[cite]Posted By: Tutt-Tutt[/cite]The traditional West Ham fan will hate the stadium, the distance from the pitch, the lack of atmosphere and the plastics who might be tempted to turn up for the opening matches. They will stay away in droves, especially if they are playing the likes of Barnsley or Scunthorpe in the Championship. Sullivan, Gold & Brady will have to sell up as soon as they can make a profit and it will leave the fans in a stadium they don't want. The fans seem to be half-asleep. If it was a new board at Charlton trying to hijack the club and move it, there would be demos and campaigns to stay at the Valley all over the place.
Barry Hearn needs to get as much compensation as he can, improve Brisbane Road, and advertise his club as "Proper Football in a Proper football ground". He might attract a few disillusioned punters.
That's an interesting point. I remember how my West Ham colleagues, disgruntled by the Bond Scheme, were saying how they'd become Orient fans if it went ahead.
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]I am not saying we take them for granted but seriously Ken, are you suggesting that more than a handful of lapsed season ticket holders are going to suddenly start supporting the Hamsters?
Well I think it may well be more than a handful if we are stuck in this division. Wishful thinking by the 'diehards' like us will not, but then Slater is not appealing to existing season ticket holders, but lapsed, and deffective.
But the traditional Saturday game of football has changed from even 10 years ago, and in the present financially tight times, the investment in time and emotional effort playing in the third tier is not attractive to a lot of ex Charlton that I know. Obviously my experience of supporting Charlton seems to be a little different than others, I wonder where all these supporters were when I grew up in the 60s, because there was not an abundance in Charlton, less than a mile from Floyd Road I can tell you!. Do not remember too many Charlton shirts in Charlton Park come to think of it during the 70s!. I went to far away Blackheath
late 70s and they were even rarer there!.
West Ham seem to have a history of large debt, almost a culture of it, I have a feeling that they may need there overdraft again, unless of course the council picks up the tab!.
Hardcore 16k..... is that our 'creative accountancy' attendance figures again!. Perhaps I was a 'hardcore' fan when they played at palace....... refused to go there, my loss no doubt, but then it is easy to support a team from an armchair!
Sparrows Lane Lion, get real - all clubs have people that come and go - turn up for the good times and maybe go to other grounds at other times. We should all be worried about the effect on our gates if West Ham make the move and throw cheap tickets about to get the punters in.
I'll get real and safely tell you right now that not a single Millwall fan will start going to support west ham.
You've got your hardcore 16k. Then you've got that additional 10k that were coming regularly in the Prem & Championship. I'm guessing that a good 80% of that 10k+ are Charlton fans and wouldn't run over the river to watch west ham if they start offering cheap tickets. Once you get promoted those fans will come back to the valley, they won't be going to stratford.
I think you are missing my point. Obviously the hardcore fans are not going to change. So is your point basically "Our fans are better than yours"? Or is it "all our fans are hardcore, every single person in the home seats is a hardcore fan"? I'll have to check the stats - does the New Den sell out for every home game?
Let's move on from that. We've established (or rather, you've assured us) that Milwall is safe - they've got enough fans who will fill their ground and will live forever. We're not so lucky - we have to continually renew our fanbase, encouraging school kids to come to the Valley and encouraging their dads (and mums) to come along too - that becomes harder if another local team has a large stadium to fill.
Sparrows Lane Lion, get real - all clubs have people that come and go - turn up for the good times and maybe go to other grounds at other times. We should all be worried about the effect on our gates if West Ham make the move and throw cheap tickets about to get the punters in.
I'll get real and safely tell you right now that not a single Millwall fan will start going to support west ham.
You've got your hardcore 16k. Then you've got that additional 10k that were coming regularly in the Prem & Championship. I'm guessing that a good 80% of that 10k+ are Charlton fans and wouldn't run over the river to watch west ham if they start offering cheap tickets. Once you get promoted those fans will come back to the valley, they won't be going to stratford.
I think you are missing my point. Obviously the hardcore fans are not going to change. So is your point basically "Our fans are better than yours"? Or is it "all our fans are hardcore, every single person in the home seats is a hardcore fan"? I'll have to check the stats - does the New Den sell out for every home game?
