[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]take your point henners but schoolboy to pro vs paying current market price is a little different in terms of pillaging
Maybe from our point of view it is. I wonder how Dulwich fans would see it?
I'm sure West Ham fans would tell us to stop moaning and holding Jon Jo back and anyway you got decent money for him.
Just admit it Henners on this one u are wrong..
:P
Err, no. Going to have to have more of an case than a : P to win an argument.
[cite]Posted By: BBClaus[/cite]
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]
If Chris Dickson turns out to be a great goal scorer in the CCC that some predict he will have been a steal from Dulwich at £50k. We were happy to take advantage of our vastly better finances and prospects to lure Chris here and other clubs will try to do the same with Jon Jo. Tis the way of the world and always has been. All that changes is that Charlton move up and down the food chain.
It's not the same situation. The difference is we cannot stop jonjo joining any club that wants him. Dulwich could have turned down our bid and continued to turn down bids until his contract is up. Whether it is advisable to keep a player against is not the point.
They had a contract for Dicko which gave them bargaining power. We have no power whatsoever. If Jonjo signs and leaves in the summer then fine, because we will have had the power to get an acceptable transfer fee. That's why this is such a big issue, not whether we get to see him play for us or not.
Not the same situation but similar. We will still get payment for Jon Jo (thanks to Charlton forcing the rules to be changed post Defoe). When Charlton offered Dickson a chance to play pro he was going to leave regardless of what Dulwich said. All they could do was get the most money available and given some people's views on how great he is and that Fleetwood went for much more they might think they were robbed.
I'll be gutted if Shelvey goes before signing a pro-contract with us and it will be a big loss on the playing side and financially.
However it hasn't happened yet so not going to get too worked up about it.
Fleetwood had previously played and done something at professional level, i guess that explains the price difference.
You're right that dickson was inevitably going to go to a league club but they still had the advantage of having a contract which gave them bargaining power. Whichever club comes in for Jonjo will have all the power in any negotiations and at a tribunal because there is a precedenct of clubs being (imo serioulsy) under-compensated, just like Bostock.
As you say it hasn't happened and here's hoping it doesn't.
[cite]Posted By: Curbey[/cite]Do people honestly think that he will learn his trade better training and playing reserves for West Ham or being an integral part of a League One/ Championship Team, nothing outweighs the experience gained from first team football played at any level.This boy is good enough to play at the highest level possible whether he does it in the next 3 years of 5 years wont make that much difference.If you look at West Ham midfield it looks pretty settled Behrani, Parker, Noble, Collinson and Dyer when fit they all well ahead of him in the pecking order if they want him know they will still want him after 2/3 years when he has 100/150 appearences under his belt and a player much closer to his potential.
Proportion of the international squad that have played at below Championship level? Think statistics prove that players actual experience of playing first team League One isn't actually a great preparation - or all of them would be banging their managers' doors down demanding a move to Lincoln City.
I could only come up with Crouch (and Beckham and Defoe, but only on very short term loans). And what guarantee does he have with us: we have Racon, Semedo, Bailey, Holland, Spring, ZZ, Wright competing for those two places. Now you'd expect 2-3+ of them to go, but I'm not seeing any absolute guarantees. Even if you're of the opinion that he's the best of that bunch then you'd have to admit that managers don't always pick their best sides.
Henry - I recall the hoo-ha after Defoe (and Samuel where we actually did much worse): but how did we force the rules to be changed? Surely the rule was there then - just the tribunals - particularly the Samuel one - just made derisory awards. Thingshave moved on - their now just insulting, but I wasn't aware of the club's part in the switch. Are there markedly different rules in place or are tribunals just a bit less unfair?
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Henry - I recall the hoo-ha after Defoe (and Samuel where we actually did much worse): but how did we force the rules to be changed? Surely the rule was there then - just the tribunals - particularly the Samuel one - just made derisory awards. Thingshave moved on - their now just insulting, but I wasn't aware of the club's part in the switch. Are there markedly different rules in place or are tribunals just a bit less unfair?
