I wasn't using anti drinking as a debate for pro smoking I was using it as an example of the I don't do it/like it so lets ban it brigade.
I smoke because i choose to. People drink because they choose to. It all comes down to choice everyone makes choices whether they are right or wrong. You make your choice you live with the consequences.
I started smoking when I was 15 I am now fi... a lot older. Why I started I'm not sure probably the same reason as any other "cool" thing pier(sp) pressure, because you think you look good etc. I do consider giving up from time to time and have stopped for long periods in the past. Whether that makes me a bad person I'll let everyone else decide.
It's been suggested that smoking is a social "thing". That's nonsense. Smokers are addicted to a lethal cocktail of poisons that kill and cause immeasurable harm. They cannot give up or else they would. Of those that do try to stop the vast majority are sucked back in because of the strength of chemical addiction not because they miss the comraderie of their smoking pals huddled in a draughty toilet in a football stadium. I think you can see where I stand on smoking but actually I couldn't give a stuff if all the worlds smokers puffed themselves into oblivion. What I do object to is being subjected to their second hand stench and poison whilst I am taking a piss or for that matter anything else. I see the results of "social" smoking everyday and trust me it ain't pretty.
[cite]Posted By: Harveys Trainer[/cite]All good points Windscreen, I still don't think the anti drinking argument is the best way to win the pro-smoking one.
The same as you don't win the legalise drugs argument by comparing the dangers of it to drinking.
I think someone Mum once said "Two wrongs, don't make a right."
The pro-choice argument is much stronger and much more valid.
"I don't smoke, and nor do I intend to, but I'm uneasy about a blanket ban because it sets a dangerous precedent about the reach of the state." Lembit Opik, ex Liberal Democrat MP
"This is not an issue about smoking. It's about freedom. I do not smoke and I do not like going into smoky places, and so I don't. That is my choice. There is no need for more nanny-state government interference." Philip Davies, Conservative MP
That freedom is fine as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's freedom. Me? I wan't the freedom to breath fresh air without being choked by someone else's filthy stinking anti-social habit.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]It's been suggested that smoking is a social "thing". That's nonsense. Smokers are addicted to a lethal cocktail of poisons that kill and cause immeasurable harm. They cannot give up or else they would. Of those that do try to stop the vast majority are sucked back in because of the strength of chemical addiction not because they miss the comraderie of their smoking pals huddled in a draughty toilet in a football stadium. I think you can see where I stand on smoking but actually I couldn't give a stuff if all the worlds smokers puffed themselves into oblivion. What I do object to is being subjected to their second hand stench and poison whilst I am taking a piss or for that matter anything else. I see the results of "social" smoking everyday and trust me it ain't pretty.
I thought the physical addiction was gone after 1 week of not smoking? That's what everybody seem to says.
I found it a struggle breaking the "habit" rather than the "joy" of smoking. Had a routine I was in and felt like I needed one at those points in the day. I managed to break that routine by accident and ain't smoked for 3 months. Long may it continue cos it stinks!
In some respects you are correct SLL. The chemical addiction does cease quite soon after smoking ceases but addiction is much more complex than just the chemical aspects. The body remembers what the chemical addiction did and does not give that up easily. Much is made of the smoking "ritual" but that is just a manifestation of our mind / body making excuses to have another smoke. Good luck with your attempt to stop.
I smoked for 30 years, I was on at least 40 a day at the end. Most cant stop because it is an addiction and a very hard one to break. Its an habitual addiction so you are always wanting one when you would normally have one no matter where you are. I packed up 4 years ago and have never wanted another one since. Not even the slightest desire for one, I dont like the smell of it now but do understand the need to do it. I think maybe the club should open up somewhere outside fenced off so that we dont get people smoking in the toilets. i'm so glad i dont have to stand outside a pub in the rain to get my fix but i have done that in the past.
It's a fair point NLA. Regardless of personal views the issue of smokers at The Valley has to be addressed. At present it seems the club has it's head in the sand. Can't see any real problem with allowing a fenced off area outside the stadium being made available.
i tell you what though, why the feck does my nine year old have to choke like buggery when he wants a pee at half time.If you want a fag and you're billy big bollocks, just have one on the concourse.It's worse when it's condensed in the bogs.