Let's move on from that. We've established (or rather, you've assured us) that Milwall is safe - they've got enough fans who will fill their ground and will live forever. We're not so lucky - we have to continually renew our fanbase, encouraging school kids to come to the Valley and encouraging their dads (and mums) to come along too - that becomes harder if another local team has a large stadium to fill.
Where did I say we sell out?
Both clubs approach building their support in very different ways. We tend to look within, you have a more outward approach.
Hence we'll generally have a smaller yet more constant support, whereas you'll generally have a bigger support but with bigger swings.
West Ham moving to Stratford will barely affect us short or long term I don't think. If you think it'll have a massive affect long term on Charlton's support then fair enough, I wouldn't have thought it would have much of an effect.
[quote][cite]Posted By: JohnBoyUK[/cite]Will be interesting to see if Sir Alan Sugar still employs Karren Brady on the next series of The Apprentice after all this...[/quote]
Good point!
Karen Brady .... your fired!!!
Mind you she won the task so maybe its Me ... I'm fired!
I don’t think that West Ham moving to Stratford will see us “lose” any fans. If someone is coming regularly despite the atrocious football that’s been served up over the last 3 or 4 years then I doubt he’s going to be distracted by West Ham having moved to the Olympic Park. If a fan isn’t coming regularly now then surely he’s “lost” anyway ? Our job is to re-engage them and try and get them back. The only realistic way to do this (because charging £5 a ticket for every match isn’t sustainable) is to improve the quality on the pitch – namely by getting out of this division. You can say what you want about making the atmosphere better etc etc but in reality if what we’re seeing on the pitch is dross, that will be reflected in the atmosphere off of it.
I guess we none of us know the full extent of a West Ham (Or Spurs)/OS nexus. What I do know is that ignoring it or worrying about it in equal measure isn't going to change things.
Charlton or Millwall cannot affect West Hams ability to offer something we don't or can't. What both clubs needs to do is focus on a strategy that works for them, their history, their existing fan base and their potential new fans.
For Charlton, in my mind, that means doing the things we are doing but doing them with a higher resource profile than perhaps we have done in the last few years for obvious financial reasons. Sorting the Valley out so that it doesn't look like a stadium that has fallen on hard times - e.g. getting the screen fixed. Making the catering better/more accessible. Taping further into the latent support using Valley Express and the community network and all the schools and clubs initiatives that Airman Brown is involved with. The Exeter game is a great example of a start. The Q&A this week shows the ordinary fans want to engage with the club. Ultimately all of this has to work together with whats happening on the pitch/at the training ground. The two can feed off each other.
I would respectfully suggest that the Hamsters (or Spuds) moving or not moving to the OS will not have a discernible affect on the above strategy.
I think it could have a small effect on us but not a great one. It isn't too far away but the Blackwall Tunnell is a terrific blockade -especially on a weekday!
I just get very annoyed by the utter uselessness of those involved - Mandarins, Politicians etc... They are terrified that the stadium will become a White Elephant so are going for the easy options in terms of it being used by a football club. But both options are rubbish when anybody with a little flair or imagination (I know it lets these people out) should be able to see that if you stick a roof on the thing, you have a terrific facility for events/concerts/ American Football/ Wrestling/ 20/20 cricket/ New year celebrations etc... and It won't be just another venue - It will be the Olympic Stadium FFS. The whole area with it's great transport links could become a popular destination with shops, markets entertainment. And within all of this, a significant number of days could be put aside for youth events - Athletics/ swimming /Cycling - they won't make any money but will be the sort of Legacy the bid team were selling to the IOC. And the other commercial events should see the facilities stand on tehir own financially. The reason we do so well with the Cycling is because of the excellent facilities up north and here we have a chance to provide that level for a wide range of sports.
The Olympic stadium will cease to be the Olympic Stadium and become West Ham's ground and a ground that a ground that is not best suited to football at that- It is so ridiculous and a betrayal of London tax payers (which includes Orient Fans BTW). A more than posssible legacy is that West Ham struggle, Orient go bust and the athletics track gets dumped at some stage.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Agree with a lot of that Muttley. Think maybe the O2 across the river had a vested in ensuring that that did not happen?
