It wasn't the fans you are having a go at as "doom and Gloom" or "the usual lot" who raised the financial issue but you Tom.
I pointed out your references to Portsmouth and Rangers and stated how they are likely to be a complete world away from where we are at.
In that statement I didn't have a dig at anyone or point the finger at anyone for bringing it up the financial situation, so no idea why you've completely swerved it.
You are forgetting that you raised the financial issues first and called those people who dared mention the issues at a game "idiots"
The point I was making was in response to Muttley's and Lincs points that promotion to the premiership would solve any financial issues. I gave the example of Pompey and Rangers as both were in the top flight when they went into Admin.
You say they are a complete world away from our issues but then you don't think we have any issues.
Actually I agree that I doubt our debts are anything like the scale of those two clubs but we have £15m owing to old directors, £5m to the bank plus whatever we owe to Kevin Cash for the last 18 months. I would estimate £7m so around £27m. We also don't know how much the Club is losing this season.
On the other hand clubs such as Palace have gone into Admin with far smaller debt than Rangers or Pompey. What matters is can we pay our current bills and wages from our current income.
My view is that while it is true that there are currently problems, bills unpaid and transfer fees not available we are still an attractive enough Club for TJ or someone else to find backers to fill the hole left by Kevin Cash's withdraw of funds. (Cash hasn't left as his frontman Slater is still in place)
If we can't find a backer then sooner or later the belt will be tightened a little bit more. It's not in Cash or Jimenez's interest to go into Admin as they will lose money. So they cut costs, maybe sell a few players and balance the books.
I wouldn't mind that too much as it would be similar to the 1990s when we sold Bowyer and Mills to keep moving forward. But that was under a different board with a long term view and I'm not sure what the current board's business plan is. They don't tell us very much of anything, even when three directors leave that barely rates a mention.
Apologies for talking about Charlton on a Charlton board or discussing issues that you yourself raised Tom.
I of course agree with every word of Henry's last post, even if that of itself will prompt some muttered cries of 'clique' 'old guard', or 'agenda'. I find it sad that some people seem to devote most of their energy to attacking other Charlton fans, but are never around when something constructive like as Supporters Trust is proposed (and never voted when we had a Supporters Director, etc, etc)
I agree RCT. The feel good factor is back. Under CP we have a talented manager who knows how to inspire all around him. The squad looks like it has the desire and talent to compete at this level. We may surprise a few teams around us with higher aspirations than ourselves. As for the other stuff that seems to have derailed this thread as they say ' what goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas'. So lets all enjoy this season as it unfolds and get behind CP and the team.
If we go up - there will be no problems - the Premiership money is the highest ever. So we should at least all agree on that and collectively strive to achieve it. As fans, we can't do much more than support the team and create a groundsell of confidence that makes success more likely.
Pompey went into Admin in the Premiership and other clubs such as Bolton have run up debt of over £100 staying there for a few seasons.
And that's IF we can get promoted. Right now about 20 other sides in this league think they can get on that Gravy train and a lot have more money that we do.
And we can do a lot more than just support the team.
I take your point about Pompey. BUT the final nail in the coffin came after the Pompey cat had used well over 9 lives, we are only just starting to hear the bay of the wolf .. excuse the mixed metaphors. You Henry, as an individual have put a lot of time, effort and passion into CAFC over the past few years to ensure the club's stability. I can understand that seeing others come along and waste the 'inheritance' passed onto them and then to see a potential saviour/investor arrive and then depart unexpectedly, must be extremely frustrating and worrying for you. However times move on. Investment in even the humblest of clubs now entails millions of pounds. Millionaires generally speaking are men who pay little or no heed to sentiment or the wishes of those who have only opinions and not cash to offer. My point is that only a club which is successful on the field of play and has a decent infrastructure will attract a rich benefactor/benefactors. We have the infrastructure, a good stadium and training ground as well as a thriving academy and a team that is doing well. I won't say a team punching above its weight for I believe that many of the 'big' Championship clubs are not as 'big' as they like to make out they are or as 'big' as they may be perceived to be. Any would be investor in CAFC could well be put off puttng money into a club where supporters are thought to be poking their collective noses into a business over which they have no control, however well intended their concerns might be.
Incidentally I had NO idea that the debt was in the order of £27 million. Is it really that much ?