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]i tell you what though, why the feck does my nine year old have to choke like buggery when he wants a pee at half time.If you want a fag and you're billy big bollocks, just have one on the concourse.It's worse when it's condensed in the bogs.
Thats true, if your going to do it then do it somewhere in the open.
[cite]Posted By: northstandsteve[/cite]i tell you what though, why the feck does my nine year old have to choke like buggery when he wants a pee at half time.If you want a fag and you're billy big bollocks, just have one on the concourse.It's worse when it's condensed in the bogs.
Thats true, if your going to do it then do it somewhere in the open.
What he said. On the stair well or even in the seated areas would be better than in the bogs, the most confined area in the ground.
As a 43yr old who's been smoking since the age of 13 (shame on me) I do feel the need of a fag during a match, but as i know its not allowed, i just wait it out and then smoke til my lungs are burning once i get out of the ground. I agree that the club could try to do something about this. For those who say its only for a couple of hours, think back to the play-off semi, which went into extra time, added with the obvious stress put on us smokers. I totally agree that non smokers shouldn't have to be made to breath in that filthy stuff and smoking in the bogs is definately not the answer. I took my 9 yr old son to his first game last season and he had to endure that when going to the loo. I don't smoke in my house so he doesn't have to put up with the stink. If tobacco was discovered today, it would be classed as a class A highly addictive drug (as would alcohol)But it would be a very strong goverment to actually ban it completely, i just wish they would so i could finally quit. And for those who say about the finacial burden we smokers put on the NHS, A smoker contributes about 6 times more tax through the purchase of tobacco than the NHS spends on treating him. So how about the govt spend a little of that building little "smoking compounds" at football grounds? :-)
If there is too much smoke in the toilets maybe you should have your 9 year olds take a pee on the concourse, that would soon make the club do something about the toilet.
If the club spent money (something we don't have) providing an area outside the ground would those that are willing to smoke in the toilets now go stand in the pouring rain or would they go back to the toilets - after the club have spent the money?
As for the stress of a two hour (plus for extra time) match? Do smokers suffer more stress than the rest of us? What do the non-smokers do at half time to calm their nerves?
For personal reasons I'm about as anti-smoking as one can be but even if I wasn't I would be rather more active complaining about it if my son were being subjected to that leathal smoke.
I don't allow people to smoke in my house, and I won't go to other people's houses where they smoke. It's illigal to smoke indoors in 'public buildings', it should be stopped by the club.
There should be no debate about it, it should be stopped.
Smoking in the Stadium is illegal. yes, we know it goes on but it is.
Three hurdles to overcome to allow smoking OUTSIDE the Stadium.
1. Getting the Police/Local Authority who licence the Stadium to allow it.
2. Controlling an external Smoking area
3. The Cost of 2.
On 1. There are examples from other clubs so this is not impossible but both Spanners and Derby are new stadiums with large-ish concourses around them. At The Valley much of the surrounding area is public streets. But those examples show it's not impossible.
On 2. Police won't want gates just opened and neither will the Club as it could allow people to sneak in (I know all the jokes about "more likely to want to sneak out") or could lead to conflict. OK, unlikely for most games but a few games last season it could have been an issue.
On 3. Buying barriers to set up four Smoking areas costs. There might be some at the club now but I don't know.
Bigger cost would be stewards x four. Yes, "they all stand around all day" but they don't. They have to stand where they are told to meet the licence for the Stadium so extra stewards would be needed.
So how do YOU take it forward - because it is going to have to be YOU as the Off-it option of getting the Ball Boys to do it (only joking, Offy) won't work.
Would any of YOU volunteer to Steward a smoking area in your stand for 20 mins every game. You'd have to set it up and close it down and maybe do some training as well (yes, stewards are regulated and have to be trained so no more jokes please).
you'd do it for free but you'd get a nice day-glo jacket and the chance to have a fag.
Might not work, might be that the hurdles are too high to jump but either YOU try or we have yet another thread on smoking at the Valley.
