[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]So Parky gets sacked for not building a league 1 promotion team on little or no money but the new manager, with money, gets 15 months? Bizarre.
Parky had time with little or no money. The new man has no time with plenty of money.
Both eaqually challenging
Do we know for certain he'll have plenty of money? Do we know if he fails to win promotion he won't be given next season with money to improve the squad?
Nope Scoham it's pure speculation as per 99.9% of my posts but imagine it will be deemed plentiful in relative terms of what has been available in the past few seasons for transfers in recent years and compared to most in this league (ignoring what may have been available for wages last year on both these counts)
Also if they wanted to be prudent with cash they could have kept parkinson and tested the water before giving him any cash. If they bring someone in theyll need to offer a carrot of available funds to the new person I think as anyone up for the job will have seen they arent afraid to fire.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]If we go up he can worry about a Championship standard team then. Great to get players who can play a role in both tasks if possible but let's cross the championship bridge when we get to it.
And that's the strategic difference that I'm talking about. Doing what's necessary over the next 12-15 months to ensure that we can cross the (Championship) bridge when we come to it, and that it doesn't just break under our weight and plunge us back into the depths of League 1 again.
Dealing with the requirements of promotion from League 1 then trying to sustain a position in the Championship do not have to be viewed as separate, sequential activities. They are part of a continuum.
No-one said it would be easy. That's why the appointment of the new man is so important. But with a bit of money (rumoured to be £2.2m +VAT) and a sensible time frame (12 - 15 months), it can be done. If there is enough money to throw at the problem, then it should be achievable this season too.
I'm extending the time frame. But upping the ante. Getting out of League 1 is not the whole story. We have to stay out of it.
To act how they have, they obviously expect nothing else.
Whatever anyone says about Parkinson, I'm pretty sure he would've got us into the play-offs this season... not necessarily got through them, but into them.
To me, if the new bloke doesn't beat that then it's failure for him and the owners.
because the players we have a new manager will need time to build,remember some of this team were part of a relegation and a failed promotion bid in league one and also have been a part of truly awful football,its a mess hopefully a proper manager with no past connections can get them passing simple balls and get us up into a auto soon enough.
Not sure if this has already been said but when speaking to my father after the game on Monday I stated that maybe Parky would go and we would now need to write-off this season - get someone new in and let them build ready for promotion next season.
If we managed to go up this year then that would be an added bonus but if we can put a structure in place to get promoted next season by getting the right person in NOW and giving them time to build from the bottom up then maybe that is the way to go.
[cite]Posted By: Swisdom[/cite]Not sure if this has already been said but when speaking to my father after the game on Monday I stated that maybe Parky would go and we would now need to write-off this season - get someone new in and let them build ready for promotion next season.
If we managed to go up this year then that would be an added bonus but if we can put a structure in place to get promoted next season by getting the right person in NOW and giving them time to build from the bottom up then maybe that is the way to go.
I think the "5th in the league and in the playoffs", whilst factually correct and is a bit misleading to outsiders. 3 points from 2nd and 3 points from 11th.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]I think the "5th in the league and in the playoffs", whilst factually correct and is a bit misleading to outsiders. 3 points from 2nd and 3 points from 11th.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
Sorry but this reads like a hasty re-writing of history so that any new manager who achieves less than 5th can be excused with "only three points from 11th when he came in".
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]I think the "5th in the league and in the playoffs", whilst factually correct and is a bit misleading to outsiders. 3 points from 2nd and 3 points from 11th.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
Sorry but this reads like a hasty re-writing of history so that any new manager who achieves less than 5th can be excused with "only three points from 11th when he came in".
Or so that any new manager who does well can be 'bigged up' even more by getting us promoted even though we were virtually mid-table when he took over?
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]I think the "5th in the league and in the playoffs", whilst factually correct and is a bit misleading to outsiders. 3 points from 2nd and 3 points from 11th.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
I fully agree with this.
I've been looking at the table for several weeks now and it's just concertina'd up massively. a bad run can leave you looking over your shoulder and a good run can leave you with delusions of grandeur. To the layman we seemed to be going along nicely but the performances have been getting worse.
Don't get me wrong I really liked Parky and think he did a solid job in a period of massive uncertainty however he got us to a level and I'm not convinced he could get much more from the players at his disposal.
Should we have given him a chance with spending some actualy money? - maybe
But maybe there's things going on in the background we are just now aware of
Agree mate. I wont be happy with anything less than promotion this year either.
Dont think we were going to get it prior to Tuesday and not sure if we will until it pans out with the new man but we should be up there if we can get a bit of self belief and momentum and stop the silliness like Monday. Any team that puts a run of 5 wins together in this league from the top half could emerge as real contenders and im hoping its us.
Also Isaw in a way would you seen it as failure if PP had failed to get us promoted this year? If so then surely he would have gone then? In which case the gamble is better now?