We lost Samuel before Defoe. We got nothing and didn't make a fuss. Just accepted it
The next year West Ham took Defoe, as they were allowed to do under the rules, but offered no compensation. Terry Brown's view was "it's a jungle out there" (I don't think he then said "sometimes I wonder how I keep from going under" but never mind).
Charlton made a fuss, complained at the unfairness and got £1.65m plus a little bit more every time he moved (we even got about £1.50 when he went from Spurs to Pompey. That set a precedent and the current rules were put in place to avoid similar situations. Tribunals existed but didn't cover players without contracts.
[cite]Posted By: BBClaus[/cite]Fleetwood had previously played and done something at professional level, i guess that explains the price difference.
You're right that dickson was inevitably going to go to a league club but they still had the advantage of having a contract which gave them bargaining power. Whichever club comes in for Jonjo will have all the power in any negotiations and at a tribunal because there is a precedenct of clubs being (imo serioulsy) under-compensated, just like Bostock.
As you say it hasn't happened and here's hoping it doesn't.
Quite so. I was making the point that boards and fans of the buying club often think it's a fair deal (ie Spurs and Bostock) and fans and boards of a selling club don't (Ie Palace and Bostock).
The Japanese had a "pendulum system" in wages negations which I think could work well. Both sides made an offer of say £10 a hour and £15 a hour. The tribunial couldn't then say "OK, let's make it £12.50 they had to go with the offer they felt was the fairest. This stopped either side asking for very high or very low offers and being more likely to be either very close or make a deal beforehand.
This, I believe, would be a better way of settling tribunals. If Spurs want Bostock they make an offer and Palace give their price. If Palace say he's worth £10m the tribunal will laugh at them and agree Spurs offer. But Spurs can't offer £100k as Palace might have said £3.5m and the tribunal could see that as fairer. Both sides have an incentive to make a reasonable offer and to negotiate beforehand so as not to lose out.
Could work.
Still think Jon Jo will sign for Charlton on 27th Feb and the news will be on the OS first (as always!)
[cite]Posted By: supaclive[/cite]I think Uncle's silence here may be saying something .... or maybe he is just away -
Uncle is moving house and hasnt got the internet setup no conspiracy
NLA, can you not let facts get in the way of a negative conspiracy theory.
Don't you know that's not how it's done.
The real story was that NLA was using his works van to take Shelvey's signing on fee his house in Romford when it was robbed by members of the West Ham Academy staff. FACT : - )
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Proportion of the international squad that have played at below Championship level? Think statistics prove that players actual experience of playing first team League One isn't actually a great preparation - or all of them would be banging their managers' doors down demanding a move to Lincoln City.
Below championship level theres not many that come to mind.But
Heskey
G.Johnson
Ashley Cole
Robert Green
David James
Phil Jagielka
Joelean Lescott
Matt Upson
Ashley Young
Michael Carrick
Carlton Cole
All played for teams at Championship level. A good example of what can be achieved in league 2 is Fabian Delph of Leeds playing reguarly this season has attracted a host of Premier League clubs inc. The top four whilst gaining good experience of playing first team football.Although it's a long shot we might still be in this league come the end of the season.
Henry, I thought we got something for Samuel (not much, 50k or so) and I think the tribunal system was in place for out of contract players (that's what it's main function, pre-Bosman), but get the point that the Defoe deal was a breaktrhough in moving us to a fairer value.
Really like the pendulum idea. I remember Celtic pushing for this when Man U nicked McClair off them for buttons way back when. It completely forces the party to make realistic demands rather than what is in place now. That said with a tribunal system like the one that allowed Bostock to move for around a third of what the acquiring club had already bid, I'm not sure if anything will help
Just been thinking again. Would you choose to join the Hammers at this stage? Haven't they delayed filing their accounts until March so they'll know the outcome of Gudmarsson's Hansa 'troubles', which, if the financial bods are right, could spell big trouble. Plus the Blades still have their compo to work out. I think I'd want to wait and see what their finances looked like before I made any decisions.
[cite]Posted By: McLovin[/cite]Henry, I thought we got something for Samuel (not much, 50k or so) and I think the tribunal system was in place for out of contract players (that's what it's main function, pre-Bosman), but get the point that the Defoe deal was a breaktrhough in moving us to a fairer value.
