If we were to go up then maybe we would have a chance of Spearing but can't see him coming down to League 1. Not sure how well he has done at Leicester but he did score the other week v Watford and although he may not be Liverpool quality, reckon he is decent enough for the Champ now (at 21 plenty of time to develop still to become a Prem player).
If we have a tie-up with any of the 'top' clubs, shouldn't it be Arsenal or Chelsea? I seem to recall that Song did well enough for us, and presumably we can claim to have had a bit to do with his progress.
A 17 or 18 year old moving to London from Liverpool throws up all kinds of non-football related issues, although maybe not as bad as moving in the opposite direction (look out, Jonjo). To expect a young player to perform consistently well at a decent level under those circumstances is optimistic in the extreme. Lads who do not have to relocate, or who know the London area already, would be a better bet, in my view.
As AFKA has said, being a feeder club for anyone feels horrible, but if we can eventually pick up players permanently who are not quite good enough for the very top tier of the Premier League, then that will suit me fine. After all, it should be the natural consequence of the vast influx of overseas players into the top flight ... the lads who would have made it in previous years should now be plying their trade a division or two lower ... which is where we are.
In summary, feeder club? No thanks. Beneficiary of overspill from the top clubs? Yes please.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]A 17 or 18 year old moving to London from Liverpool throws up all kinds of non-football related issues, although maybe not as bad as moving in the opposite direction (look out, Jonjo). To expect a young player to perform consistently well at a decent level under those circumstances is optimistic in the extreme. Lads who do not have to relocate, or who know the London area already, would be a better bet, in my view.
These young lads aren't necessarily from Up North originally though - like wise Chelsea's boys aren't all from West London. Arsenal's youth aren't even all English. Michael Carrick is a Geordie and he came through West Ham's system.
I don't see we have much to fear here. Doesn;t sound like Liverpool get first option or anything and even if they do surely that would be in the circumstance we decided to sell, not that we're obliged to let them have which ever youngsters they choose, whenever they want them.
As long as we don't end up with five 16 year olds on loan all with clauses saying they must play then this sort of thing would be fine. As AFKA says, no harm in opening a few avenues for us to get a head start on cheap loans and signings as whatever division we're in next year we're going to having to make the very most of what little money we have to spend.
Taking on board all Dave Rudd's comments I have to say the cynic in me would suggest that the reason we might have a tie up with Liverpool is that it gives them an "in" to a different "pool" (excuse the pun). I accept that all top clubs have scouts all over the place but why not have a second "breeding" ground at the other end of the country.
What if Liverpool were to send one or two of their coaches down (perhaps on an exchange basis) to our Academy to teach the 15 to 17 year olds their ways. The equivalents of the likes of Shelvey could then "sold" by us to our partners and in return, we would get two or three of their lesser 18 to 21 year olds on loan or even on a "part exchange" deal.
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]If we have a tie-up with any of the 'top' clubs, shouldn't it be Arsenal or Chelsea? I seem to recall that Song did well enough for us, and presumably we can claim to have had a bit to do with his progress.
A 17 or 18 year old moving to London from Liverpool throws up all kinds of non-football related issues, although maybe not as bad as moving in the opposite direction (look out, Jonjo). To expect a young player to perform consistently well at a decent level under those circumstances is optimistic in the extreme. Lads who do not have to relocate, or who know the London area already, would be a better bet, in my view.
Fair point but I guess this was just the right opportunity to talk about a deal like this.
Also the players they send us I imagine will more likely be 18-20 year olds (maybe more, as said Spearing is 21, they probably have kept others that age). Not a huge difference, but I doubt we'll get 17 year olds just after they've turned pro. More likely players with reserve team experience, maybe the odd cup game for Liverpool.
Good point Exiled as well, that Sterling is one example, they signed him from QPR this season.
In response to the original question nothing else 'YES' simples, can only work out well for them imo but then again if we get a few young ressie's who could make a difference to us but they would get the better side of it
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]A plastic scouse fan sits near me at work (He's never been to Anfield, was not born in Liverpool) and is harping on about us now being nothing more than a feeder club and how we've been ripped off. I'm giving serious consideration to putting his head through my 'puter screen.
I was quite excited by the Inter tie-up at the time. At least a couple of youth players spent some time there. Valencia....did anything at all come out of this one? Liverpool: we are probably one of many clubs with such a deal. We did have a certain reserve goalkeeper on loan a while ago so Liverpool loans are not new. I hope something comes out of it but with no real expectations.
