Where is the sniping ? It's common knowledge to all of us in the clique that for years our attendances have been exaggerated by the use of comps.
Is it that clear? To what extent?
Funny how in the past it would have been seen on here as just common sense and good marketing, whereas now it seems to being used as yet another reason to be pointing the finger.
I didn't think it was a bad thing then and don't think it is a bad thing now.
I was surprised how high the figure was.
If the figure was to impress new owners than great. Come in and spend the cash although I would have though Due Dilligence would have shown the actual crowds at the gate and the income figures.
I believe rick I know that there were a lot of comps yesterday. He may have been shafted by some at the club but I am pretty sure he wouldn't falsely slander the club that he loves so dearly and has put so much into over the past few decades.
Where is the sniping ? It's common knowledge to all of us that for years our attendances have been exaggerated by the use of comps.
Nothing wrong with that, though it means the announced attendance a bit of a farce. I'd happy fill the ground with kiddie comps every game to use up empty seats.
Can understand including paid ticket holding no shows in the attendance, including non attending freebies is stretching it a bit though.
Interestingly, my family tried to by an extra ticket during the week around them, but found there were none available, which seemed odd as its.normally a sparcely populated area. Turned up yesterday and there was hardly anyone around them.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with comps.
However, suggesting that the Board is issuing more comps than normal in a deliberate attempt to inflate the crowd in order to mislead potential investors is designed to imply that the Board lacks integrity.
That's how I read it and, as I noted above, it's actually quite a serious accusation - with the '08/09 Board dragged in for good measure.
Oh come on - don't play that game with me. It's the insinuation.
You might think I'm a deliberately confrontational WUM at times, but it's clearly not just me that thinks it - if you read the comments on this thread.
Mundell Fleming makes the point more eloquantly than me.
The crowd figure is 'the crowd figure' irrespective of who paid what for what seat or who got in for free or who is a season ticket holder. A bit like the charter flight where all 250 people on board have paid different fares (and yours is usually the highest). When the plane takes off it is full no matter who paid what. A crowd is a crowd is a crowd be it composed of fans who've been going for 40 years or a schoolkid making his 'debut' on a freebie
There's always a significant gap between the declared attendance and the number of people in the ground - at evening games 4,000 isn't unknown. I saw the turnstile counts and it was a consideration in setting ticket prices that many people using season tickets don't come every game. The 2008/09 distortion was down to Steve Waggott, who didn't want crowds under 20,000; I've no idea what the rest of the board knew.
The number of home match tickets sold sits in a predictable range. If it goes outside that you'd see big queues at the ticket offices because the infrastructure can't cope.
Oh come on - don't play that game with me. It's the insinuation.
You might think I'm a deliberately confrontational WUM at times, but it's clearly not just me that thinks it - if you read the comments on this thread.
Mundell Fleming makes the point more eloquantly than me.
Off_it
I wasn't there yesterday. However the crowd seemed surprisingly high to me. I could not fathom why we would suddenly get 20,000 on a day when the weather was shit and I supposed (correctly as it turned out), that Town would bring around 1,000. I expected around 16,000. I thought maybe there had been some price promotion I wasn't aware of, but that's not the case. Then somebody started a thread yesterday specifically to comment on the remarkable figure. It ran for nearly 24 hours before Airman Brown made his comment.
There is nobody - NOBODY - who knows better than Airman Brown how our attendances work. That is because for the last 15 years , on and off, he has been paid to understand and recommend on the matter. It was his job.
His guess as to why more comps may have been given out yesterday is just a guess.He may have heard something to make him think that. However when it comes to the crowd figure and how it is made he does have one advantage over you (which you have already conceded). He knows what he's talking about.
Where is the sniping ? It's common knowledge to all of us that for years our attendances have been exaggerated by the use of comps.
Nothing wrong with that, though it means the announced attendance a bit of a farce. I'd happy fill the ground with kiddie comps every game to use up empty seats.