Add to that, Live Nation, who are AEG biggest rivals are involved in West Ham's bid to run concerts at the Stadium
It's true that the O2 is close -very close but the Stadium could stay in public hands and focus on daytime and limited evening events. The idea should be to compliment what else is available -of course their would be the odd occasion when there might be a conflict but I'm sure there could be some sort of agreement like if Rhianna or Madonna is in concert - the stadium has a Opera in the round or something with a classical bent that does not compete. I think it shouldn't be about maximising the money made either but ensuring it comfortably finances itself with a community ethos. I honestly don't think it would have too much trouble doing that.
i really hope this is not gonna effect us i feel more sorry for the leyton oreint fan if it was my club it would kill me to see my club torn apart by a club like westham what ever happens i will continue supporting my team
IT IS NOW OFFICIAL DESPITE YESTERDAY'S CONJECTURE :
West Ham United has been selected as the preferred club to move into the Olympic Stadium in east London after the 2012 Games.
Olympic Park Legacy Company (OPLC) executives chose the club's bid over a rival proposal from Tottenham Hotspur.
The decision must now be ratified by two government departments and the mayor of London, possibly next week.
The vote in favour of West Ham's bid for the £537m venue was unanimous. It was judged to provide the best legacy.
Spurs' plan was widely criticised because it would involve knocking down the stadium and building a new one.
'Really good outcome'
The club intended to pay for an expansion of the athletics facility in Crystal Palace, rather than keeping a legacy for the sport in Stratford.
West Ham's plan, by contrast, will keep athletics in east London and leave the running track untouched.
Continue reading the main story
Sport, news and more 2012 information
BBC London 2012
Baroness Ford, head of the OPLC, said: "We have made a unanimous recommendation to back West Ham and the borough of Newham as the long term tenant.
"This represents the very best legacy for the stadium.
"It is cracking for the communities of east London and a really good outcome for sport."
Baroness Ford claimed that, contrary to reports the recommendation was a foregone conclusion, it was a tough decision.
She said: "I pay tribute to both bids. They have each put the most enormous amount of effort into bringing the bids forward.
'Significant step'
"We were thrilled to have two robust competitors."
A joint statement from Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Communities Secretary Eric Pickles read: ''Today's recommendation by the OPLC board marks an important milestone for the future of the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and the whole Olympic project.
Baroness Ford, head of the OPLC, (r), said it was a "cracking" result for east London "We will look through their recommendation in detail before coming to our own decision.
"We aim to make a formal announcement to Parliament shortly."
It is considered highly unlikely that the government and Mayor of London Boris Johnson will not now rubber stamp the recommendation.
Reacting to the announcement, Mr Johnson wrote on Twitter: "Significant step forward today for the Olympic Park. Long-term future looking good."
Ken Livingstone, Mr Johnson's rival in the 2012 mayoral election, said: "This is the right decision for Londoners, the right decision for sports fans and athletes and the right decision for those who are working to deliver a long-term Olympic legacy for the capital.
"Today's decision will ensure we fulfil promises that the capital will retain a world class athletics stadium at the Olympic Park which will inspire future generations."
'White elephant'
UK Athletics boss Ed Warner also welcomed the decision.
He said: "The pledges have been met and there will be a long-term athletics legacy in the Olympic Park.
"We now have a fantastic opportunity to ensure it continues to inspire for generations to come."
It is expected to cost about £95m to convert the venue from an 80,000 seat stadium to a 60,000-seat venue for football, athletics and cricket.
The Olympic Delivery Authority is to give £35m of that to West Ham, while most of the remaining funds have been provided by a £40m loan arranged by Newham Council.
But Lord Sugar, former chairman of Spurs, has previously said the West Ham plan is "totally flawed" and predicted the stadium would become "a white elephant".
There was a vocal campaign in Tottenham against the move "It will be a disaster for the taxpayer and we'll end up having a mothballed Olympic village," he said ahead of the announcement.
The entertainment company AEG, who were partners in the Spurs bid, predict the stadium will go bust within a decade if it retains an athletics track.
But there was jubilation in north London among Spurs supporters who had campaigned against the club leaving its historic area.
Tim Framp, of Tottenham supporters' group We Are N17, said: "Our initial reaction to the news is one of relief.
