We have cut our costs, thanks to the generousity of our former directors and gradually easing out our high earners but are still living beyond our means. The point is that all the other clubs will be in the same boat, so in time players in Div 1 will be earning about 50k per year, rather than three times that salary. Something similar, proportionally, will happen in the championship, except for the ex prem clubs and clubs owned by billionaires. Its a reality check. Richard will foot the bill for the time being and hope for a big investor who fancies a tilt to the premier league land of milk and honey.
The biggest difference with Administration (ignoring the downside) is that we would probably have reduced the £8m we owe to the banks. At 10p in the pound that would reduce it to £800k. Palace agreed 1p in the pound.
[cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]The biggest difference with Administration (ignoring the downside) is that we would probably have reduced the £8m we owe to the banks. At 10p in the pound that would reduce it to £800k. Palace agreed 1p in the pound.
I imagine that one of the critical reasons they got permission from the FL to do this DIY administration (as Henry succinctly puts it) without a points deduction is that no external creditors were asked to take a hit....something else we can be proud of in light of the shafting of small guys by other clubs.
It still doesn't really make sense to me. RM has had a health scare and he has 2 children. Realistically, I would have expected that he would seek to reduce his personal stress and consolidate the financial future for his children, but he appears to have done the opposite. I cling to my stubborn belief that there has to be more going on behind the scenes than he is able to discuss at the moment.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Sir Maurice Hatter's continuing involvement , via his son, is of massive importance IMHO.
Not sure what or why but I'm much happier that he is still around.[/quote]
Agreed - i have a feeling he is going to be the saviour and he's certainly not short of a few quid. I still wonder how Michael Grade must feel when the directors are discussing all these financial crisis's. Always though his family had some serious wealth. Guess not.
Sorry if it has already been covered and I've missed it but it says on the OS that the lack of home friendly this season, was it just stated that we couldn't afford to have one this year or were there any other reasons?
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]It still doesn't really make sense to me. RM has had a health scare and he has 2 children. Realistically, I would have expected that he would seek to reduce his personal stress and consolidate the financial future for his children, but he appears to have done the opposite. I cling to my stubborn belief that there has to be more going on behind the scenes than he is able to discuss at the moment.
It does make you wonder whether there is a possible sale in the pipeline which is contingent upon a restructering of the debt.
If we don't get promoted this season, I'd imagine proper administration is a highly likely scenario. So either:
- We go up, become a more attractive propostion, new buyer comes along. - We stay down, go into admin, new buyer comes along and rescues us. - We stay down, go into admin, no new buyer comes along - I don't want to think about the rest.
In any case, this may be the last season that RM is at the helm. Thank you, again, Richard, for all you have done and tried to do to keep us afloat.
And if we had been forced into administration, at present the team would have a points total of -3 and be bottom of the League.
.
Which would have probably condemned us to no promotion prospects this season, and another year guaranteed in the Third Division. Also, with lower wages being offered, we wouldn't be a particularly attractive prospect for good quality signings.
At least taking the route we have, we've given ourselves the chance of a decent tilt at automatic promotion.
Let's trust we can take that chance.
Thought the most telling thing RM said was that even after all the paring to the bone, we are not a financially viable operation as presently set-up in div 3 - but we would be in the championship (that is essentially what he said, isn't it?). So it really is literally a case of promotion or bust.
We're facing a not dissimilar financial crisis at KCCC at the moment, as some of you will know. Cost-cutting can only take you so far and ultimately you have to find new revenue streams. For CAFC, that could be promotion. For KCCC, there is no such option so the new revenues are meant to come from housing, hotel and conference centre developments on the St Lawrence ground. After four years of planning, we still haven't managed to lay the first brick, though - and the hotel developer has just pulled out. There are no easy or quick-fix options in the current economic climate, I'm afraid...
Like the DIY admin phrase. Very neat, that...let's hope the one other remaining option - i.e. non-DIY admin - is rendered redundant by promotion.