Didn't think we did get anything for Jay Lloyd but it was a long long time ago.
[cite]Posted By: stilladdicted[/cite]Just been thinking again. Would you choose to join the Hammers at this stage? Haven't they delayed filing their accounts until March so they'll know the outcome of Gudmarsson's Hansa 'troubles', which, if the financial bods are right, could spell big trouble. Plus the Blades still have their compo to work out. I think I'd want to wait and see what their finances looked like before I made any decisions.
Maybe but imagine you are 16 keeper and a Charlton fan and you are on Gillingham's books.
Before you are 17 Charlton are sniffing around. Stay loyal to the Gills where you have grown up and you are on the edge of the first team or join a bigger club for more money, better facilities and the team you support. You won't get a look in at the first team for ages as Elliot and Randolph are in front of you.
What do you do?
If you are reading this Jon Jo the answer is stay with Charlton.
If there was a club I'd think he would have a good future at it would be Aston Villa, not that he's been linked with them.
O'Neill's doing a really good job, they've got money for when they need it, but still look to bring their best young players through. If they play 4-3-3 with two wingers and a striker, Shelvey fits perfectly in a 3 man midfield as the attacking one.
Look at Bostock, was playing for Spurs in the youth cup. Both of them have shown they are good enough to be playing at a higher level than that. If he stays here a bit longer he'll get more experience and the offers will still be there for him. No doubt if Parker stayed with us until the end of 03/04, we'd have finished the season better and clubs would have still been after him.
it might have been that way round i thought it was jonjo was released from west spam and we released the brother who knows jeesus uncle get a computer set up bud
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]it might have been that way round i thought it was jonjo was released from west spam and we released the brother who knows jeesus uncle get a computer set up bud
I've just had an email from a friend who's close to a couple of players at the club - obviously it wouldn't be right for me to reveal who, but let's just say that in my experience he's always been a reliable source.
I'd asked him what he knew about the Jonjo situation, and this is what he told me:
"Let me tell you he's not going anywhere unless the club want to cash in on him. He is contracted till he's 18 anyway not till he's 17 he wants to play for charlton for a while longer yet.
He is happy there but obviously would like to play more."
Anyway, I hope this settles some of the uncertainty for now - but whatever you think,
please don't shoot the messenger..!
Comments
Err, no. Going to have to have more of an case than a : P to win an argument.
Not the same situation but similar. We will still get payment for Jon Jo (thanks to Charlton forcing the rules to be changed post Defoe). When Charlton offered Dickson a chance to play pro he was going to leave regardless of what Dulwich said. All they could do was get the most money available and given some people's views on how great he is and that Fleetwood went for much more they might think they were robbed.
I'll be gutted if Shelvey goes before signing a pro-contract with us and it will be a big loss on the playing side and financially.
However it hasn't happened yet so not going to get too worked up about it.
You're right that dickson was inevitably going to go to a league club but they still had the advantage of having a contract which gave them bargaining power. Whichever club comes in for Jonjo will have all the power in any negotiations and at a tribunal because there is a precedenct of clubs being (imo serioulsy) under-compensated, just like Bostock.
As you say it hasn't happened and here's hoping it doesn't.
Proportion of the international squad that have played at below Championship level? Think statistics prove that players actual experience of playing first team League One isn't actually a great preparation - or all of them would be banging their managers' doors down demanding a move to Lincoln City.
I could only come up with Crouch (and Beckham and Defoe, but only on very short term loans). And what guarantee does he have with us: we have Racon, Semedo, Bailey, Holland, Spring, ZZ, Wright competing for those two places. Now you'd expect 2-3+ of them to go, but I'm not seeing any absolute guarantees. Even if you're of the opinion that he's the best of that bunch then you'd have to admit that managers don't always pick their best sides.
Uncle is moving house and hasnt got the internet setup no conspiracy
We lost Samuel before Defoe. We got nothing and didn't make a fuss. Just accepted it
The next year West Ham took Defoe, as they were allowed to do under the rules, but offered no compensation. Terry Brown's view was "it's a jungle out there" (I don't think he then said "sometimes I wonder how I keep from going under" but never mind).