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]Also Isaw in a way would you seen it as failure if PP had failed to get us promoted this year? If so then surely he would have gone then? In which case the gamble is better now?
Good question
I would've been bitterly disappointed and yes, if with new owners and a bit of investment this month, Parky hadn't got us promoted you have to say that's failure and his contract wouldn't have been renewed.
However, regardless of what people say I personally was fairly confident we would've been in the top 6 in this diabolical shambles of a league, whereabouts, I don't know, with what consequence, I don't know, but I think even despite our recent poor run we would've got there. That it now then my mental benchmark.
To answer your question directly then IF the new manager hypothetically takes us to 4th and we get done in the semi's again. That's failure. That might be equalling the kind of place I thought Parky could take us but when you change you have to change for the better, therefore in my opinion parity, or lack of improvement, is failure, and a more significant failure than it would've been under Parky as we would have spent £££ clearing out the staff and perhaps paying compensation.
[cite]Posted By: RodneyCharltonTrotta[/cite]I think the "5th in the league and in the playoffs", whilst factually correct and is a bit misleading to outsiders. 3 points from 2nd and 3 points from 11th.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
Sorry but this reads like a hasty re-writing of history so that any new manager who achieves less than 5th can be excused with "only three points from 11th when he came in".
I recall a lot of excuses made for one manager who steered their team to a position considerably lower that the one they held when he took over, and who had a bit longer to do it.
There are numerous factors to take into consideration. The kind of fixed costs and squad the manager is lumped with when he takes over. Overall momentum and morale of the squad and even support. You'd need to look at it in context. If the new manager blew the budget on a player who got injured or failed to perform then it'd be on their shoulders. If he had no money and was forced to move players on, then the thinking-punter would be more forgiving
The new Board has intimated by its actions that a play-off position with no money both this season and last has been considered a sub-standard performance by Phil Parkinson.
I therefore expect nothing less than automatic promotion from the new man brought in and if it is Dennis Wise he will receive the support from me on here that so many of our fans gave Phil Parkinson when he was given the job.
Parky was with us 2 years or so wasn't he (as manager)? During that time he took us down from the Championship - ok he were not in a great position when he took over but we were certainly not a write off and IMO (for what it is worth) we had the players to keep us up that year. He then failed to get us promoted last season when my understanding (and there are far more Charlton educated people on this board than me who can no doubt correct me) was that we had the 2nd largest wage bill in the division - maybe Parky had no money to spend on new transfers but he had a group of players that to me should have been promoted and did not use them correctly (Jonjo a startling example of this). This summer the squad was decemated and he did well to put together the team/squad we have today. However surely no one can question that performances in recent weeks have spirraled badly, losing to the bottom team (Wallsall), then a very poor Swindon team and failing to beat 3rd from bottom? Rovers, in addition not getting a win despite 3 pens and 2 games against 10 men in Brighton&Colchester.
Did Parky desrve more time - maybe, would he have spent money well in the transfer window, we will never know. Ultimately any manager sacked when their team is 5th is unlucky but put into the context of some woeful performances at the end of his tenure and the fact he never completely won the crowd over I can understand it. I think we are at risk of rather overestimating Parky's contribution to the cause-we are afterall in our worst position for years at the current time.
Any new manager therefore should be allowed the time and patience of the crowd to do their job and hopefully to improve all aspects of the club rather than just a quick fix dash for promotion. That said obviously if we now finish lower than 5th the new manager will be seen as a failure by some/many.
Personally, I liked Parky but never beleived he was the man to get us promotion from this league (as much as I hoped he was the right man). I personally feel this league is abysmal and would expect the new manager to get us promoted through the play offs, sadly whilst absymal in general, there are two stand out teams in the league and Southampton & Brighton are both above us so will be very tough to catch. I would however also settle for mid table this year but only with signs of improvement to the way we play and to the squad (sometimes new players take time to gel), with a full assault on promotion next year.
Comments
Also if they wanted to be prudent with cash they could have kept parkinson and tested the water before giving him any cash. If they bring someone in theyll need to offer a carrot of available funds to the new person I think as anyone up for the job will have seen they arent afraid to fire.
And that's the strategic difference that I'm talking about. Doing what's necessary over the next 12-15 months to ensure that we can cross the (Championship) bridge when we come to it, and that it doesn't just break under our weight and plunge us back into the depths of League 1 again.
Dealing with the requirements of promotion from League 1 then trying to sustain a position in the Championship do not have to be viewed as separate, sequential activities. They are part of a continuum.
No-one said it would be easy. That's why the appointment of the new man is so important. But with a bit of money (rumoured to be £2.2m +VAT) and a sensible time frame (12 - 15 months), it can be done. If there is enough money to throw at the problem, then it should be achievable this season too.
I'm extending the time frame. But upping the ante. Getting out of League 1 is not the whole story. We have to stay out of it.
To answer the original question - has to be automatic or champions for me now. But I fear it is not that easy...
To act how they have, they obviously expect nothing else.
