give these youngsters game time in the cup, yet on other threads, Powell has been critisized for no taking the cups seriously enough............................
Funny how some are saying we should give these youngsters game time in the cup, yet on other threads, Powell has been critisized for no taking the cups seriously enough............................
Lots of comments about Pigott and Smith, but what's happened to Ade Azeez. He was on the bench before others last season, went out on loan etc. Has he gone backwards for some reason, or have the others just developed better over the past 6 months?
Funny how some are saying we should give these youngsters game time in the cup, yet on other threads, Powell has been critisized for no taking the cups seriously enough............................
Not by me , I quite enjoy watching some youngsters develop and happily attend these games in that context.
I do no not want to sound blaise but when playing L1 and L2 sides we should be able to rotate a bit and many are saying that these lads should get loans at that level so what is the problem with them playing for us against teams who are in those Divisions ? They may even get loans based on good performances in those games.Remember they can become 120 minute matches which might come a bit too early in the season for some players.
The following should be a competitive team against Oxford with both experienced and youthful options on the bench if either is needed :
Funny how some are saying we should give these youngsters game time in the cup, yet on other threads, Powell has been critisized for no taking the cups seriously enough............................
I think the thing is that we have to send out a team we think can win every game, be it in the League, FA or League Cup. I'm not sure you could say that about the team that lined up v Huddersfield last year. They are in the same division as us and can you honestly say we would have sent that team out in a league match with the expectation of victory?
Oxford at home is a different thing. I think a team with a few of our best youngsters supported by some experienced heads (I'm thinking Hughes etc) should be capable of winning the game and gaining first team experience.
what concerns me is that all the old misery guts in the crowd, rather than cheering and supporting any youngster given a go in the first team will be looking for him to fail rather than succeed .. all the know nothing hangdog 'I told you so's' .. I have seen it too often over the years, 'fans' who love nothing better than to moan and whinge rather than support and encourage .. half of players being so called 'Charltonised' is the FACT that too many attendees are spectators rather than supporters and that goes for people who have been going down the valley since God was an infant as well as the more recent vintage who discovered that they were CAFC fans only when we got to the premier league. Give Pigott and co a chance NOW and stop worrying about the loanees and trialists of this world. If they were any good, most would have been retained by their previous clubs
what concerns me is that all the old misery guts in the crowd, rather than cheering and supporting any youngster given a go in the first team will be looking for him to fail rather than succeed .. all the know nothing hangdog 'I told you so's' .. I have seen it too often over the years, 'fans' who love nothing better than to moan and whinge rather than support and encourage .. half of players being so called 'Charltonised' is the FACT that too many attendees are spectators rather than supporters and that goes for people who have been going down the valley since God was an infant as well as the more recent vintage who discovered that they were CAFC fans only when we got to the premier league. Give Pigott and co a chance NOW and stop worrying about the loanees and trialists of this world. If they were any good, most would have been retained by their previous clubs
it tends to be the ones that know absolutely nothing about football that are the ones moaning all the time, simply because it allows them to say "i told you so" and feel all good about themselves.
Considering the amount of money invested in the youth academy by the current owners maybe they are now looking for that to bare fruit rather than throw money at bringing other clubs youngsters in on loan or expensive journeymen in the twilight of their careers. Has Paul Hart been telling TJ & MS that he thinks the U21 lads are ready to step up?
I think we all agree that at least two experienced strikers need to be brought in to add experience in that department but given the lack of backing/investment from the board maybe Powell will be told that he has no choice but to work with what he has and utilise the youth players to plug the gaps.
Would certainly explain the worrying lack of experienced strikers 5 days before the kick off of the new season.
Haven't read the entire thread so excuse me if this has been said already.
I don't think anyone is suggesting we go with a full starting XI of kids. However a good mix of 2-3 kids is not a bad idea. This is how Waggy, Solly, Jenkinson, Jonjo and Harriott all started in the team and all have performed well, with two of them now playing European football!