Charlton made a fuss, complained at the unfairness and got £1.65m plus a little bit more every time he moved (we even got about £1.50 when he went from Spurs to Pompey. That set a precedent and the current rules were put in place to avoid similar situations. Tribunals existed but didn't cover players without contracts.
Quite so. I was making the point that boards and fans of the buying club often think it's a fair deal (ie Spurs and Bostock) and fans and boards of a selling club don't (Ie Palace and Bostock).
The Japanese had a "pendulum system" in wages negations which I think could work well. Both sides made an offer of say £10 a hour and £15 a hour. The tribunial couldn't then say "OK, let's make it £12.50 they had to go with the offer they felt was the fairest. This stopped either side asking for very high or very low offers and being more likely to be either very close or make a deal beforehand.
This, I believe, would be a better way of settling tribunals. If Spurs want Bostock they make an offer and Palace give their price. If Palace say he's worth £10m the tribunal will laugh at them and agree Spurs offer. But Spurs can't offer £100k as Palace might have said £3.5m and the tribunal could see that as fairer. Both sides have an incentive to make a reasonable offer and to negotiate beforehand so as not to lose out.
Could work.
Still think Jon Jo will sign for Charlton on 27th Feb and the news will be on the OS first (as always!)
NLA, can you not let facts get in the way of a negative conspiracy theory.
Don't you know that's not how it's done.
The real story was that NLA was using his works van to take Shelvey's signing on fee his house in Romford when it was robbed by members of the West Ham Academy staff. FACT : - )
It's all coming together now : - )
Perhaps West Ham paid for his new house? ;-)
Below championship level theres not many that come to mind.But
Heskey
G.Johnson
Ashley Cole
Robert Green
David James
Phil Jagielka
Joelean Lescott
Matt Upson
Ashley Young
Michael Carrick
Carlton Cole
All played for teams at Championship level. A good example of what can be achieved in league 2 is Fabian Delph of Leeds playing reguarly this season has attracted a host of Premier League clubs inc. The top four whilst gaining good experience of playing first team football.Although it's a long shot we might still be in this league come the end of the season.
Well bleedin phone him and find out what's goin' on then.
Really like the pendulum idea. I remember Celtic pushing for this when Man U nicked McClair off them for buttons way back when. It completely forces the party to make realistic demands rather than what is in place now. That said with a tribunal system like the one that allowed Bostock to move for around a third of what the acquiring club had already bid, I'm not sure if anything will help
Didn't think we did get anything for Jay Lloyd but it was a long long time ago.
Maybe but imagine you are 16 keeper and a Charlton fan and you are on Gillingham's books.
Before you are 17 Charlton are sniffing around. Stay loyal to the Gills where you have grown up and you are on the edge of the first team or join a bigger club for more money, better facilities and the team you support. You won't get a look in at the first team for ages as Elliot and Randolph are in front of you.
What do you do?
If you are reading this Jon Jo the answer is stay with Charlton.
O'Neill's doing a really good job, they've got money for when they need it, but still look to bring their best young players through. If they play 4-3-3 with two wingers and a striker, Shelvey fits perfectly in a 3 man midfield as the attacking one.
Look at Bostock, was playing for Spurs in the youth cup. Both of them have shown they are good enough to be playing at a higher level than that. If he stays here a bit longer he'll get more experience and the offers will still be there for him. No doubt if Parker stayed with us until the end of 03/04, we'd have finished the season better and clubs would have still been after him.
I would imagine allot of those reasons are still in place now.
I personally dont think West Ham would be a good move for him, there would be bigger and better run clubs interested in him.
I
LMAO !
i honestly cant remember what way round he told me, what i do know he said is the the brother was a very handy footballer as a youth player.
(al when you do log on bud put it in order for us)
Is this assertion what you THINK might happen or what you KNOW for certain?
I'd asked him what he knew about the Jonjo situation, and this is what he told me:
"Let me tell you he's not going anywhere unless the club want to cash in on him. He is contracted till he's 18 anyway not till he's 17 he wants to play for charlton for a while longer yet.
He is happy there but obviously would like to play more."
Anyway, I hope this settles some of the uncertainty for now - but whatever you think,
please don't shoot the messenger..!