But Henry has rightly pointed out his confidence that the club can find a backer to meet any shortfall - I think that if the vibe and mood is positive with the club doing well, this task becomes much easier - that is my original point and I don't see how anybody can disagree. And of course positivity from us plays a part in this -by all means if a new development comes up and requires a rethink - we should do it but trawling over the same story over and over again serves no pirpose.
Of course if we got promoted this season and blew all the money on signings and wages we could be in big financial trouble even allowing for the massive hike in financial benefits next season to Premiership clubs. But if we did not secure mega rich backers, the club would be sustainable with the current players even assuming that their wages would rise significantly with a relegation contingency to protect us. That would be a worse case scenario, but certainly not a total doom and gloom one as even if we got relegated- we would have real value in our playing assets and parachute money. I don't think Portsmouth is a good example. It is better to compare them with us when we were an established premiership club who got relegated- and that is where the danger lies at the top level as we know all too well.
To be sucessful as a club we need a strong team (tick), a strong manager (double tick), good infrastructure (yep) and stability at board level(????)
£27m is my guestimate. The 20m owed to old directors and the bank are the least of our worries as they long term debts.
It is the short term debt that is the killer. If that is under control then we're OK but the rumours are of bills not being paid. At the same time we have recruited players and academy staff.
Its the contradictions that raise the questions.
It might all be fine or just a minor short term cash flow issue but we have no accounts to look at and no real info from MS and TJ.
Bills not being paid on time doesn't mean that a company is in financial trouble. Bending creditor payment days to suit the payee is (sadly) part and parcel of the business world in 2012.
As I have said before when faced with such a simplistic comment - do you run a business, by the way? - try "bending" your payment to the creditor known as HMRC, and see where that gets you
As I have said before when faced with such a simplistic comment - do you run a business, by the way? - try "bending" your payment to the creditor known as HMRC, and see where that gets you
Fair enough Prague.But it's been over a month now since we first heard of it so I am guessing it's been going on a while longer than that. How long before it becomes public knowledge then?
I'm not saying explicitly that I believe the club haven't paid their tax obligations on time. I'm pointing out how stupid is the idea, which seems to have unique acceptance in the UK, that it is somehow "businesslike" not to pay bills on time. What we do know is that many people have reported bills not being paid, and for me the crucial point is, we had none of this shit this time last year from any of "us".
I'm not saying explicitly that I believe the club haven't paid their tax obligations on time. I'm pointing out how stupid is the idea, which seems to have unique acceptance in the UK, that it is somehow "businesslike" not to pay bills on time. What we do know is that many people have reported bills not being paid, and for me the crucial point is, we had none of this shit this time last year from any of "us".
But have they actually said anything tangible about bills not being paid? I've seen no direct quotes from an angry creditor or rival club nor being paid for a transfer, nothing has appeared in the media, all I've read here is conjecture of the 'someone I know in the club says', etc, and frankly 99.9% of such quotes tend to be garbage (whether positive or negative)
As for the Supporters' Trust, surely the absolute nadir of our financial situation was 2 years ago, when we were going nowhere in L1, with massive debts, a rubbish squad with little resale value, and no hope... that was surely the time to rally the troops not now!
it seems that when a thread is started regarding positivity it soon gets shot down. Leave the financial woes etc to there relevant threads. RCT, I'm loving the feel good factor with the club, all the way from Oz.
Sir Chris Powell has the X factor and to me this team is playing above and beyond for that man , he is so special I for one feel good every minute he is with us because he is a class act beyond all our wildest dreams. The fact that the most positive and active of Charlton fans (Afka, HI,Rothko and Prague etc) are concerned about the off field struggles is good enough reason for me(a pessimist/realist/in love with Sir Chris Powellist) to be cautious of the behind the scenes shennagins. Steve Kavanagh and Peter Varney two men who have put years of graft into Charlton have "left" the club without any genuine form of good luck etc message , now we're all entitled to our opinions but that doesn't sit pretty with me .
Sir Chris Powell has the X factor and to me this team is playing above and beyond for that man , he is so special I for one feel good every minute he is with us because he is a class act beyond all our wildest dreams. The fact that the most positive and active of Charlton fans (Afka, HI,Rothko and Prague etc) are concerned about the off field struggles is good enough reason for me(a pessimist/realist/in love with Sir Chris Powellist) to be cautious of the behind the scenes shennagins. Steve Kavanagh and Peter Varney two men who have put years of graft into Charlton have "left" the club without any genuine form of good luck etc message , now we're all entitled to our opinions but that doesn't sit pretty with me .