"We don't want to be in any part of London apart from the bit we belong in."
Tottenham MP David Lammy told BBC Sport: "Spurs leaving would be devastating for the local community.
"It's hard to put into words how important Spurs is."
Haringey Council also praised the decision. It stressed that Spurs have planning permission for a new stadium at the White Hart Lane site and said building could "start almost immediately".
If you asked me to pick between Stalin and Hitler, I'd tell you to P off. I'm not goint to pick one because he is marginally less evil than the other. Ridiculous that this bidding nonsense was a 2 horse race between 2 terrible bids. I think Orient fans should demonstarte and I'll stand with them - sure some West Ham fans would too. i think the only way you can do something with these idiot officials is through People Power.
Loads of West Ham fans on SSN saying they think it's a bad idea.
Tony Gale on SSN this morning saying how it won't be feasible to keep the pitch a top quality Premiership pitch with cricket pitches being on there in the summer and other sporting activities being on it at other times.
Now they're saying about naming rights to the Olympic Stadium when West Ham move in. I thought the whole point in this was to keep the Olympic legacy, now a potential Championship side will move there, far from selling out, using it under a different name.
And as they try to get more numbers in they heavily discount tickets, stealing potential fans from Orient> Every club needs to believe it can grow and that will be taken away from them. I think this decision would be bordering on the criminal. Tax payers in London and Newham (who are 'loaning' WHU £40 m) consist of Orient fans and they are being made to pay for something that could kill their beloved club. Somebody should stand up against these people and we should not see Orient fans as rivals but brothers and do what we can to support them.
I believe that West Ham could be damaged through this also and that would also be very sad. This has the potyential to have no winners but even if there is a winner- there will definitely be a loser- that just shouldn't be on. Was wondering whether the timing of our match v Orient at the Valley would allow us to show some solidarity and send out a message.
Personally Johnny I think they should have turned around and said we're keeping it for community and UK athletics, possibly other field sporting events that are currently done at Wembley and concerts, and not let a football club take it over.
They could show some imagination and turn it into a sustainable public resource. Sustainable through commercial activities and events and something that gives something back to the tax payers of London to boot. It does have to make millions or billions- just be sustainable which I don't think would be that hard to achieve.
[cite]Posted By: Ross[/cite]Personally Johnny I think they should have turned around and said we're keeping it for community and UK athletics, possibly other field sporting events that are currently done at Wembley and concerts, and not let a football club take it over.
but you know all Chirpy, he was a good defender, but not an expert on maintaining a pitch
If he's using Wembley as the example, it seems Wembley has solved the problem, plenty of example like the MCG where you can drop cricket pitches in, and remove them for other sports to be played.
As for gigs, I'm sure Live Nation will start moving stuff that they place at Wembley, Twickenham and Hyde Park
I know Orient have screamed and shouted in the last few weeks, but they were offered the stadium, and turned it down, as they didn't want an athletics track, which I hate to say is tough.
West Ham are moving closer to West Ham, then Upton Park is now, they are already paired on the fixture list, and will have to co exist like they have for most of the last 100 years.
Comments
That's an interesting point. I remember how my West Ham colleagues, disgruntled by the Bond Scheme, were saying how they'd become Orient fans if it went ahead.
Well I think it may well be more than a handful if we are stuck in this division. Wishful thinking by the 'diehards' like us will not, but then Slater is not appealing to existing season ticket holders, but lapsed, and deffective.
But the traditional Saturday game of football has changed from even 10 years ago, and in the present financially tight times, the investment in time and emotional effort playing in the third tier is not attractive to a lot of ex Charlton that I know. Obviously my experience of supporting Charlton seems to be a little different than others, I wonder where all these supporters were when I grew up in the 60s, because there was not an abundance in Charlton, less than a mile from Floyd Road I can tell you!. Do not remember too many Charlton shirts in Charlton Park come to think of it during the 70s!. I went to far away Blackheath
late 70s and they were even rarer there!.
West Ham seem to have a history of large debt, almost a culture of it, I have a feeling that they may need there overdraft again, unless of course the council picks up the tab!.
Hardcore 16k..... is that our 'creative accountancy' attendance figures again!. Perhaps I was a 'hardcore' fan when they played at palace....... refused to go there, my loss no doubt, but then it is easy to support a team from an armchair!