Can understand including paid ticket holding no shows in the attendance, including non attending freebies is stretching it a bit though.
Interestingly, my family tried to by an extra ticket during the week around them, but found there were none available, which seemed odd as its.normally a sparcely populated area. Turned up yesterday and there was hardly anyone around them.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with comps.
However, suggesting that the Board is issuing more comps than normal in a deliberate attempt to inflate the crowd in order to mislead potential investors is designed to imply that the Board lacks integrity.
That's how I read it and, as I noted above, it's actually quite a serious accusation - with the '08/09 Board dragged in for good measure.
As far as 08/09 is concerned it happened, there is evidence and there are witnesses. I never agreed with it at the time and that is well known inside the club. When I got the chance I put in place a better system of targeting and managing comps, albeit a long way off perfect.
As for yesterday, the manager who was responsible for the gate in 2008/09 is now responsible again; it is strongly rumoured there were potential investors in the directors' box yesterday; the announced gate surprised many people, including me. I don't find it plausible based on my knowledge of how it is made up. But I am not saying it happened, just that it smells like it to me.
Would presumably be a targeted promotion to selected members not available on the day, so based on previous experience worth 500-1,000 sales max, depending on the size and qualifying criteria of the target group.
Trouble is you accuse Airman of having a grudge and therefore being biased but then defend your own stance with the always lame "it's my opinion". So you can have an opinion but if Airman or someone else has a different view they "have a grudge" or are "biased"
Off-it, you also said "everyone takes (what AB says) as gospel" when quite clearly you and many others don't., even on this thread. Why do you have to pretend that you are some lone voice in the wilderness who is the only one who can see the truth?
Even people who sympathise with Airman being sacked and recognised what he has done for the Club, including me, disagree with him on some issues and some of his statements and have said so on here.
Many others just don't buy any of his views on the the way the club is run and have constantly said so.
Seems do be a big element of groupthink here. You take the stance that the board are great and so if there is any suggestion that they are less than perfect or the situation is not ideal not just that view but the person saying it must be undermined so what they say can be ignored.
And before you wade into me I'll state my view. Again.
Which is based mainly on what I have read on here and not on "inside" info.
1. I think everything was going well until around March at which time Kevin Cash decided to pull his financial feed to the Club. Reasons unknown.
That lead to a summer of uncertainty for the directors and Powell leading to little spending on new players, certainly less than the previous summer.
It also meant that Varney and Kavanagh fell out with Slater and Jimenez. PV and SK left on bad terms (evidenced by minimal mention of their departures and the lack of thanks).
2. With the departure of KC, Jimenez became the main man as proved by his increased shareholder as stated on the OS.
3. TJ has an uneasy relationship with Powell which even in public Powell has said he "has to manage" but he hasn't sacked Powell as some said he would despite having plenty of opportunities both in the season before last and this season after defeats to Watford and when we were in the bottom three for example. So in my view if he wasn't going to sack him then he won't sack him now or in the near future.
4. While the lost of Cash's money was a blow Jimenez has kept on pumping money which is greatly to his credit. We didn't flash the cash but we didn't sell our major assets either. Then again we didn't buy anyone but Wilson.
5. In recent weeks we have seen three premiership players come in on loan. Now seabourne and Hulse weren't even in their teams squads so may well have come cheap or even free. Frimpong? Would be on big wages by our standards but we don't know how much of them we are paying.
6. So the worst case scenarios of Seth Plum and Airman Brown have not come to pass. Which I didn't think they would.
Or at least they've not come to pass YET.
7. So where are we know?
Not in admin or with Powell sacked but not challenging either.
The board are communicating even less than last season. Slater has gone silent, TJ always was and the new vice chairman Prothero is almost invisable. So what? Does that really matter? Yes, it does but that's is not the key issue now.
8. So the what is the key issue?
For me it is that TJ is still putting money in but where is it coming from?