I'm not too worried about the off field struggles. Most of this is rumours anyway and none of us really know what is truly going on. Lots of gossip though. I'd rather focus on actuals and that for me is what Charlton are doing on the field. I can see nothing but positive signs at the moment, something I for one have been waiting for for a few years now. I'd rather focus on that and not the gossip. Thanks.
if there was a feel good factor its certainly gone for me after reading this thread. i didn't know things could be so bad so i'm gonna put my fingers back in my ears and let the people who know what there talking about, worry about it.i am thankful we do have fans who are willing to take an interest in these matters but anything off the pitch is beyond me and i'm having too much fun at the moment to worry about things i know nothing about.
This is the last I am going to say on the subject unless there is a new development, but I have naturally tried to fit the pieces together as somebody who cares about the club they love would do. As Henry has said in this thread - Cash must still be involved in some way as Slater is still at the helm. There was a clear message given that Charlton would break even in the Championship when the new owners took over - I assume Cash was told the same thing. Of course things change in football and when asked to put more money in to cover revenue shortfalls he may have said no and it's not a giant leap to assume he would have been a bit miffed as he must have been given the same line.
WIthout that money -which was probably not a massive amount in relative terms - the club had cash flow problems and people were not being paid. This may not have been a major problem for certain board members, but Varney being a principaled sort may have taken issue with this, especially if there was money but it wasn't being used for the bills. You can understand him not wanting to put his name to that sort of thing. He is a Charlton man and has many friends, including emplyees of the club. If he is unhappy and walks, they will be concerned too.
But the crisis doesn't seem to have materialised - we haven't sold any key players and have brought players in, including paying a fee for one. People may point to the lack of some marquee signings, but if we cast our minds back, the board's plan was presented to us very clearly. Buy hungry young players who could get us up and then improve and become Championship players. Nothing that has happened seems to contradict this plan and in this respect it certainly seems to be working a treat. Positively, clubs are willing to sell us players and players want to sign for us which points to our demise being exagerated.
I don't have any leaks but have put forward a theory -that could be totally wrong but fits the pieces - the doom and gloom one doesn't I'm afraid. I'm going to enjoy this season and put any fears on the back burner until a piece of news comes out that makes me rethink.
It seems to me that some people are desperate for there to be off-field financial issues, just to be proved right. As Muttley says, the 'feel good factor' is back for me and 3 points tomorrow will improve my mood even more.
Last season was fantastic from pre-season to the final game.
It seemed to me that a plan had worked perfectly and so I assumed that the next part of the plan would roll into play.
I am by nature an optimist but it is clear that something was derailed.
What is challenging for some of us is the secrecy which surrounds the ownership of the club.
It seems to me that we can, simultaneously be:
1. Made up that our hero has created a team we of which can be proud 2. Excited at new challenges and the great start we have had 3. Intrigued at how the new signings will fare, especially Fuller who could be either a JFH or a Yann 4. Concerned at the financial health of the club
1. Made up that our hero has created a team we of which can be proud 2. Excited at new challenges and the great start we have had 3. Intrigued at how the new signings will fare, especially Fuller who could be either a JFH or a Yann 4. Concerned at the financial health of the club
But have they actually said anything tangible about bills not being paid? I've seen no direct quotes from an angry creditor or rival club nor being paid for a transfer, nothing has appeared in the media, all I've read here is conjecture of the 'someone I know in the club says', etc, and frankly 99.9% of such quotes tend to be garbage (whether positive or negative)
As for the Supporters' Trust, surely the absolute nadir of our financial situation was 2 years ago, when we were going nowhere in L1, with massive debts, a rubbish squad with little resale value, and no hope... that was surely the time to rally the troops not now!
OK, I will say this again, for general benefit, rather than yours, as I find you come out with the same old stuff regardless of whatever response you get.
While Supporters trusts are usually founded in a crisis, they actually should exist in all clubs. That is why Supporters Direct was set up. A good trust can actually help a good Board to manage expectations of supporters, explain the financial realities, and provide an equity stake held buy real supporters who by definition have the club's long term interests at heart.
