[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Re: Docherty Lambert didn't dump him. He played most of the games last season and was in the league one team of the year.
I think Doc has been poor this season but you can't link the 7 - 1 defeat to Doc leaving when he played 43 games under Lambert, scored six goals a won a champions medal subsequently
I have not explained myself clearly. I did not suggest that either I or the Norwich fans exclusively blame Doherty for the 7-1 defeat. I assume that Norwich fans, having witnessed relegation, and then a 7-1 drubbing when they probably expected to win 7-1, decided they were all crap. Lambert has done a great job in identifying a squad nucleus that was not just crap, but capable of operating a division higher. He has retained no less than 9 players involved in that debacle, (but not Doherty) and I find it remarkable how far they have risen from that point. So my point is not about Doherty per se, but that CP has to do the same. There has to be a nucleus of players who can play better than this, and in a division above. Who are they, and how many are there? That is CPs job to find out.I firmly believe that Jose Semedo is one of them. In fact, he's first on my list. Others would be BWP, Solly, Wagstaff, maybe Elliott. I'm not counting loanees, and beyond that list I'm struggling. But then Norwich fans would probably not have kept most of that 9 either after the 7-1. That's what good management is about.
I'm still not with you.
Other than Hoolihan he got pretty much the same team promoted. This season yes he added to the squad more but last year he worked with what he had.
The issue is still whether Powell is capable of bring more out the current players as, as yet, he's not shown too much of that. Not saying he can't and Lambert didn't do it overnight but so far we've not seen much evidence of it.
Powell doesn't have to worry about a higher division, more's the pity. Let's hope he does in 12/13
What started me off is the number of people where who would so willingly discard Semedo because in their opinion he sometimes hasnt played well. My point was that a good manager has to work out those which aren't playing well, and those who simply aren't capable of doing better.Lambert did that, and has certainly surprised Norwich fans with the number of players he has transformed after the low point of the 7-1. There are people here who would apparently discard Semedo because they fancy a change, or sometimes because they believe he earns too much. And I'm saying (as are others)that he's one of the few we have who could do a job for us a division higher. I hope there are others. I think Lambert discovered that there were more than most Norwich fans believed who could do much better, and did. I hope CP will do the same. To be successful, he has to.
I think Prague's point is that the manager - and the fans - should look more at the players' strengths rather than their weaknesses. What are they capable of when they are in-form, and can they perform at that level consistently within the right shape of team/ style of play? I agree with Prague that it makes a lot more sense to keep a nucleus of the side from this season if the manager can get the best out of them - I would add Dailly and Benson (as experienced squad players rather than ever-present) to his list too. We can't keep churning the whole squad every summer then somehow expect everything to click into place from August.
[cite]Posted By: Bedsaddick[/cite]We need to build the side around someone new.
Why? And why do you believe the current side is "built around" Semedo?
I don't believe it is built around Semedo ( or should be) and that's my point . In the past we have had successful teams built around players like Kinsella , Parker , Murphy and even Bailey to a lesser extent . This team does not have a player which dominates or is the central focus.
What started me off is the number of people where who would so willingly discard Semedo because in their opinion he sometimes hasnt played well. My point was that a good manager has to work out those which aren't playing well, and those who simply aren't capable of doing better.Lambert did that, and has certainly surprised Norwich fans with the number of players he has transformed after the low point of the 7-1. There are people here who would apparently discard Semedo because they fancy a change, or sometimes because they believe he earns too much. And I'm saying (as are others)that he's one of the few we have who could do a job for us a division higher. I hope there are others. I think Lambert discovered that there were more than most Norwich fans believed who could do much better, and did. I hope CP will do the same. To be successful, he has to.
That I understand and agree with.
And Semedo is on too much but he's contract's up so no longer an issue. If he gets an offer he can accept or reject.
Prague addick - As Henry says, it will be up to Semedo to accept or reject the contract he is offered. I take your point about discarding everyone, it will be up to CP to recognise who he retains and who he releases. He will know that he will need to add quality in key areas and if he doesn't get it right by October/November, he will be under pressure. If I were him, I'd look at the collective wage bill of Youga (8k per week?), Racon (6k) & semedo (6k), a total of £960k per year, and see if I can re-invest in Championship quality. The team is in 12th place in League One and needs a overhaul. But thats just my opinion.