I don't have a problem with an area being allocated (although I wouldn't want money taken away from the team to pay for it) I just think there should be no debate about smoking in the toilets. The club should enforce the ban.
no debate on smoking anywhere inside the ground IMO should be enforced with an iron fist
but the way football fans are treated in the country is scandleous
what Derby done for away fans was nothing short of magic and i would like to see us replicate that make Charlton a ground away fans want to come to would increase the gate imo
and as for home fans would it really be so difficult to create a section outside the nth, east and west i dont think so
Is it actually against the law to smoke inside a ground? Since the terraces aren't an enclosed space and the outer areas (such as the area between the Seed & Main stand at your place) which are "inside" the ground but are completely open air.
I thought the banning of smoking in stadiums was an FA, Premier League and Football League decision rather than it being actually enshrined within the laws the government passed?
As for the cost of setting up external smoking areas...it's some fencing that costs sod all that can be moved around and 1 steward per area is needed if there are no stewards available at half time from the existing pool.
[cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]The toilets are 'indide' and from what I understand so are all the concourses behind the North Upper Stand.
I meant on the terrace and in the unenclosed areas, such as the concourses behind your main stand, by Seed etc. I thought it was a football decision to ban smoking inside grounds....just like it was a transport authority decision to ban smoking on train platforms.
[cite]Posted By: tangoflash[/cite] A smoker contributes about 6 times more tax through the purchase of tobacco than the NHS spends on treating him.
My mate at work says this all the time to justify his smoking. Found out he's been smoking duty-frees for the last few years! :-)
The club should begin to enforce the law with the help of the relevant authorities. Tough love etc.
Some people very close to me have been battling cancer (not smoking related cancer) for the past couple of years. Some have beaten it and others not so lucky but went down fighting to their last breath. Smokers know all the risks associated with smoking so to flout the law and have such disregard for non-smokers (as well a dis-regard for their own health) makes me sick. I've got a good mind to call the council and police myself next home game.
Smoking is banned in all indoor public places. This includes restaurants, pubs, theaters, cinemas, clubs and work spaces. Smoking is banned on all public transport and on railway platforms. Even though these platforms are often not indoors, they are regarded as being "substantially enclosed," and so smoking remains illegal. The same rule applies to other substantially enclosed places such as football stadiums and outdoor sports arenas.
Read more: UK Smoking Rules | eHow.co.uk http://www.ehow.co.uk/list_6600493_uk-smoking-rules.html#ixzz0xby00rNd
Comments
I smoke because i choose to. People drink because they choose to. It all comes down to choice everyone makes choices whether they are right or wrong. You make your choice you live with the consequences.
I started smoking when I was 15 I am now fi... a lot older. Why I started I'm not sure probably the same reason as any other "cool" thing pier(sp) pressure, because you think you look good etc. I do consider giving up from time to time and have stopped for long periods in the past. Whether that makes me a bad person I'll let everyone else decide.
That freedom is fine as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's freedom. Me? I wan't the freedom to breath fresh air without being choked by someone else's filthy stinking anti-social habit.
An addiction is not a choice.
Is a smokers 'freedom' to smoke greater than my freedom to breathe clean air?
I really wish the people who smoke in the toilets at half time wouldn't.
I thought the physical addiction was gone after 1 week of not smoking? That's what everybody seem to says.
I found it a struggle breaking the "habit" rather than the "joy" of smoking. Had a routine I was in and felt like I needed one at those points in the day. I managed to break that routine by accident and ain't smoked for 3 months. Long may it continue cos it stinks!
when are we going to have a designated smoking area like derby and treat all fans with a bit more respect irelevant if they smoke or not
the derby model should be followed by every club in the land
do we still have a fans forum or not
Sorry sitemaster i thought i was on topic having mentioned getting an area for the smokers ;-)
Thats true, if your going to do it then do it somewhere in the open.
What he said. On the stair well or even in the seated areas would be better than in the bogs, the most confined area in the ground.
Would be good if we could have a answer rather than the one I expect to be carpeted out with regards to cost.
We have an opportunity to give back to a large percentage of its fan base. And to relieve conflict with those that don't smoke
The feeling off pure joy at Derby for smokers and non smokers that was playing cricket against the cop car that day was worth the entrance fee alone
I have not felt so well treated at any of the grounds I have visited
Derby also said it had reduced conflicts
Happy Alan that is funny
Not sure if this counts as being legally outside of the ground or is just a case of stewards applying a bit of common sense and turning a blind eye.
