Even worse was not having a succesion plan even when it was obvious for a few seasons that Curbs would go........if you run a company like that it would bo bust ..............mmmmmmmmmmmm
Who's to say we wouldn't have been relegated under Curbs?
It was his idea to buy in the high wage stars, he who fell out with some of them, the rot started under him, starting pretty much after Parkers departure
However at some stage someone should have said enough is enough before the debt mountain got to where it has, that to me what the biggest mistake - but its easily said in hindsight.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Schoham:"Surely he didn't make all the decisions on his own though? Might have made many final decisions, but it's not like he appointed Dowie/Reed while the rest of the board disagreed. ". Obviously Murray was advised, by the people he appointed, so as I said harshly he had the ultimate veto. After all we are told it was Murray who was the protaganist in letting Curbs go in the first place right......or at east that was my reading of the situation. As convienant as it would be to blame Dowie, Parker, Andy Reid for going...... and so forth if we are looking for a fall guy then the Chairman has to take the responsibility IMO.
I have never doubted Richard's sincerity, or his great financial backing of the club, or his passion for Charlton,
It was a 'collective responsability' issue where the board take, or try to make the best decision, and are charged with the responsability of acting in the clubs/companies best interests.
With the plaudits comes the responsability, with failure comes accountability and as the head of any organisation they have to be acknowledged as the architect of the decisions made, in the same way the manager picks the team, and tactics, except of course in the recent case of QPR when Briatore did that......
As others have stated, a futile waste of time trying to blame 'someone'
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]that crap squad curbs left us with got 47 points and a point per game from the last 10 and got to the 1/4 of the fa cup(is that a cup run) with curbs as manager ... FACTS not an opinion just FACTS ...
For a premier league club our cup record in both cups was poor IMHO and yes I did expect or at least hope for more. It's not as if the draws we got were unhelpful.
But Curbs was a great manager for us (I said so then and defended him against theminorityof Charlton fans who wanted him gone) and his will be the benchmark that all subsequent Charlton managers and teams will be judged against. (Jimmy South Stand's achievements were greater but in black and white so don't seem to count to many).
But in the same way the Murray lead board's achievements (the ground, the 8 years in the prem, the sense of progress year on year, the "well run club") will also be the benchmark against which all future boards will be judged.
The irony, which will not be lost on Richard or any other other board members, is that it is those standards which the current board and team are nowhere near achieving which make our current position even more painful.
They say that to have loved and lost is better to have never loved at all but right now it hurts.
But then again, we are still third : - )
Henry,
Jimmy Southstand was a great manager and it is an undisputed fact that he achieved Charlton's highest positions in the top tier of English football 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.
However when you compare the environments under which Seed and Curbishley operated I would not necessarily agree that Seed's achievements were greater than Curbishley's 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th.
Seed operated at a time when there was a maximum wage for players and thus little incentive for players to move in order to earn more once on that maximum wage. There were no European competitions to aspire to or television companies pumping vast sums of money to selected clubs to artificially distort the "playing field" so the English division 1 was the pinnacle in Seed's time. Furthermore "Bosmans" were unheard of which meant that a contract was a contract and it was easier for clubs to keep players they wanted.
Curbishley had all of those problems Seed did not plus ground renovations to contend with.
In my opinion the two should be regarded as equals.
Curbs only managed one less game then Jimmy Seed. I think Curbs reached great heights for CAFC and comparable to the success Seed had. Its absolutely crazy to blame Curbs on our current position!!!
Curbs was telling the board he needed a footballing break, but he would have taken the England job in a heartbeat had he been offered. It was really a tough situation because he wanted to out on good terms with Charlton because he really does have a lot of heart for the club.
But that Len is your OPINION and Ooh Aah insists on FACTs only so 2nd beats 7th and two cup finals beats 3 quarter finals. FACT : - )
Being serious I take your points on the different nature of football and the hurdles faced but by that thinking Lennie had it much worse and so achieved, comparatively, more.
However I stand by Jimmy South Stand being the greater of two great managers as it was he who first proved that Charlton could be a top flight club. He took us from the lowest division to the highest and we never dropped out of that division while he was there. We also took a long, long time to get back after he had gone so proving (as did Curbs) just what an achievement that was.
Plus there is no Alan Curbishley Stand at the Valley.
I certainly wouldn't seek to diminish Lennie Lawrence's magnificent achievement in keeping us in division 1 for four seasons playing away from home in anyway. However he also did not have the lure of European football to contend with because of the Heysel ban and Sky and Bosman hadn't arrived either. That meant that having achieved the miracle of reaching division 1 he could keep his players although I know Johnny H later went to pay the rent when finances declined still further.
I've said many times that it is hard to put a fag paper between Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley as "greatest ever" Charlton manager but, yes in my opinion, Curbishley shades it for me because of the greater external pressures he had to contend with compared to the other two.