With respect and as politely as I can - The Norwich team that lost 7-1 to Colchester has 7 players who are either at other clubs or have been sent out on loan. So they haven't retained NINE players from that team. Theokalidas, Otsemobor, Nelson, Doherty, Gill, Tudur-Jones, Whaley, (plus McDonald & Adeyemi the two subs). Holt & Hoolahan are in the current team, Chris Martin & Drury are stll around. Granted Nelson & Doherty were retained for last season, but the rest were bombed out pretty quickly. Why the interest? I have a work colleague who is a Norwich season ticket holder sitting alongside me at work, so I hear about it every day.
Lambert has been very good at recognising the type of player he needed to get out of League One & progress. I hope CP can do the same. He will have worked out who he can rely on during the past couple of months.
I think a lot of people are getting caught up in the budget angle, but its the step back that is the most important. Does CP see Semedo as one of the key players he wants consistently in his starting side that will be good enough to provide a promotion winning team ?
If it is a no, then the wage issue should not come into it. If he is not the man it doesn't matter if he is on 6k a week or 1k.
If it is a definate yes, then it is worth paying extra to a consistent performer who rarely gets injured, is a good committed character to have on the training ground during the week and is a guaranteed 100%er during games. Sometimes its better the devil you know, and I'd personally rather have a Semedo (who can cover in other positions) on higher wages than to use the saving on that to bring in two players of the Francis & McOxo standard.
I don't see CP as the great revolutionary, i think having the right characters around and a degree of consistency will weigh highly with him.
Obviously it will be on less money than he is now, and if he gets offered Championship wages with a Championship club and a nice signing on fee, its probably irrelevent. But I personally think there is more chance of seeing Semedo around next season than not.
Prague - you're completely right, there is a lot of rubbish in this squad but there are also players who, if complemented in the right way by new arrivals, could actually be part of something successful. Im really struggling with some of the views on this thread - mostly because some of them are so overwhelmingly negative about a player who was this site's POTY last season and has come out in the press and declared his affection for us as a club. I agree he would probably work better in a 5 man midfield sitting deeper, and with two midfielders in front of him who know how to crack open a defence - but i dont agree he is such a "limited" player that he cant work in a 4-4-2. He just has to be complemented by a midfielder with enough tenacity and an engine to get forward and back, and someone up top who can drop a little deeper. Also, dont buy that his passing is as bad as some on here believe, hes actually good at playing the sensible pass to keep possession - hes just never been put in midfield with anyone who knows how to use that to move forward. I would be intrigued to see how things would have turned out without him the last two years, rather than holding us back, i think people would find hes saved our necks more than once...why do you think the only games hes missed have been through suspension?
[cite]Posted By: Se12Addick[/cite]I agree he would probably work better in a 5 man midfield sitting deeper, and with two midfielders in front of him who know how to crack open a defence - but i dont agree he is such a "limited" player that he cant work in a 4-4-2. He just has to be complemented by a midfielder with enough tenacity and an engine to get forward and back.
But does that sort of complimentary midfielder exist in League One? You're talking about a pretty complete midfielder there, and also one that has to be complete because there are things Semedo can't do. I believe you need 2 box-to-box all round players for a 4-4-2 to work very successfully.
Even the best teams in the Champions League have players in midfield who would be significantly weaker in a midfield 2 - Mascherano, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Khedira... I could go on. Obviously we are a world away from that quality, but I don't see why we can't yoink some of the ideas and systems they employ. If the best teams are employing 3 centre midfielders, it's probably the best system to use. It's also a system that both Semedo and Racon excelled in at the beginning of last season.
