[cite]Posted By: cfgs[/cite]err Moots was got injured pretty early in that Stoke game
No he wasn't, he got injured after 56 minutes and taken off immediately.
In the time he was on the pitch Liam Lawrence, a decent but not outstanding winger, beat him on the outside for fun on plenty of occasions and we were very lucky to be 1-0 up.
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]With respect, OA, he is most definitely a Muslim and he has a Muslim name.
(To the tune of 'My Old Man's a Dustman')
Oh Yassin is a Muslim,
He's got a Muslim name,
And when Parky says "please defend",
He says that's not my game!
But when he comes off the pitch.
You can say he ran and ran,
But rather than head down the pub,
He just reads his Qu'ran!
Nice rhyming on Qu'ran. You could have got ham in there, too.
[cite]Posted By: cfgs[/cite]err Moots was got injured pretty early in that Stoke game
About 57 mins, if I remember.
It was 0-0, Moots had gone on a buccaneering run down the line, played a 1-2 and on receiving the ball cynically scythed down 20 yards out. Moots struggled off, Andy Reid took a delightful freekick that deflected handily off Fortune's arse - and we were in front.
Paddy McCarthorse then had his mare as Ricardo Fuller ran rings round him and we lost 2-1.
[cite]Posted By: cfgs[/cite]err Moots was got injured pretty early in that Stoke game
About 57 mins, if I remember.
It was 0-0, Moots had gone on a buccaneering run down the line, played a 1-2 and on receiving the ball cynically scythed down 20 yards out. Moots struggled off, Andy Reid took a delightful freekick that deflected handily off Fortune's arse - and we were in front.
Paddy McCarthorse then had his mare as Ricardo Fuller ran rings round him and we lost 2-1.
Yet another player splitting the fans opinions. Oh how I long for just one player, again, that we can all agree is mustard!
I was pondering this last night whilst watching Everton vs 'pool. Was thinking to myself, what a very good player Jagielka has become. He seems to have been around for ages and although he always looked decent at Sheff U you'd have thought he'd have got his chance of a big move a while ago if he was going to make it. It made me think if we've been far too quick to judge (as fans) and drop (as a club) our younger players in recent seasons. Getting away and playing regular football for 3 or 4 seasons, even at a lower level, certainly seems to have done the likes of Turner and McDonald a lot of good.
I guess the trouble is we've just not had a team of 7 or 8 solid older pros into which we can sprinkle a few raw talents to go and learn their trade, but it does depress me that we've got people writing someone like Moots off completely after less than 30 games in a foreign country.
Moo2's record this season league P9 W1 D3 L5 Cup P3 W1 D1 L1
I seem to remember last year he was present when we were playing our best football. To single him out as being unable to defend is laughable, none of the fifteen or so players we've tried in defence have looked remotely like stopping us conceding - a product of incorrect defensive tactics not poor players, I'm sure.
Regardless of our position and results the other product of the season is our football is absolutely dire even when we gring out a result (Reading apart). At least with Moo2 on the pitch, there are moves which we can enthuse over.
[cite]Posted By: Addickson's God[/cite]Moo2's record this season league P9 W1 D3 L5 Cup P3 W1 D1 L1
I seem to remember last year he was present when we were playing our best football. To single him out as being unable to defend is laughable, none of the fifteen or so players we've tried in defence have looked remotely like stopping us conceding - a product of incorrect defensive tactics not poor players, I'm sure.
Regardless of our position and results the other product of the season is our football is absolutely dire even when we gring out a result (Reading apart). At least with Moo2 on the pitch, there are moves which we can enthuse over.
No-one is saying he is not a good footballer, he obviously has footballing talent, the question is whether he is cut out for life as a CCC full-back and the evidence suggests he is not. CCC defending is about getting your body in the way and meeting the physical challenges head-on and those are not things he possesses. I don't blame him for that, I blame the Bullshitter Extraordinaire who brought him to the club.