The time to set up CAST in my opinion was actually in the Premier League after Richard Murray took the club private again. Glynne Jones tried it, but he did not have the active backing of a lot of people who are laughingly called the Old Guard, and being in Prague I wasn't around to persuade them otherwise.
This is not about 'rallying the troops'. The only thing it has in common with the Valley Party is that the people behind it are prepared to do more than 'just sit in the pub moaning' as Steve Dixon famously put it, back in the time.
I've been persuaded that Fuller is indeed a SCP signing, which can increase our optimism further. For me the next deadline is August 31st, when i see whether or not Chris Solly is available for selection at the City Ground.
Keep bringing it back up all you want Henry. For me, people who spend half the game moaning to their mate next to them about whatever financial difficulty we are in, instead of focusing their energies to our committed lads on the pitch giving everything = Idiotic and bloody infuriating, and I'll stand by it.
At the Leyton Orient game last week, I was sat in front of four people in the East Stand who spent about ten minutes talking about it and then continued the negativity about how we were going to lose the match, how we're going to struggle this season, how we will get thrashed on penalties if it goes past ninety minutes etc.
It seemed as though they were just using that concern and channeling it unhealthily to be negative about absolutely everything regarding the club. And this is in a Capital One Cup match for crying out loud!
Comments
The point I was making was in response to Muttley's and Lincs points that promotion to the premiership would solve any financial issues. I gave the example of Pompey and Rangers as both were in the top flight when they went into Admin.
You say they are a complete world away from our issues but then you don't think we have any issues.
Actually I agree that I doubt our debts are anything like the scale of those two clubs but we have £15m owing to old directors, £5m to the bank plus whatever we owe to Kevin Cash for the last 18 months. I would estimate £7m so around £27m. We also don't know how much the Club is losing this season.
On the other hand clubs such as Palace have gone into Admin with far smaller debt than Rangers or Pompey. What matters is can we pay our current bills and wages from our current income.
My view is that while it is true that there are currently problems, bills unpaid and transfer fees not available we are still an attractive enough Club for TJ or someone else to find backers to fill the hole left by Kevin Cash's withdraw of funds. (Cash hasn't left as his frontman Slater is still in place)
If we can't find a backer then sooner or later the belt will be tightened a little bit more. It's not in Cash or Jimenez's interest to go into Admin as they will lose money. So they cut costs, maybe sell a few players and balance the books.
I wouldn't mind that too much as it would be similar to the 1990s when we sold Bowyer and Mills to keep moving forward. But that was under a different board with a long term view and I'm not sure what the current board's business plan is. They don't tell us very much of anything, even when three directors leave that barely rates a mention.
Apologies for talking about Charlton on a Charlton board or discussing issues that you yourself raised Tom.
My point is that only a club which is successful on the field of play and has a decent infrastructure will attract a rich benefactor/benefactors. We have the infrastructure, a good stadium and training ground as well as a thriving academy and a team that is doing well. I won't say a team punching above its weight for I believe that many of the 'big' Championship clubs are not as 'big' as they like to make out they are or as 'big' as they may be perceived to be.
Any would be investor in CAFC could well be put off puttng money into a club where supporters are thought to be poking their collective noses into a business over which they have no control, however well intended their concerns might be.
Incidentally I had NO idea that the debt was in the order of £27 million. Is it really that much ?
Of course if we got promoted this season and blew all the money on signings and wages we could be in big financial trouble even allowing for the massive hike in financial benefits next season to Premiership clubs. But if we did not secure mega rich backers, the club would be sustainable with the current players even assuming that their wages would rise significantly with a relegation contingency to protect us. That would be a worse case scenario, but certainly not a total doom and gloom one as even if we got relegated- we would have real value in our playing assets and parachute money. I don't think Portsmouth is a good example. It is better to compare them with us when we were an established premiership club who got relegated- and that is where the danger lies at the top level as we know all too well.
£27m is my guestimate. The 20m owed to old directors and the bank are the least of our worries as they long term debts.
It is the short term debt that is the killer. If that is under control then we're OK but the rumours are of bills not being paid. At the same time we have recruited players and academy staff.
Its the contradictions that raise the questions.
It might all be fine or just a minor short term cash flow issue but we have no accounts to look at and no real info from MS and TJ.
How long before it becomes public knowledge then?