I think you are missing my point. Obviously the hardcore fans are not going to change. So is your point basically "Our fans are better than yours"? Or is it "all our fans are hardcore, every single person in the home seats is a hardcore fan"? I'll have to check the stats - does the New Den sell out for every home game?
Let's move on from that. We've established (or rather, you've assured us) that Milwall is safe - they've got enough fans who will fill their ground and will live forever. We're not so lucky - we have to continually renew our fanbase, encouraging school kids to come to the Valley and encouraging their dads (and mums) to come along too - that becomes harder if another local team has a large stadium to fill.
Where did I say we sell out?
Both clubs approach building their support in very different ways. We tend to look within, you have a more outward approach.
Hence we'll generally have a smaller yet more constant support, whereas you'll generally have a bigger support but with bigger swings.
West Ham moving to Stratford will barely affect us short or long term I don't think. If you think it'll have a massive affect long term on Charlton's support then fair enough, I wouldn't have thought it would have much of an effect.
Good point!
Karen Brady .... your fired!!!
Mind you she won the task so maybe its Me ... I'm fired!
An anagram of West Ham United is....
THE NEW STADIUM!
Charlton or Millwall cannot affect West Hams ability to offer something we don't or can't. What both clubs needs to do is focus on a strategy that works for them, their history, their existing fan base and their potential new fans.
For Charlton, in my mind, that means doing the things we are doing but doing them with a higher resource profile than perhaps we have done in the last few years for obvious financial reasons. Sorting the Valley out so that it doesn't look like a stadium that has fallen on hard times - e.g. getting the screen fixed. Making the catering better/more accessible. Taping further into the latent support using Valley Express and the community network and all the schools and clubs initiatives that Airman Brown is involved with. The Exeter game is a great example of a start. The Q&A this week shows the ordinary fans want to engage with the club. Ultimately all of this has to work together with whats happening on the pitch/at the training ground. The two can feed off each other.
I would respectfully suggest that the Hamsters (or Spuds) moving or not moving to the OS will not have a discernible affect on the above strategy.
Spooky! :-)
I just get very annoyed by the utter uselessness of those involved - Mandarins, Politicians etc... They are terrified that the stadium will become a White Elephant so are going for the easy options in terms of it being used by a football club. But both options are rubbish when anybody with a little flair or imagination (I know it lets these people out) should be able to see that if you stick a roof on the thing, you have a terrific facility for events/concerts/ American Football/ Wrestling/ 20/20 cricket/ New year celebrations etc... and It won't be just another venue - It will be the Olympic Stadium FFS. The whole area with it's great transport links could become a popular destination with shops, markets entertainment. And within all of this, a significant number of days could be put aside for youth events - Athletics/ swimming /Cycling - they won't make any money but will be the sort of Legacy the bid team were selling to the IOC. And the other commercial events should see the facilities stand on tehir own financially. The reason we do so well with the Cycling is because of the excellent facilities up north and here we have a chance to provide that level for a wide range of sports.
The Olympic stadium will cease to be the Olympic Stadium and become West Ham's ground and a ground that a ground that is not best suited to football at that- It is so ridiculous and a betrayal of London tax payers (which includes Orient Fans BTW). A more than posssible legacy is that West Ham struggle, Orient go bust and the athletics track gets dumped at some stage.
Add to that, Live Nation, who are AEG biggest rivals are involved in West Ham's bid to run concerts at the Stadium
West Ham United has been selected as the preferred club to move into the Olympic Stadium in east London after the 2012 Games.
Olympic Park Legacy Company (OPLC) executives chose the club's bid over a rival proposal from Tottenham Hotspur.
The decision must now be ratified by two government departments and the mayor of London, possibly next week.
The vote in favour of West Ham's bid for the £537m venue was unanimous. It was judged to provide the best legacy.
Spurs' plan was widely criticised because it would involve knocking down the stadium and building a new one.
'Really good outcome'
The club intended to pay for an expansion of the athletics facility in Crystal Palace, rather than keeping a legacy for the sport in Stratford.
West Ham's plan, by contrast, will keep athletics in east London and leave the running track untouched.