My gut feeling is that he has found, or is very confident that he will soon find, other backers to fill the gap left by Kevin Cash.
Will we every find out if that is the case? most likely not just as we never had it confirmed that Cash was the true owner.
Personally, I am unhappy with the way people like Kav where forced out, unhappy with the lack of communication and honesty with fans but I'm not worrying that the administrators will be calling at SE7 any time soon.
With luck Chris will keep us improving and we can dream of the play-offs this season.
Long term the ownership and finance needs to be sorted out, if it hasn't been already.
So really you don't know, it's your gut feel or perhaps just your opinion! :-)
Where is the sniping ? It's common knowledge to all of us that for years our attendances have been exaggerated by the use of comps.
Nothing wrong with that, though it means the announced attendance a bit of a farce. I'd happy fill the ground with kiddie comps every game to use up empty seats.
Can understand including paid ticket holding no shows in the attendance, including non attending freebies is stretching it a bit though.
Interestingly, my family tried to by an extra ticket during the week around them, but found there were none available, which seemed odd as its.normally a sparcely populated area. Turned up yesterday and there was hardly anyone around them.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with comps.
However, suggesting that the Board is issuing more comps than normal in a deliberate attempt to inflate the crowd in order to mislead potential investors is designed to imply that the Board lacks integrity.
That's how I read it and, as I noted above, it's actually quite a serious accusation - with the '08/09 Board dragged in for good measure.
As far as 08/09 is concerned it happened, there is evidence and there are witnesses. I never agreed with it at the time and that is well known inside the club. When I got the chance I put in place a better system of targeting and managing comps, albeit a long way off perfect.
As for yesterday, the manager who was responsible for the gate in 2008/09 is now responsible again; it is strongly rumoured there were potential investors in the directors' box yesterday; the announced gate surprised many people, including me. I don't find it plausible based on my knowledge of how it is made up. But I am not saying it happened, just that it smells like it to me.
Many thanks for taking the time to elucidate. For what it's worth, I wouldn't have agreed either.
Small point just for anyone in doubt; there were definitely more people in the ground than usual, and evidently more than most expected. West Upper was fuller than usual, also East stand fuller at both ends than usual. Pleased with that, whatever the reasons.
Small point just for anyone in doubt; there were definitely more people in the ground than usual, and evidently more than most expected. West Upper was fuller than usual, also East stand fuller at both ends than usual. Pleased with that, whatever the reasons.
Small point just for anyone in doubt; there were definitely more people in the ground than usual, and evidently more than most expected. West Upper was fuller than usual, also East stand fuller at both ends than usual. Pleased with that, whatever the reasons.
No there wasn't. They were all plastic dummy's brought in as part of some greater conspiracy.
Did you hear any of them sing like the folk normally in the East and West? No? I rest my case.
I heard it was because he was fed up of the constant rows between Jeffery Reeves (Lead guitar), Steve Lashley (Bass) and the trumpet players. Could be wrong though.
I think it's always been done many times I sat in the ground with others on here laughing in embarrassment of crowds being announced that were totally fictious
This season and last I looked around the ground at games I have attended and thought yeah that seems about right
I weren't there yesterday but most of who I have spoken too mentioned the bs crowd figure but I don't care so what it makes our crowds look better on paper and it may well make us look a whole lot more of an investment opportunity
So it's not worth getting your nickers in a twist
If all we are moaning about is fictious attendances then quality
What I will add us this
For some reason airman and others on here are continuously getting sniped at for having an alternative maybe not so pro stance on things behind the scenes
Now I and others on here may agree or not agree with all that is posted but it is becoming a less enjoyable forum at the moment with the constant I know u know he knows no one knows arguments
Can things not be discussed without the need to lower the forums uniqueness into that of other sites
And does every single thread that has differing views not descend into the same old same old
For me it is that TJ is still putting money in but where is it coming from?
My gut feeling is that he has found, or is very confident that he will soon find, other backers to fill the gap left by Kevin Cash.