If Pigott is close enough to the first team then he at least deserves a place on the bench. I'd rather that than some journeyman, injury plagued forward with no resale value.
what concerns me is that all the old misery guts in the crowd, rather than cheering and supporting any youngster given a go in the first team will be looking for him to fail rather than succeed .. all the know nothing hangdog 'I told you so's' .. I have seen it too often over the years, 'fans' who love nothing better than to moan and whinge rather than support and encourage .. half of players being so called 'Charltonised' is the FACT that too many attendees are spectators rather than supporters and that goes for people who have been going down the valley since God was an infant as well as the more recent vintage who discovered that they were CAFC fans only when we got to the premier league. Give Pigott and co a chance NOW and stop worrying about the loanees and trialists of this world. If they were any good, most would have been retained by their previous clubs
People are concerned about giving 'Pigott and co a chance NOW ' because if it does go tits up, their confidence will be shot to bits.
Players with no league experience can take time. Chucking 4 or 5 in at once will only spell disaster in my opinion.
And your last sentence doesnt count for all loanees and trialists does it. We've seen plenty of players move and do well at a different club after failing at the former.
While Piggot seems to have done enough in pre-season to be involved in the 1st XI, he is the wrong type of player to partner Yann, despite their good understanding in the game they played together. What we need is someone pacy to stand on the shoulder of the last man, and chase down defenders into making mistakes. Worrying is the fact that we have been short of strikers since Fuller, BWP and Haynes were released but we've only given trials to three, one of those being mostly described as a winger.
Lets start with a fact, some of the people we are discussing are young men. Lads younger than them are giving their lives in Afghanistan etc. If you were at Welling, you will have seen Joe Pigott using cool control, good touch and accuracy to complete 3 out of 4 chances. The last time I saw that sort of natural finishing it was Clive Mendonca, who had done it consistently throughout his career. I wonder if he had to pass an age test ? Last week we lost Semi Ajayi to Norwich, no doubt for peanuts. In my book he is going to have an excellent career, and is fortunate to have been recognised by a very well run Club. I love CP, as I have said before we have a picture of him on display in our Lounge, but I am not prepared to trust him in all aspects until I see more of him as a manager. I certainly resent the thought that we are trialing strikers simply because they are all we can afford. I would love to hear Paul Hart's take on this discussion.
Comments
Fox won't get in the squad as there are decent senior options ahead of him.
Pigott is probably the closest but only due to circumstances; if we had other options upfront he'd probably be spending at least the first half of the season in the development squad/on loan.
MAN :-)
Jenkinson and Solly should have been used earlier...would have saved needless money wasting on Francis and a load of loanees. Same with Harriet who should have started last season and would have saved us wages of Kercar.
I don't watch the kids so don't know who (if any) will make it but I would like to think that given how well they have done a couple will and they should be in the squad.
Waggy's confidence was knocked because Pardew was a plonker not because he played to early.
I for one actually agree with Clem_Snide with regards Piggot, a loan deal would develop him as a player.
I think most of us agree that there are some very useful youngsters with potential coming through, but just to shove them into the 1st team as you are suggesting would be a disaster. Can you imagine the back four that you are quoting up against Grant Holt et al!
I believe CP will blood the youngsters when they are ready and I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Cousins as a first team regular by the end of the season.
I've smelt the coffee, but it needs to be left to brew a little more!
...which would suggest the seconf hypothesis - SCP has been too cautious with blooding the U-21s. I guess I understood why he packed the bench for the Bristol C game last season with Waggy, Taylor, etc so they might get a chance to say farewell. But they could have done that 15 mins before kick-off, and made room for the future. I'd have much rather seen Fox come on to replace the injured Wiggins in that game, for example.
Sure, we need to sign some other strikers. Let's say we sign Church and AN Other, neither of whom may be match-sharp. At the very least give Piggott the start at Bournemouth and see what happens....
And when that happens we either end up with a Turner / Shittu who go on to have good careers where we look on in envy or we end up with Haynes / Green type players who rejoin us a few years later just for a fee.
if you send a player on loan then it is no certainty that they will gain anything other than match time with players they are better than I don't see the benefit,
put him in the squad make him train with the first team at the intensity of the first team let him live the life as a fulltime pro involved in the day to day the professionalism that is required the concentration that is required
then give him 15 mins, 20 mins , over the course of the starting 5-10 games and see what happens if it don't look promising then you will know more about him as a manager
at the same time you are checking the loan market making moves
church is no better than Piggott except he has been given his chance
Personally I would like to see Cousins,Feeley,Fox and Piggot appear in the squad for the Carling Cup game against Oxford and potentially given some game time .Clearly,unless we sign someone this week,Piggot would need to at least feature on the bench against Bournemouth.