Yes, we are safe from relegation so Chrissy is going to learn more by trying to play for the rest of this season, how he will want us to play next season. From his previous comments, I think this means we should see a more attacking approach. For this to pay off you need a striker who knows where the goal is - I think it can be argued we have 2 so that's not a bad start. Anyinsah definitely has the ability so the assessment is surely going to be whether we can get on top of his injuries or not. We need quality in midfield - we seem to have that in Semedo, Racon, Jackson and Stewart. Defensively there are question marks but I think Powell knows we have a decent keeper and will be happy at right back with Solley and Francis. Dailly may be getting past it but we can certainly get some decent reserves/cover from 2 out of him, Llera and Doc but Powell probably knows he needs to strengthen central defence and left back certainly needs addressing.
Maybe if you get the defence right, the quality in the other areas of the pitch would have more of an impact. You can see a nucleous there I think with the current players.
But does that system suit the strikers we've got? I think that playing 5 in midfield actually requires relatively talented players too, because if they havent got the quality in attack, or if the opposition lines up in a similair fashion, you can end up just isolating your front man. It could be worth a go, i think it would suit Racon for sure - think he might do well playing off the striker even, but would it suit BWP?
Im not talking about the perfect midfielder, just a better one than the ones weve got! Although Parrett has done a good job so far.
[cite]Posted By: Se12Addick[/cite]But does that system suit the strikers we've got? I think that playing 5 in midfield actually requires relatively talented players too, because if they havent got the quality in attack, or if the opposition lines up in a similair fashion, you can end up just isolating your front man. It could be worth a go, i think it would suit Racon for sure - think he might do well playing off the striker even, but would it suit BWP?
Im not talking about the perfect midfielder, just a better one than the ones weve got! Although Parrett has done a good job so far.
Perhaps not, but given we're talking about the possibility of a rather major overhaul, it might not matter if our current players can't play in that system.
Not saying we don't have to strengthen and that all the players would be starters- just that there is a nucleous emerging of players we might want to keep.
Well I was basing my nine on the team including subs, and the current squad, as listed on the website of the Pinkun or whatever its called. Its a squad game after all.
But you ask, "why the interest", and I am amazed that you ask. Maybe its because I think of football as a business , and if you find a competitor business, and manager of that business who produces amazing performances then it is very wise to inspect what they are doing carefully and see what you can learn from it. Norwich were in the same boat as us on and off the pitch at the beginning of last season...now look at them
I'd be interested if your Norwich supporting colleague would be honest and tell us what he thought was the future immediately after that 7-1. How many of those players did he really want to keep? But that will be difficult for him to answer truthfully having seen so many of them go on to thrash all-comers for the following 18 months.
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]I think Prague's point is that the manager - and the fans - should look more at the players' strengths rather than their weaknesses. What are they capable of when they are in-form, and can they perform at that level consistently within the right shape of team/ style of play? I agree with Prague that it makes a lot more sense to keep a nucleus of the side from this season if the manager can get the best out of them - I would add Dailly and Benson (as experienced squad players rather than ever-present) to his list too. We can't keep churning the whole squad every summer then somehow expect everything to click into place from August.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]I think he meant 'why the interest' not as a question to you Prague but more to explain why he knows a fair bit about Narridge
I thought I remembered someone (Powell or Murray?) saying at the start of the season that they had sold players to ease the wage bill and that all the players that remained had been in discussions about reducing their wages. I thoguht this was one of the reasons Sam left, because he didn't want to reduce his? If I am right then this would mean that Samedo probably has reduced his wage from the championship money he was on?
[cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]I thought I remembered someone (Powell or Murray?) saying at the start of the season that they had sold players to ease the wage bill and that all the players that remained had been in discussions about reducing their wages. I thoguht this was one of the reasons Sam left, because he didn't want to reduce his?
If I am right then this would mean that Samedo probably has reduced his wage from the championship money he was on?
Not quite.
Sam was out of contract.
Some players signed new contracts on lower wages (Dailly was one), some of the former youth team players changed the terms of their contracts as they were heavily weighted towards appearances. I think Elliot was one of these.