IMHO there is little doubt that Moo2 is a talented footballer. You don`t play for and captain the French under 21 side without being a technically good footballer. Since the lad has been at Charlton he has been injured and played in a consistently poor side which has changed more or less on a weekly basis and under two managers. He is young and even under ideal circumstances I think it would have taken him a little time to settle. He has had his confidence knocked and perhaps needs what at the moment we cannot give him in time to get back that confidence. I suspect he will want out at the earliest opportunity which I think is a pity because I agree with golfie that in a few years and unfortunately at another club this guy will come good. For what its worth I think if we could keep him for next season he would have that chance to rebuild his game against lesser opposition. It going to be our loss I think.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Bottom line on Mouataokil - If he was any good we would not have to bring in 34 barely fit year old loanees to cover his arse. That tells you all you need to know about him.
You're making the same mistake everyone else did over Dickson. Trusting the managements judgement. I said it then and I"ll say it again. What reason do you have to trust Pardew or Parkinson when we are sat bottom of the table, 10 points clear of safety?
I think he could be a good player but only in a confident team which dominates possession. Next year he MAY be ok. So, we either play him and get him ready for next season or we try to sell him...in which case we need to get a permanent right back from somewhere. Have we got anyone in the youth team? Probably not the answer but it may have to be.
Regarding his attitude....in the good old days we used to look into things like that before spending our money. Ok there were exceptions even then but most of time we used to get it right.
[cite]Posted By: Simonsen[/cite]Regarding his attitude....in the good old days we used to look into things like that before spending our money. Ok there were exceptions even then but most of time we used to get it right.
Think this is where we've got it most wrong with our transfer policy over the last 3 to 4 seasons and no coincidence it's we've fallen from grace over that period. Even Curbs lost sight of this with a lot of his later signings (Ambrose & M Bent the most obvious ones).
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Bottom line on Mouataokil - If he was any good we would not have to bring in 34 barely fit year old loanees to cover his arse. That tells you all you need to know about him.
You're making the same mistake everyone else did over Dickson. Trusting the managements judgement. I said it then and I"ll say it again. What reason do you have to trust Pardew or Parkinson when we are sat bottom of the table, 10 points clear of safety?
Were they right about Dickson? Were they feck.
Pardew and Parkison are most definitely not Shankly and Revie but that still does not mean that Mouataokil knows how to defend in the English CCC.
He is just not an "instinctive" defender, look how often he gets caught out ball watching rather than tracking HIS man - mind you, to be fair, he's not the only one of our 20 defenders we have used this year to be guilty of that.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Bottom line on Mouataokil - If he was any good we would not have to bring in 34 barely fit year old loanees to cover his arse. That tells you all you need to know about him.
You're making the same mistake everyone else did over Dickson. Trusting the managements judgement. I said it then and I"ll say it again. What reason do you have to trust Pardew or Parkinson when we are sat bottom of the table, 10 points clear of safety?
Were they right about Dickson? Were they feck.
Pardew and Parkison are most definitely not Shankly and Revie but that still does not mean that Mouataokil knows how to defend in the English CCC.
He is just not an "instinctive" defender, look how often he gets caught out ball watching rather than tracking HIS man - mind you, to be fair, he's not the only one of our 20 defenders we have used this year to be guilty of that.
Neither was Luke Young the first few years. In fact, he was one of the worst defending right-backs I've ever seen. But the experience certainly helped him out. A lot. Moots has 100% more to offer going forward than Young, too. Has the potential to be a very good player if someone invested time and faith into him instead of getting other teams players fit. Shame we have completely inept management.
he may not be the best at defending but is it not down to the coaches to point his out and help him in that situation, this doesn't seem to of happened
I too remember his first game in Charlton colours he had a blinder, strong in the tackle and did not let anybody past. I said to my mate after the game that Moots would 100% be playing in the premiership within two years with or without Charlton.
I could not of been more wrong....I will get my coat!
CommentAuthorOrmiston Addick CommentTime3 hours ago quote# 63
Posted By: cfgs
err Moots was got injured pretty early in that Stoke game
No he wasn't, he got injured after 56 minutes and taken off immediately.
In the time he was on the pitch Liam Lawrence, a decent but not outstanding winger, beat him on the outside for fun on plenty of occasions and we were very lucky to be 1-0 up.