If the club spent money (something we don't have) providing an area outside the ground would those that are willing to smoke in the toilets now go stand in the pouring rain or would they go back to the toilets - after the club have spent the money?
As for the stress of a two hour (plus for extra time) match? Do smokers suffer more stress than the rest of us? What do the non-smokers do at half time to calm their nerves?
For personal reasons I'm about as anti-smoking as one can be but even if I wasn't I would be rather more active complaining about it if my son were being subjected to that leathal smoke.
I don't allow people to smoke in my house, and I won't go to other people's houses where they smoke. It's illigal to smoke indoors in 'public buildings', it should be stopped by the club.
There should be no debate about it, it should be stopped.
Smoking in the Stadium is illegal. yes, we know it goes on but it is.
Three hurdles to overcome to allow smoking OUTSIDE the Stadium.
1. Getting the Police/Local Authority who licence the Stadium to allow it.
2. Controlling an external Smoking area
3. The Cost of 2.
On 1. There are examples from other clubs so this is not impossible but both Spanners and Derby are new stadiums with large-ish concourses around them. At The Valley much of the surrounding area is public streets. But those examples show it's not impossible.
On 2. Police won't want gates just opened and neither will the Club as it could allow people to sneak in (I know all the jokes about "more likely to want to sneak out") or could lead to conflict. OK, unlikely for most games but a few games last season it could have been an issue.
On 3. Buying barriers to set up four Smoking areas costs. There might be some at the club now but I don't know.
Bigger cost would be stewards x four. Yes, "they all stand around all day" but they don't. They have to stand where they are told to meet the licence for the Stadium so extra stewards would be needed.
So how do YOU take it forward - because it is going to have to be YOU as the Off-it option of getting the Ball Boys to do it (only joking, Offy) won't work.
Would any of YOU volunteer to Steward a smoking area in your stand for 20 mins every game. You'd have to set it up and close it down and maybe do some training as well (yes, stewards are regulated and have to be trained so no more jokes please).
you'd do it for free but you'd get a nice day-glo jacket and the chance to have a fag.
Might not work, might be that the hurdles are too high to jump but either YOU try or we have yet another thread on smoking at the Valley.
I don't have a problem with an area being allocated (although I wouldn't want money taken away from the team to pay for it) I just think there should be no debate about smoking in the toilets. The club should enforce the ban.
but the way football fans are treated in the country is scandleous
what Derby done for away fans was nothing short of magic and i would like to see us replicate that make Charlton a ground away fans want to come to would increase the gate imo
and as for home fans would it really be so difficult to create a section outside the nth, east and west i dont think so
I thought the banning of smoking in stadiums was an FA, Premier League and Football League decision rather than it being actually enshrined within the laws the government passed?
As for the cost of setting up external smoking areas...it's some fencing that costs sod all that can be moved around and 1 steward per area is needed if there are no stewards available at half time from the existing pool.
I meant on the terrace and in the unenclosed areas, such as the concourses behind your main stand, by Seed etc. I thought it was a football decision to ban smoking inside grounds....just like it was a transport authority decision to ban smoking on train platforms.
My mate at work says this all the time to justify his smoking. Found out he's been smoking duty-frees for the last few years! :-)
The club should begin to enforce the law with the help of the relevant authorities. Tough love etc.
Some people very close to me have been battling cancer (not smoking related cancer) for the past couple of years. Some have beaten it and others not so lucky but went down fighting to their last breath. Smokers know all the risks associated with smoking so to flout the law and have such disregard for non-smokers (as well a dis-regard for their own health) makes me sick. I've got a good mind to call the council and police myself next home game.
Smoking is banned in all indoor public places. This includes restaurants, pubs, theaters, cinemas, clubs and work spaces. Smoking is banned on all public transport and on railway platforms. Even though these platforms are often not indoors, they are regarded as being "substantially enclosed," and so smoking remains illegal. The same rule applies to other substantially enclosed places such as football stadiums and outdoor sports arenas.
Read more: UK Smoking Rules | eHow.co.uk http://www.ehow.co.uk/list_6600493_uk-smoking-rules.html#ixzz0xby00rNd