To realise how far we have fallen is to understand that not so long ago we had a manager who was on the front pages of the red tops being touted and having secret talks and furtive photographs linking him with the England job. As a long standing fan that made me pretty proud to be associated with Charlton and I don't reckon thats going to happen again in my lifetime. After standing at the Toolbox last Saturday watching that abject pile of cack it becomes plainly obvious that whoever trains/coaches/nurtures and then picks the team and sends them across that white line after a rallying team talk is to blame. But therein lies the problem that ultimately someone chooses the manager and four have been chosen since Alan North Stand departed.
There is no way Charlton would have got back to The Valley without the intervention of Richard Murray and Martin Simons. Murray unpicked the financial mess left behind by Mike Norris in 1991 and Simons guaranteed the loan that enabled the club to acquire The Valley. It's quite true that Roger Alwen and Norris started the process, but they did not have the wherewithal to carry it through.
The board for not giving Curbs the money they gave Dowie to spend in the transfer market and also for not employing Billy Davies, Roy Hodgson or Dave Jones.
I blame myself too 'cos BDL blames me and I am easily convinced that it is indeed my fault - not the management, players or board who are in a position to change things around!
Irony is a lost form of banter to some - spose he thinks its something his missus does to his shirts!
If you could see yourself now, baby
It's not my fault
You used to be so in control
You're going to roll right over this one
Just roll me over, let me go
You're laying blame
Take this as no, no, no
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
If you could see yourself now baby,
The tables have turned
The whole world hinges on your swings
Your secret life of indiscreet discretions
I'd turn the screw and leave the screen,
Don't point your finger,
You know that's not my thing
You came to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go, now
You've got a little worry,
I know it all too well,
I've got your number,
But so does every kiss-and-tell
Who dares to cross your threshold,
Or happens on your way,
Stop laying blame
You know that's not my thing
You know that's not my thing,
You came to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
You kiss on me, tug on me, rub on me, jump on me,
You bang on me, beat on me, hit on me, let go on me,
You let go on me
so jimmy....let's get this straight...are you saying that Berry/Buck/Mills and Stipe are to blame?
I assume you mean Les Berry/Buck Ryan(who scored the winner in the 7-6 Huddersfield win at The Valley) and Danny Mills? Though I've not heard of a player called Stipe....might have been before my time? What exactly was it that they all did (at various times I assume), to have brought the club to it's knees? Most unfair if you ask me.
What I'm saying is that no individual is to blame. It is an interwoven collection of mistakes from various people. And as Stipe says we've got to 'let it go.'
Having said that, I hate Dowie and hope Hull get relegated ;-
No one is to blame for this season. We've got a decent side for the level we are playing and have just forgotten the realities of lower league football. It's been said before (and usually raises groans) but people will look back and realise just what Curbs done (if they haven't already).
[cite]Posted By: thai malaysia addick[/cite]No one is to blame for this season. We've got a decent side for the level we are playing and have just forgotten the realities of lower league football. It's been said before (and usually raises groans) but people will look back and realise just what Curbs done (if they haven't already).
Hopefully in the next few years we're not looking back at this season and realising it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Many were predicting mid table or even a relegation battle with Parky in charge.
What makes this thread's question particularly painful is that the answer is the chairman and his board. The very same people that were behind the tremendous rise have also presided over the dramatic fall.
We can point fingers at Dowie and Pardew, and to a lesser extend Parky and even Les Reed if you want, but the people that put them in charge, allowed them to spend, oversaw the business plan, and then had nothing left, are the ones most accountable. And they know it.
[cite]Posted By: American_Addick[/cite]What makes this thread's question particularly painful is that the answer is the chairman and his board. The very same people that were behind the tremendous rise have also presided over the dramatic fall.
We can point fingers at Dowie and Pardew, and to a lesser extend Parky and even Les Reed if you want, but the people that put them in charge, allowed them to spend, oversaw the business plan, and then had nothing left, are the ones most accountable. And they know it.
Have to agree with that view from across the Atlantic. Whatever happens on the field on a Sat afternoon, football is like any business - i.e. it's all about leadership from the top.
And the same people who built us up with their sharp decisions and became heroes are exactly the same people who brought us so low when they lost their touch and started making the wrong calls.
Just look at Parky's post match interview today. He's pointing out that he's had to build a team with less money than the likes of Millwall and Colchester.
And the fault for that doesn't like with hapless Parky and the mediocre players he has to work with; it lies at the very top of the club. And as American Addick sagely notes, those responsible know it,too.
Comments
It was his idea to buy in the high wage stars, he who fell out with some of them, the rot started under him, starting pretty much after Parkers departure
However at some stage someone should have said enough is enough before the debt mountain got to where it has, that to me what the biggest mistake - but its easily said in hindsight.
Hard to disagree.
Things were better when it was Netaddicks that's for sure
Obviously Murray was advised, by the people he appointed, so as I said harshly he had the ultimate veto.
After all we are told it was Murray who was the protaganist in letting Curbs go in the first place right......or at east that was my reading of the situation.
As convienant as it would be to blame Dowie, Parker, Andy Reid for going...... and so forth if we are looking for a fall guy then the Chairman has to take the responsibility IMO.