[cite]Posted By: Mortimerician[/cite] My attitude would always be - if you're prepared to add this to the deal, let's do it now, while we're round the table - if they won't do that then they probably don't intend to agree it in the future either.
Tend to agree with this. It's not always 100% that way from my experience because in big organisations other people have to make decision's some time but more often than not this is the case.
In all honesty whilst we are in Div3, if we are getting players on loan deemed not good enough for Liverpool, the chances are they will be good enough for us. They may not have a modern history (last 10 years) of producing players like Arsenal/United have but we have got some nice money for Shelvey with hopefully some good add ons as well as the possibility of getting some decent young players to the club so we may not have done as bad out of the deal as first thought.
I agree with the point Leroy made on the previous page regarding this being a sweetener because Liverpool have got Jonjo at a snip and they know it. The Inter deal was made in 1999/2000 when we had been relegated to the Championship and in truth was a lot of hot air as was the Valencia tie in. I will watch this potential Liverpool thing with interest. If we benefit reasonably then fair enough but I would not want us to be their feeder team. I have not given up hope that one day we can be back up there with them in the Premier League.
We need to remember that Shelvey is near the end of the line as a youngster who joined us whilst we were still in the Premier League. He is also an East London / Essex boy rather than South London / Kent. I'm not sure whether we still have an effective network in these areas now since we closed our Academy north of the River.
I understand that clubs cannot sign players Under 16 over an hours travel away from them. This tie up suits Liverpool but could mean we still compete with the Arsenal , Spurs and West Ham as well as Millwall and Orient in attracting top talent.
In terms of what we need , I'm afraid John jo probably was too good for us , A decent Scouser reject may suit our needs better in this Division they often send players to the likes of Accrington and Crewe .However , we hopefully will go up so the likes of Jay Spearing become a possibility.
I'm extremely disappointed about the timing but believe Jon jo and his family have been fair with Charlton and in the end both parties have done well , I wish we had actually seen Defoe in a Charlton shirt and one of the reasons I felt bitter about that was he never did.
One of my concerns is the effect this will have on the players on the fringe of the team, or expect to be next season, Wagstaff, Tuna,Ben Davisson,Alex Stavrinou, Solly,Clark etc etc..... There are currently over 30 first team players, and okay some may well go, released etc. If we go to the Championship I can only see a few of these above getting more than a handful of games, and in League 1 not much more, perhaps Wagstaff as a regular, so why do we need more Liverpool possibles/Loanees. And I am all for playing young players where possible!. I thought the wages bill had to be cut!
[cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite] so why do we need more Liverpool possibles/Loanees. And I am all for playing young players where possible!. I thought the wages bill had to be cut!
It does but as AFKA said we don't know the details of the deal and those COULD be no wages/no loan fees which would make a Liverpool player cheaper than a Mooney or A Sodje or K Reid for example. But that is a big COULD as we don't even have a deal. Yet.
[cite]Posted By: Richard J[/cite] I'm not sure whether we still have an effective network in these areas now since we closed our Academy north of the River.
Of the 11 players signed on schoolboy terms this summer 3 or 4 were from north/east London/Essex from memory.
Of course they would have linked up with the Academy some years ago so can't say if there are still kids coming from over the water now at a younger age but Uncle mentioned someone a few days ago.
[quote][cite]Posted By: ken from bexley[/cite]There are currently over 30 first team players, and okay some may well go, released etc. If we go to the Championship I can only see a few of these above getting more than a handful of games, and in League 1 not much more, perhaps Wagstaff as a regular, so why do we need more Liverpool possibles/Loanees. And I am all for playing young players where possible!. I thought the wages bill had to be cut![/quote]
The youngsters who've just been handed their 1st Pro contract won't be costing the club much at all, including slightly older young Pro's like Mambo, Stav etc. Waggy and Solly with some 1st team experience will still be on contracts worth much less than established players.
A fair number of players are out of contract at the end of the season including Lloyd Sam, as his deal arranged by Dowie in Prem days expires. Spring, Burton, Dailly, Randolph, McKenzie, Basey, Dickson, Sinclair, Sam Sodje, plus a couple of young Pro's are all out of contract.
And there's a whole raft of loan players, most who've since fitted into the club very well - so some may be offered contracts in the summer?
Then we have the very well paid Moo2 and McLeod plus Fleetwood surplus to requirements - but each still with 1 more year to run ....... this is our achilles heel financially = literally money down the drain unless they can be loaned out with their wages fully covered (unlikely).