Whatever anyone says about Parkinson, I'm pretty sure he would've got us into the play-offs this season... not necessarily got through them, but into them.
To me, if the new bloke doesn't beat that then it's failure for him and the owners.
exactly
4. Champions
If your gonna sack a manager who has you in the play offs your target has to be one of the above.
If we managed to go up this year then that would be an added bonus but if we can put a structure in place to get promoted next season by getting the right person in NOW and giving them time to build from the bottom up then maybe that is the way to go.
Interesting idea.
Yes we were only a win or so off the auto spots but equally we are only a couple off losses away from the bottom half of the table. Perhaps the owners werent prepared to gamble on the former after witnessing the Swindon (a team chasing us) game.
Its ok for Sky and the rest of the media, who after paying us scant attention for years, now decide to sensationalise a dimissal and dress it up as clueless chairmen doing another Newcastle/ Hughton by practically implying we were nailed on for promotion. Whilst we were defintiley up there in the mix the league table doesnt paint the full picture of the reality at this point in time.
Sorry but this reads like a hasty re-writing of history so that any new manager who achieves less than 5th can be excused with "only three points from 11th when he came in".
PS I expect WHOEVER comes in to achieve at least 5th or higher with the squad at their disposal.
Or so that any new manager who does well can be 'bigged up' even more by getting us promoted even though we were virtually mid-table when he took over?
I fully agree with this.
I've been looking at the table for several weeks now and it's just concertina'd up massively. a bad run can leave you looking over your shoulder and a good run can leave you with delusions of grandeur. To the layman we seemed to be going along nicely but the performances have been getting worse.
Don't get me wrong I really liked Parky and think he did a solid job in a period of massive uncertainty however he got us to a level and I'm not convinced he could get much more from the players at his disposal.
Should we have given him a chance with spending some actualy money? - maybe
But maybe there's things going on in the background we are just now aware of
The ground is literally half full now.
Promotion by any means is acceptable.
in all fairness that's not good enough
whoever comes in either has to take us up this season
finishing above 5th, say 3rd is failure if we don't win the play-off's
to my mind the new fellas have rolled the dice big time
Dont think we were going to get it prior to Tuesday and not sure if we will until it pans out with the new man but we should be up there if we can get a bit of self belief and momentum and stop the silliness like Monday. Any team that puts a run of 5 wins together in this league from the top half could emerge as real contenders and im hoping its us.
Also Isaw in a way would you seen it as failure if PP had failed to get us promoted this year? If so then surely he would have gone then? In which case the gamble is better now?
Good question
I would've been bitterly disappointed and yes, if with new owners and a bit of investment this month, Parky hadn't got us promoted you have to say that's failure and his contract wouldn't have been renewed.
However, regardless of what people say I personally was fairly confident we would've been in the top 6 in this diabolical shambles of a league, whereabouts, I don't know, with what consequence, I don't know, but I think even despite our recent poor run we would've got there. That it now then my mental benchmark.
To answer your question directly then IF the new manager hypothetically takes us to 4th and we get done in the semi's again. That's failure. That might be equalling the kind of place I thought Parky could take us but when you change you have to change for the better, therefore in my opinion parity, or lack of improvement, is failure, and a more significant failure than it would've been under Parky as we would have spent £££ clearing out the staff and perhaps paying compensation.
There are numerous factors to take into consideration. The kind of fixed costs and squad the manager is lumped with when he takes over. Overall momentum and morale of the squad and even support. You'd need to look at it in context. If the new manager blew the budget on a player who got injured or failed to perform then it'd be on their shoulders. If he had no money and was forced to move players on, then the thinking-punter would be more forgiving
So what applies to one manager has to apply to another.
I therefore expect nothing less than automatic promotion from the new man brought in and if it is Dennis Wise he will receive the support from me on here that so many of our fans gave Phil Parkinson when he was given the job.
promotion from playoffs. losing in playoffs not acceptable.
FA Cup
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Did Parky desrve more time - maybe, would he have spent money well in the transfer window, we will never know. Ultimately any manager sacked when their team is 5th is unlucky but put into the context of some woeful performances at the end of his tenure and the fact he never completely won the crowd over I can understand it. I think we are at risk of rather overestimating Parky's contribution to the cause-we are afterall in our worst position for years at the current time.
Any new manager therefore should be allowed the time and patience of the crowd to do their job and hopefully to improve all aspects of the club rather than just a quick fix dash for promotion. That said obviously if we now finish lower than 5th the new manager will be seen as a failure by some/many.
Personally, I liked Parky but never beleived he was the man to get us promotion from this league (as much as I hoped he was the right man). I personally feel this league is abysmal and would expect the new manager to get us promoted through the play offs, sadly whilst absymal in general, there are two stand out teams in the league and Southampton & Brighton are both above us so will be very tough to catch. I would however also settle for mid table this year but only with signs of improvement to the way we play and to the squad (sometimes new players take time to gel), with a full assault on promotion next year.