Will we every find out if that is the case? most likely not just as we never had it confirmed that Cash was the true owner.
Great post Henry. I'm hopeful that the loans are relatively inexpensive and are heavily offset by players like Hollands disappearing out on loan, but what happens in the January transfer window might be of greater concern if we suddenly see cash splashed out. Varney and Kav clearly disagreed with whatever strategy was being outworked, and that might suggest that the level of risk involved was greater than they felt was right. It reeks of a gamble based on the hope ("confidence") that a backer will come in, or of course that Cash can be persuaded back again.
As with all such risk taking, it's a great decision if it works out - but could be calamitous if it doesn't.
Of course, 20k gates won't harm - although a high number of comps will only be of value if they're converted into paying customers in the medium term.
Comments
Funny how in the past it would have been seen on here as just common sense and good marketing, whereas now it seems to being used as yet another reason to be pointing the finger.
What's changed? (As if I didn;t know)
I was surprised how high the figure was.
If the figure was to impress new owners than great. Come in and spend the cash although I would have though Due Dilligence would have shown the actual crowds at the gate and the income figures.
However, suggesting that the Board is issuing more comps than normal in a deliberate attempt to inflate the crowd in order to mislead potential investors is designed to imply that the Board lacks integrity.
That's how I read it and, as I noted above, it's actually quite a serious accusation - with the '08/09 Board dragged in for good measure.
You might think I'm a deliberately confrontational WUM at times, but it's clearly not just me that thinks it - if you read the comments on this thread.
Mundell Fleming makes the point more eloquantly than me.
The number of home match tickets sold sits in a predictable range. If it goes outside that you'd see big queues at the ticket offices because the infrastructure can't cope.
I wasn't there yesterday. However the crowd seemed surprisingly high to me. I could not fathom why we would suddenly get 20,000 on a day when the weather was shit and I supposed (correctly as it turned out), that Town would bring around 1,000. I expected around 16,000. I thought maybe there had been some price promotion I wasn't aware of, but that's not the case. Then somebody started a thread yesterday specifically to comment on the remarkable figure. It ran for nearly 24 hours before Airman Brown made his comment.
There is nobody - NOBODY - who knows better than Airman Brown how our attendances work. That is because for the last 15 years , on and off, he has been paid to understand and recommend on the matter. It was his job.
His guess as to why more comps may have been given out yesterday is just a guess.He may have heard something to make him think that. However when it comes to the crowd figure and how it is made he does have one advantage over you (which you have already conceded). He knows what he's talking about.
As for yesterday, the manager who was responsible for the gate in 2008/09 is now responsible again; it is strongly rumoured there were potential investors in the directors' box yesterday; the announced gate surprised many people, including me. I don't find it plausible based on my knowledge of how it is made up. But I am not saying it happened, just that it smells like it to me.
as off-it would say
Here we go again
*opens huge bag of popcorn*
Did you hear any of them sing like the folk normally in the East and West? No? I rest my case.
This season and last I looked around the ground at games I have attended and thought yeah that seems about right
I weren't there yesterday but most of who I have spoken too mentioned the bs crowd figure but I don't care so what it makes our crowds look better on paper and it may well make us look a whole lot more of an investment opportunity
So it's not worth getting your nickers in a twist
If all we are moaning about is fictious attendances then quality
What I will add us this
For some reason airman and others on here are continuously getting sniped at for having an alternative maybe not so pro stance on things behind the scenes
Now I and others on here may agree or not agree with all that is posted but it is becoming a less enjoyable forum at the moment with the constant I know u know he knows no one knows arguments
Can things not be discussed without the need to lower the forums uniqueness into that of other sites
And does every single thread that has differing views not descend into the same old same old
As with all such risk taking, it's a great decision if it works out - but could be calamitous if it doesn't.
Of course, 20k gates won't harm - although a high number of comps will only be of value if they're converted into paying customers in the medium term.