What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
Could be worse. We could have added another 10k to the ground (like some mad people wanted to do) in the prem years. We will never be a club of that size and im glad we never went through with it.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
I think that is the much more likely scenario.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]what Ketman said.
thats what i bloody said but you lot chose to ignore it poxy fooking Clique
either that or i took a million words to explain it and still you didnt understand ;-)
[quote][cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.[/quote]
[quote][cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.[/quote]
I think that is the much more likely scenario.[/quote]
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]what Ketman said.[/quote]
thats what i bloody said but you lot chose to ignore it poxy fooking Clique
either that or i took a million words to explain it and still you didnt understand ;-)[/quote]
we've given up listening to you first all we dont want benson then we do, then we dont, were not even sure you know what you mean ;-)
Well the earners I would guess at KY, JS and TR so maybe were looking to offload TR wouldnt be surprise unless im misssing someone
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
Would be a great result if RM has friends willing to do so, but ultimately they would have to accept that the terms now in place for the other non-bank creditors, would also have to apply to their new investment. Result being more debt accumulates on the balance sheet that only gets removed over time back in the premiership ? Tougher times and more difficult to attract more friendly debt, especially as we have been to the well previously and there is now a history of what can happen to that debt should our status not improve.
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]
[cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.
I think that is the much more likely scenario.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]what Ketman said.
thats what i bloody said but you lot chose to ignore it poxy fooking Clique
either that or i took a million words to explain it and still you didnt understand ;-)
we've given up listening to you first all we dont want benson then we do, then we dont, were not even sure you know what you mean ;-)
Well the earners I would guess at KY, JS and TR so maybe were looking to offload TR wouldnt be surprise unless im misssing someone
i know i dont even still know about Benson as for not listening i am used to that no one listens to me at home or work
The bit that concerns me within all these recent developments is the continued 'hope' for new investment.
Richard said it himself at last November's Q&A that "we don't go looking."
May I respectfully suggest, as I did last year, that our business strategy needs to be a bloody sight more pro-active. The recent debt reduction may make us more attractive to potential buyers, but those buyers still need to be identifed and given the hard sell. There are plenty of other clubs out there fighting for new investment and we can't afford to sit in the shop window (red and white lights gleaming) 'hoping' that a rich punter stops to look and then knock on our door.
Somebody re-assure me, please, that we are doing more than just 'hope'.
Would be a great result if RM has friends willing to do so, but ultimately they would have to accept that the terms now in place for the other non-bank creditors, would also have to apply to their new investment. Result being more debt accumulates on the balance sheet that only gets removed over time back in the premiership ? Tougher times and more difficult to attract more friendly debt, especially as we have been to the well previously and there is now a history of what can happen to that debt should our status not improve.
That raises the interesting question about whether the "deferred lenders" have insisted to RM as part of the deal that any new capital going in is in the form of equity (at least as far as RM's new money is concerned). One imagines they have if they're giving up so much to give the Club the best chance of survival. Obviously RM would want as free a hand as possible but if he is putting in his £5m to keep the show on the road his season as equity, surely he would only be interested in co-investors putting in equity aswell and not loans.
I am struggling to make the numbers add up to any sense. Our income must be in excess of £5m (8,000 season tickets at average of say £200 each (which i would have thought minimum plus 8,000 day sales for 23 games at average of £15 each plus some some tv/sponsonship etc for £0.6m). Payments of £1m for loan , £0.5m rates, £0.2m for academy (net of VG and sponsorship). This means £3.3M for other non player costs if it is true that income is breakeven before any player costs. Player costs of £3-£4m still semms very high if average player is asaid to be on £2k per week. If £3.3m is bearing costs to the bone it seems very high. How do other clubs manage? I doubt clubs like Millwall, huddrsfield, swindon spend anything like this let alone some of the smaller clubs.
"His objective in the next couple of years will include trying to attract a suitable partner to bring outside investment, and attempt to take the club forward in the correct way."
[cite]Posted By: redman[/cite]I am struggling to make the numbers add up to any sense. Our income must be in excess of £5m (8,000 season tickets at average of say £200 each (which i would have thought minimum plus 8,000 day sales for 23 games at average of £15 each plus some some tv/sponsonship etc for £0.6m). Payments of £1m for loan , £0.5m rates, £0.2m for academy (net of VG and sponsorship). This means £3.3M for other non player costs if it is true that income is breakeven before any player costs. Player costs of £3-£4m still semms very high if average player is asaid to be on £2k per week.