Semedo, Racon, Youga, Bailey all gained Pardew contracts plus Richardson - so no doubt they are amongst the better paid, and will be vulnerable to being sold.
I realise you acknowledge some are likely to go in the summer, so we're unlikely to run with "over 30 first team players" next season. But personally I can see us running with less than 20 established Pro's, a handful of inexperienced kids, and patched up with a few loans as required.
If we play too many of our own raw youngsters, we could be forced to use players who are not quite ready. But of course, it could all depend in which division we play next season.
It may be that 2 or 3 Liverpool young Pros, while lacking in experience themselves, may nevertheless bring a little necessary quality on the ball - in otherwords, providing an overall better class of player at a price we can actually afford.
Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
....and i presume the plastic will be goin to the Chelsea game?
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
....and i presume the plastic will be goin to the Chelsea game?
Nope, he's never been to Anfield let alone Liverpool and readily admits he's an armchair fan.
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
Exactly...but the bloke is as thick as two short planks. All I get is we're Premier league class this and a bigger club that blah blah. No point trying to talk football to him. Ho-hum.
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
Exactly...but the bloke is as thick as two short planks. All I get is we're Premier league class this and a bigger club that blah blah. No point trying to talk football to him. Ho-hum.
So he's an armchair but still gives it. The worst kind they are. Only thing for it is a slap mate!
Just gloat at the mug when Brazil or whoever lift the world cup and rib him for supporting England then watch as his bemused soulless face tries to comprehend what you mean.
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
Exactly...but the bloke is as thick as two short planks. All I get is we're Premier league class this and a bigger club that blah blah. No point trying to talk football to him. Ho-hum.
Tell him you also support Inter Milan and see what he says. You can quite easily 'support' them as much he does Liverpool.
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
....and i presume the plastic will be goin to the Chelsea game?
Nope, he's never been to Anfield let alone Liverpool and readily admits he's an armchair fan.
[cite]Posted By: Sideways[/cite]Am getting now end of stick from this scouse fella at work on this very subject. Am not rising to the bait but am finding it increasingly hard to stay professional. Grrrrrrrrrr :-(
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
Exactly...but the bloke is as thick as two short planks. All I get is we're Premier league class this and a bigger club that blah blah. No point trying to talk football to him. Ho-hum.
Suffice to stay he's now shut up after me having a 'quite' word. What took the biscuit was he wasn't aware of Liverpool's connection with Wednesday. Absolutely clueless. Mention the words 'disaster' and 'April '89'. He looked at my blankely. Not even an armchair fan. Just a glory seeking muppet. I expect to see him in Chelski colours soon. *Sigh*
Comments
A 17 or 18 year old moving to London from Liverpool throws up all kinds of non-football related issues, although maybe not as bad as moving in the opposite direction (look out, Jonjo). To expect a young player to perform consistently well at a decent level under those circumstances is optimistic in the extreme. Lads who do not have to relocate, or who know the London area already, would be a better bet, in my view.
As AFKA has said, being a feeder club for anyone feels horrible, but if we can eventually pick up players permanently who are not quite good enough for the very top tier of the Premier League, then that will suit me fine. After all, it should be the natural consequence of the vast influx of overseas players into the top flight ... the lads who would have made it in previous years should now be plying their trade a division or two lower ... which is where we are.
In summary, feeder club? No thanks. Beneficiary of overspill from the top clubs? Yes please.
These young lads aren't necessarily from Up North originally though - like wise Chelsea's boys aren't all from West London. Arsenal's youth aren't even all English. Michael Carrick is a Geordie and he came through West Ham's system.
I don't see we have much to fear here. Doesn;t sound like Liverpool get first option or anything and even if they do surely that would be in the circumstance we decided to sell, not that we're obliged to let them have which ever youngsters they choose, whenever they want them.
As long as we don't end up with five 16 year olds on loan all with clauses saying they must play then this sort of thing would be fine. As AFKA says, no harm in opening a few avenues for us to get a head start on cheap loans and signings as whatever division we're in next year we're going to having to make the very most of what little money we have to spend.
What if Liverpool were to send one or two of their coaches down (perhaps on an exchange basis) to our Academy to teach the 15 to 17 year olds their ways. The equivalents of the likes of Shelvey could then "sold" by us to our partners and in return, we would get two or three of their lesser 18 to 21 year olds on loan or even on a "part exchange" deal.