Is that the sam L Lawrence who was statiscally the best midfielder in the league that season???e
Lawrence is a decent winger and had a big effect on Stoke's season but he is certainly not John Barnes or Cristiano Ronaldo and the way he gave Yassin the runaround that day (despite playing on the left rather than his favoured right) made me seriously concerned as to whether Yassin could hack it in English football as a defender.
Call me old-fashioned but as far as I am concerned your full-backs first job is to stop the opposition wide player from getting in the game, block out any crosses and to do whatever it takes to stop him getting past you on the outside.
Anyone wanting to see how this should be done should go back and watch John Humphrey play in the late 80's, nobody ever gave him the runaround....apart from Barnes but he was a bit special.
From what I've seen of Moo2, he brings more to the team from an attacking perspective than his defensive frailties detract from the team. Attack is, after all, the best form of defence. The defence has been so poor this year because we spend so little time in the opposing third. The defence is therefore under almost constant pressure. We need someone like Moo2 to push us up the pitch and give the opposition something to think about if they commit too many players forward. There is no doubt he needs to work on his defending, but that applies to the whole defence this season. I think he is a special player who's been treated very poorly and is therefore short on confidence.
I'm sorry but stating that Moota didn't stand up to LL Cool Stoke is a really bad reference point. He had an excellent season in the prem for Sunderland, where I must admit he missed a fair few chances but a lot of those chances were created by his sheer hard work. For a young player to be run ragged by Liam Lawrence last season, who was the champ MVP, is no different to countless battle hardened champ defenders.
Mouts is positionally neglectful at times. Having said that compared to Youga the boy tries to get back and close down like a genius. Mouta also trys to tuck in with his center backs when he is in position, something Youga and Halford had absolutely no understanding of; this has led to some mistakes in the box by Mouta.
What I don't appreciate about fans saying he's a terrible defender is the fact in all the games I've seen him he trys to close down wingers with vigour when in place. Yes it'd be nice to have a Bowen or Powell who had defensive and offensive skills in equal measure but no defenders we've had under Pardew and Parky had that.
Cranie was positionally alright but so fearful of his pace deficencies he'd never go tight on opposing wingers meaning crosses came in time after time; let alone his multiple glaring errors at full back. Halford couldn't tuck in and used to fall over time after time before getting a tackle in even when he was trying to get into position. For me both these players resulted in many more goals scored against us because of what they didn't do whilst Mouta was always brave enough to try; a character trait so totally lacking in our team.
As for his positives they're so bloody obvious. At Birmingham both goals were created by his game breaking runs and astute passing, something Bouazza could have observed as he benefited most. Sam and Mouta combine excellently as Sam has improved his defensive support play no end in the champ. Whereas Ambrose provides no cover whatsoever to the full back behind him. But what happens as soon as Mouta and Sam lose a match? They're dropped whilst Ambrose was given every chance whilst being defensively calamitous; not what you need when you're on a losing run.
I'd love it if we had a great right full back who solidified the backline and prompted and probed. But the fact is Mouta and Sam are by far the best combination on the right handside this club has. The space Sam get's from Mouta mear threat means he actually goes on the outside occasionally, and he's also a great pivot for Mouta to overlap on. Whereas Mouta makes mistakes, Youga is just a mistake. When Youga played earlier in the season every match a goal came down his channel whilst he ambled back after being out of position.
Yes with Mouta cavalier we need a reliable left back but the fact the bosses are willing to keep giving Youga chances is crazy. If a player doesn't make a directly attributable error but is consistently absent or neglectful to the basics, that's worse as it always leads to more goals let in. If Mouta is not trying now then he should not be in the team. Having said that he tried a hell of a lot more than those that were favoured in front of him, and was less damaging than Youga's constant absences.
Moo2 also contributed to our equaliser at Plymouth in November - great run and cross, knocked out for the corner.
Bailey took and Youga crashed home a strong header.
Right in front of me.
The very next week at Brum, we score 2 goals away directly as a result of Moo2's lightning counter-attacking.
That's 3 away goals in 2 tricky consecutive away games inspired by Moo2.
As many have said, Moo2's strength isn't primarily defensively.
But the way he gets forward, instantly turning defence into attack, is a threat that most teams in this League can't counter.
Are we missing a trick here? - Moo2 turns our defensive tactics into a potent chance creating threat, other teams don't handle it easily.