If £3.3m is bearing costs to the bone it seems very high. How do other clubs manage? I doubt clubs like Millwall, huddrsfield, swindon spend anything like this let alone some of the smaller clubs.
only quick maths but:
8000 st's @ £200 is 1.6mill
8000 walkup per game for 23 games is 2.76mill
VG only contributes something like £120k to the academy I think, correct me if I'm wrong. I doubt the sponsorship is paying the majority of the costs either.
Then you have the obvious high earners, Semedo and Racon signed after relegation from the Prem and Youga who signed a new contract while in the Championship. Surely all on decent Champ wages of £6-8k week. Henry did mention high earners being on around 3 times as much as the average.
The likes of Dailly and Reid probably get more than the average £2k wage.
Then of course Parky, his staff and the club staff all cost money.
After that there are other costs we've missed out I'd imagine.
"His objective in the next couple of years will include trying to attract a suitable partner to bring outside investment, and attempt to take the club forward in the correct way."
So, what's your explanation for Richard trotting out the "we don't go looking" line then?
And a stated objective in May 2008 is one thing .. but is there evidence that any attempt to achieve the objective has been or is being made?
Please see following (lifted) explanation of business rates - they are collected by Greenwich Council, but they are NOT set by Greenwich Council. The money goes to central government and is then restributed according to local government according to the funding formula. The level of business rates paid by CAFC is nothing to do with the council.
The Local Government Finance Act 1988, with follow-up legislation, provided a fresh administrative framework for assessing and billing, but did not redefine the legal unit of property, the hereditament, that had been developed through rating case law. Properties are assessed in a rating list with a rateable value, a valuation of their annual rental value on a fixed valuation date using assumptions fixed by statute. Rating lists are created and maintained by the Valuation Office Agency, a UK Government Executive Agency. Rating lists can be altered either to reflect changes in properties, or as valuations are appealed against; new valuation lists are created every five years.
Billing and collection is the responsibility of the local authorities who are funded by the tax, but rather than receipts being retained directly, they are pooled centrally and then are redistributed. The rateable value is multiplied by a centrally-set fraction to produce the annual bill; a number of reliefs are available, such as those for charities and small businesses. In 2005/06, £19.9 billion was collected in business rates, representing 4.35% of the total UK tax income.[2]
Comments
I imagine that one of the critical reasons they got permission from the FL to do this DIY administration (as Henry succinctly puts it) without a points deduction is that no external creditors were asked to take a hit....something else we can be proud of in light of the shafting of small guys by other clubs.
Not sure what or why but I'm much happier that he is still around.[/quote]
Agreed - i have a feeling he is going to be the saviour and he's certainly not short of a few quid. I still wonder how Michael Grade must feel when the directors are discussing all these financial crisis's. Always though his family had some serious wealth. Guess not.
It does make you wonder whether there is a possible sale in the pipeline which is contingent upon a restructering of the debt.
- We go up, become a more attractive propostion, new buyer comes along.
- We stay down, go into admin, new buyer comes along and rescues us.
- We stay down, go into admin, no new buyer comes along - I don't want to think about the rest.
In any case, this may be the last season that RM is at the helm. Thank you, again, Richard, for all you have done and tried to do to keep us afloat.
.
Which would have probably condemned us to no promotion prospects this season, and another year guaranteed in the Third Division. Also, with lower wages being offered, we wouldn't be a particularly attractive prospect for good quality signings.
At least taking the route we have, we've given ourselves the chance of a decent tilt at automatic promotion.
Let's trust we can take that chance.
We're facing a not dissimilar financial crisis at KCCC at the moment, as some of you will know. Cost-cutting can only take you so far and ultimately you have to find new revenue streams. For CAFC, that could be promotion. For KCCC, there is no such option so the new revenues are meant to come from housing, hotel and conference centre developments on the St Lawrence ground. After four years of planning, we still haven't managed to lay the first brick, though - and the hotel developer has just pulled out. There are no easy or quick-fix options in the current economic climate, I'm afraid...
Like the DIY admin phrase. Very neat, that...let's hope the one other remaining option - i.e. non-DIY admin - is rendered redundant by promotion.
I think that is the much more likely scenario.
We will never be a club of that size and im glad we never went through with it.