I have never doubted Richard's sincerity, or his great financial backing of the club, or his passion for Charlton,
It was a 'collective responsability' issue where the board take, or try to make the best decision, and are charged with the responsability of acting in the clubs/companies best interests.
With the plaudits comes the responsability, with failure comes accountability and as the head of any organisation they have to be acknowledged as the architect of the decisions made, in the same way the manager picks the team, and tactics, except of course in the recent case of QPR when Briatore did that......
As others have stated, a futile waste of time trying to blame 'someone'
Henry,
Jimmy Southstand was a great manager and it is an undisputed fact that he achieved Charlton's highest positions in the top tier of English football 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th.
However when you compare the environments under which Seed and Curbishley operated I would not necessarily agree that Seed's achievements were greater than Curbishley's 7th, 9th, 11th and 12th.
Seed operated at a time when there was a maximum wage for players and thus little incentive for players to move in order to earn more once on that maximum wage. There were no European competitions to aspire to or television companies pumping vast sums of money to selected clubs to artificially distort the "playing field" so the English division 1 was the pinnacle in Seed's time. Furthermore "Bosmans" were unheard of which meant that a contract was a contract and it was easier for clubs to keep players they wanted.
Curbishley had all of those problems Seed did not plus ground renovations to contend with.
In my opinion the two should be regarded as equals.
Curbs only managed one less game then Jimmy Seed. I think Curbs reached great heights for CAFC and comparable to the success Seed had. Its absolutely crazy to blame Curbs on our current position!!!
Curbs was telling the board he needed a footballing break, but he would have taken the England job in a heartbeat had he been offered. It was really a tough situation because he wanted to out on good terms with Charlton because he really does have a lot of heart for the club.
Being serious I take your points on the different nature of football and the hurdles faced but by that thinking Lennie had it much worse and so achieved, comparatively, more.
However I stand by Jimmy South Stand being the greater of two great managers as it was he who first proved that Charlton could be a top flight club. He took us from the lowest division to the highest and we never dropped out of that division while he was there. We also took a long, long time to get back after he had gone so proving (as did Curbs) just what an achievement that was.
Plus there is no Alan Curbishley Stand at the Valley.
Maybe he wasn't? Maybe it was time for Curbs to go.
It certainly wasnt time for that ugly twat Dowie to take his place, that's for sure.
I've said many times that it is hard to put a fag paper between Seed, Lawrence and Curbishley as "greatest ever" Charlton manager but, yes in my opinion, Curbishley shades it for me because of the greater external pressures he had to contend with compared to the other two.
A Charlton Life badge goes to the person who gets this right.
didnt see this post when i wrote this and really didnt expect to see anyone else say this.
bougherra for getting done up like a kipper by mcfadden
a charlton life badge each then!
Also Dowie and Pardew.
Irony is a lost form of banter to some - spose he thinks its something his missus does to his shirts!
IT WOZ CORY GIBBS WOT DUN IT...
Him and all you south Londoners trying to deny that CAFC is a Kentish club!
Right. Now off to the BIG KENTISH DERBY!!!
Surely what's important now is who is going to step up to the plate to get us out of this mess.
It's not my fault
You used to be so in control
You're going to roll right over this one
Just roll me over, let me go
You're laying blame
Take this as no, no, no
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
If you could see yourself now baby,
The tables have turned
The whole world hinges on your swings
Your secret life of indiscreet discretions
I'd turn the screw and leave the screen,
Don't point your finger,
You know that's not my thing
You came to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go, now
You've got a little worry,
I know it all too well,
I've got your number,
But so does every kiss-and-tell
Who dares to cross your threshold,
Or happens on your way,
Stop laying blame
You know that's not my thing
You know that's not my thing,
You came to bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
Blame, blame, blame
You bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,
It's not my thing so let it go
You kiss on me, tug on me, rub on me, jump on me,
You bang on me, beat on me, hit on me, let go on me,
You let go on me
(Berry/Buck/Mills/Stipe)
Bang And Blame
I assume you mean Les Berry/Buck Ryan(who scored the winner in the 7-6 Huddersfield win at The Valley) and Danny Mills? Though I've not heard of a player called Stipe....might have been before my time?
What exactly was it that they all did (at various times I assume), to have brought the club to it's knees?
Most unfair if you ask me.
Having said that, I hate Dowie and hope Hull get relegated ;-
We can point fingers at Dowie and Pardew, and to a lesser extend Parky and even Les Reed if you want, but the people that put them in charge, allowed them to spend, oversaw the business plan, and then had nothing left, are the ones most accountable. And they know it.
Have to agree with that view from across the Atlantic. Whatever happens on the field on a Sat afternoon, football is like any business - i.e. it's all about leadership from the top.
And the same people who built us up with their sharp decisions and became heroes are exactly the same people who brought us so low when they lost their touch and started making the wrong calls.
Just look at Parky's post match interview today. He's pointing out that he's had to build a team with less money than the likes of Millwall and Colchester.
And the fault for that doesn't like with hapless Parky and the mediocre players he has to work with; it lies at the very top of the club. And as American Addick sagely notes, those responsible know it,too.