So if he plays, play to his strengths - allow him to get forward and delegate a midfielder to drop back and cover when he thunders forward.
Now where's that Obituary 'Common-sense' thread ......
[cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]I'd love it if we had a great right full back who solidified the backline and prompted and probed. But the fact is Mouta and Sam are by far the best combination on the right handside this club has. The space Sam get's from Mouta mear threat means he actually goes on the outside occasionally, and he's also a great pivot for Mouta to overlap on.
I agree and his style of play takes pressure off our defence. If we got the rest of the team right we'd benefit so much from him in the team.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]
Are we missing a trick here? - Moo2 turns our defensive tactics into a potent chance creating threat, other teams don't handle it easily.
So if he plays, play to his strengths - allow him to get forward and delegate a midfielder to drop back and cover when he thunders forward.
Well we're certainly setting ourselves up to counter attack away from home and Moots would definitely flourish in that sort of system. As for covering him, that's where Semedo is a miss imo and is what he was doing so well early last season only to fall foul of Pardew's now infamous tendancy to value reputation over form and be dropped as soon as Holland was fit despite being amoungst our best players. If we'd only been a bit more patient with our team selection we might have a nice settled side playingto a clear style that suits them by now. It's not rocket science is it really?
[cite]Posted By: ColinTat[/cite]I'm sorry but stating that Moota didn't stand up to LL Cool Stoke is a really bad reference point. He had an excellent season in the prem for Sunderland, where I must admit he missed a fair few chances but a lot of those chances were created by his sheer hard work. For a young player to be run ragged by Liam Lawrence last season, who was the champ MVP, is no different to countless battle hardened champ defenders.
Mouts is positionally neglectful at times. Having said that compared to Youga the boy tries to get back and close down like a genius. Mouta also trys to tuck in with his center backs when he is in position, something Youga and Halford had absolutely no understanding of; this has led to some mistakes in the box by Mouta.
What I don't appreciate about fans saying he's a terrible defender is the fact in all the games I've seen him he trys to close down wingers with vigour when in place. Yes it'd be nice to have a Bowen or Powell who had defensive and offensive skills in equal measure but no defenders we've had under Pardew and Parky had that.
Cranie was positionally alright but so fearful of his pace deficencies he'd never go tight on opposing wingers meaning crosses came in time after time; let alone his multiple glaring errors at full back. Halford couldn't tuck in and used to fall over time after time before getting a tackle in even when he was trying to get into position. For me both these players resulted in many more goals scored against us because of what they didn't do whilst Mouta was always brave enough to try; a character trait so totally lacking in our team.
As for his positives they're so bloody obvious. At Birmingham both goals were created by his game breaking runs and astute passing, something Bouazza could have observed as he benefited most. Sam and Mouta combine excellently as Sam has improved his defensive support play no end in the champ. Whereas Ambrose provides no cover whatsoever to the full back behind him. But what happens as soon as Mouta and Sam lose a match? They're dropped whilst Ambrose was given every chance whilst being defensively calamitous; not what you need when you're on a losing run.
I'd love it if we had a great right full back who solidified the backline and prompted and probed. But the fact is Mouta and Sam are by far the best combination on the right handside this club has. The space Sam get's from Mouta mear threat means he actually goes on the outside occasionally, and he's also a great pivot for Mouta to overlap on. Whereas Mouta makes mistakes, Youga is just a mistake. When Youga played earlier in the season every match a goal came down his channel whilst he ambled back after being out of position.
Yes with Mouta cavalier we need a reliable left back but the fact the bosses are willing to keep giving Youga chances is crazy. If a player doesn't make a directly attributable error but is consistently absent or neglectful to the basics, that's worse as it always leads to more goals let in. If Mouta is not trying now then he should not be in the team. Having said that he tried a hell of a lot more than those that were favoured in front of him, and was less damaging than Youga's constant absences.
I don't know if sitting near the tunnel at the front gives a different perspective, but for me Moo2 in full flight is really quite something. He has a presence and a determination that shines out. Yes, it's raw and he gets out of position, but aren't these things that are taught and learnt ? Isn't coaching about improving and utilising the skills of a player. I would be really upset to see him go.