Other than that I agree with the view that they should be found short term loans in L1 and L2 or maybe the Conference.The advantage of this would be we could recall them after the initial month ,I would be opposed to one of them going on a six month loan.
Putting 1 or 2 in is great, because it allows for them to learn from more experienced players and if they play badly then players rally around them and it shouldnt dent their confidence too greatly.
You start putting 4 or 5 in the mix together, things dont start to go too well and its a dangerous situation.
IF CP thinks they are ready then i fully trust him, but as supporters, especially frustated ones, i dont think we can pin to much expectation on a group of younger player with little or no football league experience. Its a different game to an U21 atmosphere.
Regarding Callum H , the gaffer said that he'd been watching him closely and it got to the point where he said to Alex D " I can't ignore him any longer. I've got to give him an opportunity in the first team" .
I took that to mean that Callum was showing week in, week out that he was ready to step up ...knocking loudly on the gaffer's door, so to speak.
The rest is history. SCP had the courage of his convictions and Callum took his chance - neither have looked back.
Guess what I'm saying is that in an ideal scenario, SCP would again make that call with A N Other(s) of the youngsters- when the time for both the player & the team as a whole was right. And we must trust his judgement.
But there is a vast difference IMHO between " blooding" a player of that ilk and putting him in a squad that is performing /mainly getting results with the idea of adding something different, and HAVING to include said player out of necessity.
I'm pretty sure that SCP would welcome back Fuller & Obika with open arms and then Joe P could be "blooded" when we have some points on the board and he could have the opportunity to surprise the opposition , maybe from the bench , as an unknown quantity IYKWIM.
I also think that Jordan Cousins will play a part at some point this season , but will not be first choice unless , again we are depleted for various reasons.
But, although I recognise the importance of the youngsters coming through, I'd rather see them playing bit parts in our season whilst being readied to step up to the plate when required.
And, of course, the purse needs to be unzipped as soon as possible to bring in those 2 or 3 experienced guys that are needed to balance things out.
In SCP we trust .
Not by me , I quite enjoy watching some youngsters develop and happily attend these games in that context.
I do no not want to sound blaise but when playing L1 and L2 sides we should be able to rotate a bit and many are saying that these lads should get loans at that level so what is the problem with them playing for us against teams who are in those Divisions ? They may even get loans based on good performances in those games.Remember they can become 120 minute matches which might come a bit too early in the season for some players.
The following should be a competitive team against Oxford with both experienced and youthful options on the bench if either is needed :
Button,Wilson,Fox,Cousins,Cort,Wood,Green,Piggott,Cook,Hollands,Evina.
Subs: Pope,Morrison,Feely,Harriott,Jackson,Kermorgant,Azeez.
Oxford at home is a different thing. I think a team with a few of our best youngsters supported by some experienced heads (I'm thinking Hughes etc) should be capable of winning the game and gaining first team experience.
I think we all agree that at least two experienced strikers need to be brought in to add experience in that department but given the lack of backing/investment from the board maybe Powell will be told that he has no choice but to work with what he has and utilise the youth players to plug the gaps.
Would certainly explain the worrying lack of experienced strikers 5 days before the kick off of the new season.
I don't think anyone is suggesting we go with a full starting XI of kids. However a good mix of 2-3 kids is not a bad idea. This is how Waggy, Solly, Jenkinson, Jonjo and Harriott all started in the team and all have performed well, with two of them now playing European football!
If Pigott is close enough to the first team then he at least deserves a place on the bench. I'd rather that than some journeyman, injury plagued forward with no resale value.
Players with no league experience can take time. Chucking 4 or 5 in at once will only spell disaster in my opinion.
And your last sentence doesnt count for all loanees and trialists does it. We've seen plenty of players move and do well at a different club after failing at the former.