Also the players they send us I imagine will more likely be 18-20 year olds (maybe more, as said Spearing is 21, they probably have kept others that age). Not a huge difference, but I doubt we'll get 17 year olds just after they've turned pro. More likely players with reserve team experience, maybe the odd cup game for Liverpool.
Good point Exiled as well, that Sterling is one example, they signed him from QPR this season.
He's right though!
So has no pre-season friendly been mentioned?
Tend to agree with this. It's not always 100% that way from my experience because in big organisations other people have to make decision's some time but more often than not this is the case.
I understand that clubs cannot sign players Under 16 over an hours travel away from them. This tie up suits Liverpool but could mean we still compete with the Arsenal , Spurs and West Ham as well as Millwall and Orient in attracting top talent.
In terms of what we need , I'm afraid John jo probably was too good for us , A decent Scouser reject may suit our needs better in this Division they often send players to the likes of Accrington and Crewe .However , we hopefully will go up so the likes of Jay Spearing become a possibility.
I'm extremely disappointed about the timing but believe Jon jo and his family have been fair with Charlton and in the end both parties have done well , I wish we had actually seen Defoe in a Charlton shirt and one of the reasons I felt bitter about that was he never did.
There are currently over 30 first team players, and okay some may well go, released etc. If we go to the Championship I can only see a few of these above getting more than a handful of games, and in League 1 not much more, perhaps Wagstaff as a regular, so why do we need more Liverpool possibles/Loanees. And I am all for playing young players where possible!. I thought the wages bill had to be cut!
It does but as AFKA said we don't know the details of the deal and those COULD be no wages/no loan fees which would make a Liverpool player cheaper than a Mooney or A Sodje or K Reid for example. But that is a big COULD as we don't even have a deal. Yet.
Of the 11 players signed on schoolboy terms this summer 3 or 4 were from north/east London/Essex from memory.
Of course they would have linked up with the Academy some years ago so can't say if there are still kids coming from over the water now at a younger age but Uncle mentioned someone a few days ago.
The youngsters who've just been handed their 1st Pro contract won't be costing the club much at all, including slightly older young Pro's like Mambo, Stav etc.
Waggy and Solly with some 1st team experience will still be on contracts worth much less than established players.
A fair number of players are out of contract at the end of the season including Lloyd Sam, as his deal arranged by Dowie in Prem days expires. Spring, Burton, Dailly, Randolph, McKenzie, Basey, Dickson, Sinclair, Sam Sodje, plus a couple of young Pro's are all out of contract.
And there's a whole raft of loan players, most who've since fitted into the club very well - so some may be offered contracts in the summer?
Then we have the very well paid Moo2 and McLeod plus Fleetwood surplus to requirements - but each still with 1 more year to run ....... this is our achilles heel financially = literally money down the drain unless they can be loaned out with their wages fully covered (unlikely).
Semedo, Racon, Youga, Bailey all gained Pardew contracts plus Richardson - so no doubt they are amongst the better paid, and will be vulnerable to being sold.
I realise you acknowledge some are likely to go in the summer, so we're unlikely to run with "over 30 first team players" next season. But personally I can see us running with less than 20 established Pro's, a handful of inexperienced kids, and patched up with a few loans as required.
If we play too many of our own raw youngsters, we could be forced to use players who are not quite ready.
But of course, it could all depend in which division we play next season.
It may be that 2 or 3 Liverpool young Pros, while lacking in experience themselves, may nevertheless bring a little necessary quality on the ball - in otherwords, providing an overall better class of player at a price we can actually afford.
aww bless
What has he got to laugh about after last night?
....and i presume the plastic will be goin to the Chelsea game?
Nope, he's never been to Anfield let alone Liverpool and readily admits he's an armchair fan.
Exactly...but the bloke is as thick as two short planks. All I get is we're Premier league class this and a bigger club that blah blah. No point trying to talk football to him. Ho-hum.
So he's an armchair but still gives it. The worst kind they are. Only thing for it is a slap mate!
In the mean time anyone want his mobile number!!! ;-)
Tell him you also support Inter Milan and see what he says. You can quite easily 'support' them as much he does Liverpool.
stick one on him
He's never been to Liverpool? LOL
A grade A cock in other words?
Suffice to stay he's now shut up after me having a 'quite' word. What took the biscuit was he wasn't aware of Liverpool's connection with Wednesday. Absolutely clueless. Mention the words 'disaster' and 'April '89'. He looked at my blankely. Not even an armchair fan. Just a glory seeking muppet. I expect to see him in Chelski colours soon. *Sigh*
Anyways.....COYR!