Semedo is on the same high wage which was stated at the EGM to be £6k pw, same as Racon while Youga is on £8 pw again according to the EGM
Prague - The 7-1 was hilarious. All week I'd heard about the new players that Gunn had brought in and how well they had played in Scotland in pre-season. My pal was off home at half-time, couldn't handle it. At the time, most Norwich fans thought Gunn to be a strange choice, coming out of the back-room (youth scout) with no previous managerial experience. I particularly enjoyed his team selection in the last game of the previous season at the Valley, when he picked a centre-half (Shackell) at left back to play against Lloyd Sam, who took him to the cleaners and set up Burton for a hat-trick, which helped relegated them.
Fair play to Delia and co, Gunn was quickly replaced after the 1-7, and Lambert was an astute choice. When you look at the current team, the likes of Crofts (Brighton), Tierney & Fox (Colchester), Jackson (Gillingham), Surman (Southampton), Ruddy (Everton Reserves), Ward (Coventry), and Whitbread (Millwall) do not stand out as big signings. (Lansbury (on loan from Arsenal) and Pacheco (on loan from Liverpool) are obviously Premiership quality, gaining experience). So these type of players are out there and were identified as Championship quality by Lambert and his scouting system, while he was putting together a League One winning team. They were also in for Mackell-Smith (£1 mill bid) and Elliott Bennett (Brighton), just before the deadline, so they are still building.
I would hope that our management team have identified a list of similar players for next season, who are either out of contract or can be tempted away by a wage increase. Thats when the budget will become important. There isn't a player in the league who wont move if hes offered a good wage increase.
Back to the original thread - I never believe a player who says he wants to stay at a club for life. Players are loyal to who pays them the most, for the longest period. If a Championship team came in and offered Semedo £10k a week and a 3-year contract, he'd be off like a shot. They are professionals after all. Semedo has taken the opportunity of scoring his second goal in 4 seasons, to let the club know that he's happy to sign for another 2 or 3 years on a similar deal to the present one. Cheeky, but all part of the game.
On systems - Its not about whether its 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 or whether your favourite player is getting a game. The starting line-up is an important factor in combating the opposition, but if you have better players than the opposition and are organised, you will win 9 times out of 10. We need better players, who can rise above the standard of the other League One sides, who are generally well-organised, hard-working and will punish any opponent who is not able to match their level of industry. Our recent run has been characterised by defeats against lesser teams, who have worked hard within a simple game plan and taken advantage of our poor play and lack of industry. Simple things like tracking runners are very important in this league. (Anyone notice that our left midfielder allowed the opposion right back to run off him and overload Bessone in a 2v1 in the left back area, which led to Orients goal on Saturday? - a simple but very important job).
[cite]Posted By: Tutt-Tutt[/cite]Fair play to Delia and co, Gunn was quickly replaced after the 1-7, and Lambert was an astute choice. When you look at the current team, the likes of Crofts (Brighton), Tierney & Fox (Colchester), Jackson (Gillingham), Surman (Southampton), Ruddy (Everton Reserves), Ward (Coventry), and Whitbread (Millwall) do not stand out as big signings. (Lansbury (on loan from Arsenal) and Pacheco (on loan from Liverpool) are obviously Premiership quality, gaining experience). So these type of players are out there and were identified as Championship quality by Lambert and his scouting system, while he was putting together a League One winning team. They were also in for Mackell-Smith (£1 mill bid) and Elliott Bennett (Brighton), just before the deadline, so they are still building.
I would hope that our management team have identified a list of similar players for next season, who are either out of contract or can be tempted away by a wage increase. Thats when the budget will become important. There isn't a player in the league who wont move if hes offered a good wage increase.
Exactly what I'd love to see here.
It's not about big money signings or exciting names. We can build a strong squad picking out better players from League One and maybe League Two, mixed in with the odd Prem/Champ loanee or unwanted player. Like you say I hope the management team have been working on just that.
But to say having better players and being better organised wins you the game 9 times out of 10 is a bit too much of a sweeping statement against the importance of formations and systems.
Very glad to hear that a player wants to be loyal, in this cut-throat footballing day & age.
I remember him saying in one of his first interviews, that he saw us as a stepping stone to bigger & better things, & got a fiesty reaction from it at the time. (young lad back then, so I'll let him off)
Considering we have gone onto smaller things, it's nice that he has changed his mind.