Continue reading the main story
Sport, news and more 2012 information
BBC London 2012
Baroness Ford, head of the OPLC, said: "We have made a unanimous recommendation to back West Ham and the borough of Newham as the long term tenant.
"This represents the very best legacy for the stadium.
"It is cracking for the communities of east London and a really good outcome for sport."
Baroness Ford claimed that, contrary to reports the recommendation was a foregone conclusion, it was a tough decision.
She said: "I pay tribute to both bids. They have each put the most enormous amount of effort into bringing the bids forward.
'Significant step'
"We were thrilled to have two robust competitors."
A joint statement from Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Communities Secretary Eric Pickles read: ''Today's recommendation by the OPLC board marks an important milestone for the future of the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and the whole Olympic project.
Baroness Ford, head of the OPLC, (r), said it was a "cracking" result for east London "We will look through their recommendation in detail before coming to our own decision.
"We aim to make a formal announcement to Parliament shortly."
It is considered highly unlikely that the government and Mayor of London Boris Johnson will not now rubber stamp the recommendation.
Reacting to the announcement, Mr Johnson wrote on Twitter: "Significant step forward today for the Olympic Park. Long-term future looking good."
Ken Livingstone, Mr Johnson's rival in the 2012 mayoral election, said: "This is the right decision for Londoners, the right decision for sports fans and athletes and the right decision for those who are working to deliver a long-term Olympic legacy for the capital.
"Today's decision will ensure we fulfil promises that the capital will retain a world class athletics stadium at the Olympic Park which will inspire future generations."
'White elephant'
UK Athletics boss Ed Warner also welcomed the decision.
He said: "The pledges have been met and there will be a long-term athletics legacy in the Olympic Park.
"We now have a fantastic opportunity to ensure it continues to inspire for generations to come."
It is expected to cost about £95m to convert the venue from an 80,000 seat stadium to a 60,000-seat venue for football, athletics and cricket.
The Olympic Delivery Authority is to give £35m of that to West Ham, while most of the remaining funds have been provided by a £40m loan arranged by Newham Council.
But Lord Sugar, former chairman of Spurs, has previously said the West Ham plan is "totally flawed" and predicted the stadium would become "a white elephant".
There was a vocal campaign in Tottenham against the move "It will be a disaster for the taxpayer and we'll end up having a mothballed Olympic village," he said ahead of the announcement.
The entertainment company AEG, who were partners in the Spurs bid, predict the stadium will go bust within a decade if it retains an athletics track.
But there was jubilation in north London among Spurs supporters who had campaigned against the club leaving its historic area.
Tim Framp, of Tottenham supporters' group We Are N17, said: "Our initial reaction to the news is one of relief.
"We don't want to be in any part of London apart from the bit we belong in."
Tottenham MP David Lammy told BBC Sport: "Spurs leaving would be devastating for the local community.
"It's hard to put into words how important Spurs is."
Haringey Council also praised the decision. It stressed that Spurs have planning permission for a new stadium at the White Hart Lane site and said building could "start almost immediately".
Tony Gale on SSN this morning saying how it won't be feasible to keep the pitch a top quality Premiership pitch with cricket pitches being on there in the summer and other sporting activities being on it at other times.
Now they're saying about naming rights to the Olympic Stadium when West Ham move in. I thought the whole point in this was to keep the Olympic legacy, now a potential Championship side will move there, far from selling out, using it under a different name.
Poor imo.
I believe that West Ham could be damaged through this also and that would also be very sad. This has the potyential to have no winners but even if there is a winner- there will definitely be a loser- that just shouldn't be on. Was wondering whether the timing of our match v Orient at the Valley would allow us to show some solidarity and send out a message.
More than you I'll wager.....
I agree. Could still happen.
If he's using Wembley as the example, it seems Wembley has solved the problem, plenty of example like the MCG where you can drop cricket pitches in, and remove them for other sports to be played.
As for gigs, I'm sure Live Nation will start moving stuff that they place at Wembley, Twickenham and Hyde Park
This really is unacceptable from the FA.
Money rules everything.
West Ham are moving closer to West Ham, then Upton Park is now, they are already paired on the fixture list, and will have to co exist like they have for most of the last 100 years.