It will save you so much hassle further down the line.
As for the Supporters' Trust, surely the absolute nadir of our financial situation was 2 years ago, when we were going nowhere in L1, with massive debts, a rubbish squad with little resale value, and no hope... that was surely the time to rally the troops not now!
RCT, I'm loving the feel good factor with the club, all the way from Oz.
The fact that the most positive and active of Charlton fans (Afka, HI,Rothko and Prague etc) are concerned about the off field struggles is good enough reason for me(a pessimist/realist/in love with Sir Chris Powellist) to be cautious of the behind the scenes shennagins.
Steve Kavanagh and Peter Varney two men who have put years of graft into Charlton have "left" the club without any genuine form of good luck etc message , now we're all entitled to our opinions but that doesn't sit pretty with me .
The fact that the most positive and active of Charlton fans (Afka, HI,Rothko and Prague etc) are concerned about the off field struggles is good enough reason for me(a pessimist/realist/in love with Sir Chris Powellist) to be cautious of the behind the scenes shennagins.
Steve Kavanagh and Peter Varney two men who have put years of graft into Charlton have "left" the club without any genuine form of good luck etc message , now we're all entitled to our opinions but that doesn't sit pretty with me .
WIthout that money -which was probably not a massive amount in relative terms - the club had cash flow problems and people were not being paid. This may not have been a major problem for certain board members, but Varney being a principaled sort may have taken issue with this, especially if there was money but it wasn't being used for the bills. You can understand him not wanting to put his name to that sort of thing. He is a Charlton man and has many friends, including emplyees of the club. If he is unhappy and walks, they will be concerned too.
But the crisis doesn't seem to have materialised - we haven't sold any key players and have brought players in, including paying a fee for one. People may point to the lack of some marquee signings, but if we cast our minds back, the board's plan was presented to us very clearly. Buy hungry young players who could get us up and then improve and become Championship players. Nothing that has happened seems to contradict this plan and in this respect it certainly seems to be working a treat. Positively, clubs are willing to sell us players and players want to sign for us which points to our demise being exagerated.
I don't have any leaks but have put forward a theory -that could be totally wrong but fits the pieces - the doom and gloom one doesn't I'm afraid. I'm going to enjoy this season and put any fears on the back burner until a piece of news comes out that makes me rethink.
It seemed to me that a plan had worked perfectly and so I assumed that the next part of the plan would roll into play.
I am by nature an optimist but it is clear that something was derailed.
What is challenging for some of us is the secrecy which surrounds the ownership of the club.
It seems to me that we can, simultaneously be:
1. Made up that our hero has created a team we of which can be proud
2. Excited at new challenges and the great start we have had
3. Intrigued at how the new signings will fare, especially Fuller who could be either a JFH or a Yann
4. Concerned at the financial health of the club
Someone could equally say some people are desperate to NOT see anything wrong but that would be pointless.
Trying to suggest that Charlton fans WANT the Club to be in crisis and are enjoying it is even more crass and insulting that calling them idiots
While Supporters trusts are usually founded in a crisis, they actually should exist in all clubs. That is why Supporters Direct was set up. A good trust can actually help a good Board to manage expectations of supporters, explain the financial realities, and provide an equity stake held buy real supporters who by definition have the club's long term interests at heart.
The time to set up CAST in my opinion was actually in the Premier League after Richard Murray took the club private again. Glynne Jones tried it, but he did not have the active backing of a lot of people who are laughingly called the Old Guard, and being in Prague I wasn't around to persuade them otherwise.
This is not about 'rallying the troops'. The only thing it has in common with the Valley Party is that the people behind it are prepared to do more than 'just sit in the pub moaning' as Steve Dixon famously put it, back in the time.
Very well put. Thank you.
I've been persuaded that Fuller is indeed a SCP signing, which can increase our optimism further. For me the next deadline is August 31st, when i see whether or not Chris Solly is available for selection at the City Ground.
At the Leyton Orient game last week, I was sat in front of four people in the East Stand who spent about ten minutes talking about it and then continued the negativity about how we were going to lose the match, how we're going to struggle this season, how we will get thrashed on penalties if it goes past ninety minutes etc.
It seemed as though they were just using that concern and channeling it unhealthily to be negative about absolutely everything regarding the club. And this is in a Capital One Cup match for crying out loud!