Agree with Tutt Tutt and if we are to get better players across the team, it will mean keeping hold of the better players we currently have - Semedo is definitely in that category. When we consider the cost of keeping them we have to factor in the cost of adequately replacing them unless we are just out to save money which will run counter to statements from the board.
Comments
There's a lot to be said for a good foreign player who loves his club.
I'm still not with you.
Other than Hoolihan he got pretty much the same team promoted. This season yes he added to the squad more but last year he worked with what he had.
The issue is still whether Powell is capable of bring more out the current players as, as yet, he's not shown too much of that. Not saying he can't and Lambert didn't do it overnight but so far we've not seen much evidence of it.
Powell doesn't have to worry about a higher division, more's the pity. Let's hope he does in 12/13
What started me off is the number of people where who would so willingly discard Semedo because in their opinion he sometimes hasnt played well. My point was that a good manager has to work out those which aren't playing well, and those who simply aren't capable of doing better.Lambert did that, and has certainly surprised Norwich fans with the number of players he has transformed after the low point of the 7-1. There are people here who would apparently discard Semedo because they fancy a change, or sometimes because they believe he earns too much. And I'm saying (as are others)that he's one of the few we have who could do a job for us a division higher. I hope there are others. I think Lambert discovered that there were more than most Norwich fans believed who could do much better, and did. I hope CP will do the same. To be successful, he has to.
I don't believe it is built around Semedo ( or should be) and that's my point . In the past we have had successful teams built around players like Kinsella , Parker , Murphy and even Bailey to a lesser extent . This team does not have a player which dominates or is the central focus.
That I understand and agree with.
And Semedo is on too much but he's contract's up so no longer an issue. If he gets an offer he can accept or reject.
With respect and as politely as I can - The Norwich team that lost 7-1 to Colchester has 7 players who are either at other clubs or have been sent out on loan. So they haven't retained NINE players from that team. Theokalidas, Otsemobor, Nelson, Doherty, Gill, Tudur-Jones, Whaley, (plus McDonald & Adeyemi the two subs). Holt & Hoolahan are in the current team, Chris Martin & Drury are stll around. Granted Nelson & Doherty were retained for last season, but the rest were bombed out pretty quickly. Why the interest? I have a work colleague who is a Norwich season ticket holder sitting alongside me at work, so I hear about it every day.
Lambert has been very good at recognising the type of player he needed to get out of League One & progress. I hope CP can do the same. He will have worked out who he can rely on during the past couple of months.
I think a lot of people are getting caught up in the budget angle, but its the step back that is the most important. Does CP see Semedo as one of the key players he wants consistently in his starting side that will be good enough to provide a promotion winning team ?
If it is a no, then the wage issue should not come into it. If he is not the man it doesn't matter if he is on 6k a week or 1k.
If it is a definate yes, then it is worth paying extra to a consistent performer who rarely gets injured, is a good committed character to have on the training ground during the week and is a guaranteed 100%er during games. Sometimes its better the devil you know, and I'd personally rather have a Semedo (who can cover in other positions) on higher wages than to use the saving on that to bring in two players of the Francis & McOxo standard.
I don't see CP as the great revolutionary, i think having the right characters around and a degree of consistency will weigh highly with him.
Obviously it will be on less money than he is now, and if he gets offered Championship wages with a Championship club and a nice signing on fee, its probably irrelevent. But I personally think there is more chance of seeing Semedo around next season than not.
But does that sort of complimentary midfielder exist in League One? You're talking about a pretty complete midfielder there, and also one that has to be complete because there are things Semedo can't do. I believe you need 2 box-to-box all round players for a 4-4-2 to work very successfully.
Even the best teams in the Champions League have players in midfield who would be significantly weaker in a midfield 2 - Mascherano, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Khedira... I could go on. Obviously we are a world away from that quality, but I don't see why we can't yoink some of the ideas and systems they employ. If the best teams are employing 3 centre midfielders, it's probably the best system to use. It's also a system that both Semedo and Racon excelled in at the beginning of last season.
Maybe if you get the defence right, the quality in the other areas of the pitch would have more of an impact. You can see a nucleous there I think with the current players.