But you do have to live long enough to see it.
thats what i bloody said but you lot chose to ignore it poxy fooking Clique
either that or i took a million words to explain it and still you didnt understand ;-)
[quote][cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: Ketman[/cite]What about if Richard attracts outside Investment that is effectively Not a buy out ie getting someone else in to share the Financial Load, think that is still a possibility.[/quote]
I think that is the much more likely scenario.[/quote]
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]what Ketman said.[/quote]
thats what i bloody said but you lot chose to ignore it poxy fooking Clique
either that or i took a million words to explain it and still you didnt understand ;-)[/quote]
we've given up listening to you first all we dont want benson then we do, then we dont, were not even sure you know what you mean ;-)
Well the earners I would guess at KY, JS and TR so maybe were looking to offload TR wouldnt be surprise unless im misssing someone
Would be a great result if RM has friends willing to do so, but ultimately they would have to accept that the terms now in place for the other non-bank creditors, would also have to apply to their new investment. Result being more debt accumulates on the balance sheet that only gets removed over time back in the premiership ? Tougher times and more difficult to attract more friendly debt, especially as we have been to the well previously and there is now a history of what can happen to that debt should our status not improve.
i know i dont even still know about Benson as for not listening i am used to that no one listens to me at home or work
Richard said it himself at last November's Q&A that "we don't go looking."
May I respectfully suggest, as I did last year, that our business strategy needs to be a bloody sight more pro-active. The recent debt reduction may make us more attractive to potential buyers, but those buyers still need to be identifed and given the hard sell. There are plenty of other clubs out there fighting for new investment and we can't afford to sit in the shop window (red and white lights gleaming) 'hoping' that a rich punter stops to look and then knock on our door.
Somebody re-assure me, please, that we are doing more than just 'hope'.
That raises the interesting question about whether the "deferred lenders" have insisted to RM as part of the deal that any new capital going in is in the form of equity (at least as far as RM's new money is concerned). One imagines they have if they're giving up so much to give the Club the best chance of survival. Obviously RM would want as free a hand as possible but if he is putting in his £5m to keep the show on the road his season as equity, surely he would only be interested in co-investors putting in equity aswell and not loans.
If £3.3m is bearing costs to the bone it seems very high. How do other clubs manage? I doubt clubs like Millwall, huddrsfield, swindon spend anything like this let alone some of the smaller clubs.
I strongly suspect it is, and that the 'we don't go looking' is a line that i don't believe.
In May 2008 he offered a different approach here
"His objective in the next couple of years will include trying to attract a suitable partner to bring outside investment, and attempt to take the club forward in the correct way."
only quick maths but:
8000 st's @ £200 is 1.6mill
8000 walkup per game for 23 games is 2.76mill
or £4,360,000.00
I think
Then you have the obvious high earners, Semedo and Racon signed after relegation from the Prem and Youga who signed a new contract while in the Championship. Surely all on decent Champ wages of £6-8k week. Henry did mention high earners being on around 3 times as much as the average.
The likes of Dailly and Reid probably get more than the average £2k wage.
Then of course Parky, his staff and the club staff all cost money.
After that there are other costs we've missed out I'd imagine.
So, what's your explanation for Richard trotting out the "we don't go looking" line then?
And a stated objective in May 2008 is one thing .. but is there evidence that any attempt to achieve the objective has been or is being made?
The Local Government Finance Act 1988, with follow-up legislation, provided a fresh administrative framework for assessing and billing, but did not redefine the legal unit of property, the hereditament, that had been developed through rating case law. Properties are assessed in a rating list with a rateable value, a valuation of their annual rental value on a fixed valuation date using assumptions fixed by statute. Rating lists are created and maintained by the Valuation Office Agency, a UK Government Executive Agency. Rating lists can be altered either to reflect changes in properties, or as valuations are appealed against; new valuation lists are created every five years.
Billing and collection is the responsibility of the local authorities who are funded by the tax, but rather than receipts being retained directly, they are pooled centrally and then are redistributed. The rateable value is multiplied by a centrally-set fraction to produce the annual bill; a number of reliefs are available, such as those for charities and small businesses. In 2005/06, £19.9 billion was collected in business rates, representing 4.35% of the total UK tax income.[2]