Im not talking about the perfect midfielder, just a better one than the ones weve got! Although Parrett has done a good job so far.
Perhaps not, but given we're talking about the possibility of a rather major overhaul, it might not matter if our current players can't play in that system.
Well I was basing my nine on the team including subs, and the current squad, as listed on the website of the Pinkun or whatever its called. Its a squad game after all.
But you ask, "why the interest", and I am amazed that you ask. Maybe its because I think of football as a business , and if you find a competitor business, and manager of that business who produces amazing performances then it is very wise to inspect what they are doing carefully and see what you can learn from it. Norwich were in the same boat as us on and off the pitch at the beginning of last season...now look at them
I'd be interested if your Norwich supporting colleague would be honest and tell us what he thought was the future immediately after that 7-1. How many of those players did he really want to keep? But that will be difficult for him to answer truthfully having seen so many of them go on to thrash all-comers for the following 18 months.
What Weegie said.
Ah yes, now I see. Apologies Tutt-Tutt.
If I am right then this would mean that Samedo probably has reduced his wage from the championship money he was on?
Not quite.
Sam was out of contract.
Some players signed new contracts on lower wages (Dailly was one), some of the former youth team players changed the terms of their contracts as they were heavily weighted towards appearances. I think Elliot was one of these.
Semedo is on the same high wage which was stated at the EGM to be £6k pw, same as Racon while Youga is on £8 pw again according to the EGM
Fair play to Delia and co, Gunn was quickly replaced after the 1-7, and Lambert was an astute choice. When you look at the current team, the likes of Crofts (Brighton), Tierney & Fox (Colchester), Jackson (Gillingham), Surman (Southampton), Ruddy (Everton Reserves), Ward (Coventry), and Whitbread (Millwall) do not stand out as big signings. (Lansbury (on loan from Arsenal) and Pacheco (on loan from Liverpool) are obviously Premiership quality, gaining experience). So these type of players are out there and were identified as Championship quality by Lambert and his scouting system, while he was putting together a League One winning team. They were also in for Mackell-Smith (£1 mill bid) and Elliott Bennett (Brighton), just before the deadline, so they are still building.
I would hope that our management team have identified a list of similar players for next season, who are either out of contract or can be tempted away by a wage increase. Thats when the budget will become important. There isn't a player in the league who wont move if hes offered a good wage increase.
Back to the original thread - I never believe a player who says he wants to stay at a club for life. Players are loyal to who pays them the most, for the longest period. If a Championship team came in and offered Semedo £10k a week and a 3-year contract, he'd be off like a shot. They are professionals after all. Semedo has taken the opportunity of scoring his second goal in 4 seasons, to let the club know that he's happy to sign for another 2 or 3 years on a similar deal to the present one. Cheeky, but all part of the game.
On systems - Its not about whether its 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 or whether your favourite player is getting a game. The starting line-up is an important factor in combating the opposition, but if you have better players than the opposition and are organised, you will win 9 times out of 10. We need better players, who can rise above the standard of the other League One sides, who are generally well-organised, hard-working and will punish any opponent who is not able to match their level of industry. Our recent run has been characterised by defeats against lesser teams, who have worked hard within a simple game plan and taken advantage of our poor play and lack of industry. Simple things like tracking runners are very important in this league. (Anyone notice that our left midfielder allowed the opposion right back to run off him and overload Bessone in a 2v1 in the left back area, which led to Orients goal on Saturday? - a simple but very important job).
It's not about big money signings or exciting names. We can build a strong squad picking out better players from League One and maybe League Two, mixed in with the odd Prem/Champ loanee or unwanted player. Like you say I hope the management team have been working on just that.
keep the faith and buy a season ticket
But to say having better players and being better organised wins you the game 9 times out of 10 is a bit too much of a sweeping statement against the importance of formations and systems.
And praise the Portuguese chap who loves our club
I remember him saying in one of his first interviews, that he saw us as a stepping stone to bigger & better things, & got a fiesty reaction from it at the time. (young lad back then, so I'll let him off)
Considering we have gone onto smaller things, it's nice that he has changed his mind.
Obrigado Jose!