Comments
No he wasn't, he got injured after 56 minutes and taken off immediately.
In the time he was on the pitch Liam Lawrence, a decent but not outstanding winger, beat him on the outside for fun on plenty of occasions and we were very lucky to be 1-0 up.
Nice rhyming on Qu'ran. You could have got ham in there, too.
About 57 mins, if I remember.
It was 0-0, Moots had gone on a buccaneering run down the line, played a 1-2 and on receiving the ball cynically scythed down 20 yards out. Moots struggled off, Andy Reid took a delightful freekick that deflected handily off Fortune's arse - and we were in front.
Paddy McCarthorse then had his mare as Ricardo Fuller ran rings round him and we lost 2-1.
That's right Oggy, you've nailed it.
I was pondering this last night whilst watching Everton vs 'pool. Was thinking to myself, what a very good player Jagielka has become. He seems to have been around for ages and although he always looked decent at Sheff U you'd have thought he'd have got his chance of a big move a while ago if he was going to make it. It made me think if we've been far too quick to judge (as fans) and drop (as a club) our younger players in recent seasons. Getting away and playing regular football for 3 or 4 seasons, even at a lower level, certainly seems to have done the likes of Turner and McDonald a lot of good.
I guess the trouble is we've just not had a team of 7 or 8 solid older pros into which we can sprinkle a few raw talents to go and learn their trade, but it does depress me that we've got people writing someone like Moots off completely after less than 30 games in a foreign country.
I seem to remember last year he was present when we were playing our best football. To single him out as being unable to defend is laughable, none of the fifteen or so players we've tried in defence have looked remotely like stopping us conceding - a product of incorrect defensive tactics not poor players, I'm sure.
Regardless of our position and results the other product of the season is our football is absolutely dire even when we gring out a result (Reading apart). At least with Moo2 on the pitch, there are moves which we can enthuse over.
As an aside - that set me wondering who was the last one? I've even read a few voices on here claiming Andy Reid wasn't really that hot !
No-one is saying he is not a good footballer, he obviously has footballing talent, the question is whether he is cut out for life as a CCC full-back and the evidence suggests he is not. CCC defending is about getting your body in the way and meeting the physical challenges head-on and those are not things he possesses. I don't blame him for that, I blame the Bullshitter Extraordinaire who brought him to the club.
Good question Nige. Benty I guess.
You're making the same mistake everyone else did over Dickson. Trusting the managements judgement. I said it then and I"ll say it again. What reason do you have to trust Pardew or Parkinson when we are sat bottom of the table, 10 points clear of safety?
Were they right about Dickson? Were they feck.
Regarding his attitude....in the good old days we used to look into things like that before spending our money. Ok there were exceptions even then but most of time we used to get it right.
Think this is where we've got it most wrong with our transfer policy over the last 3 to 4 seasons and no coincidence it's we've fallen from grace over that period. Even Curbs lost sight of this with a lot of his later signings (Ambrose & M Bent the most obvious ones).
Pardew and Parkison are most definitely not Shankly and Revie but that still does not mean that Mouataokil knows how to defend in the English CCC.
He is just not an "instinctive" defender, look how often he gets caught out ball watching rather than tracking HIS man - mind you, to be fair, he's not the only one of our 20 defenders we have used this year to be guilty of that.
Neither was Luke Young the first few years. In fact, he was one of the worst defending right-backs I've ever seen. But the experience certainly helped him out. A lot. Moots has 100% more to offer going forward than Young, too. Has the potential to be a very good player if someone invested time and faith into him instead of getting other teams players fit. Shame we have completely inept management.
Chris Solly, already on a pro contract and has a squad number. Probably been unlucky not to make the bench for the FA Cup games.
I could not of been more wrong....I will get my coat!
Posted By: cfgs
err Moots was got injured pretty early in that Stoke game
No he wasn't, he got injured after 56 minutes and taken off immediately.
In the time he was on the pitch Liam Lawrence, a decent but not outstanding winger, beat him on the outside for fun on plenty of occasions and we were very lucky to be 1-0 up.
Is that the sam L Lawrence who was statiscally the best midfielder in the league that season???e
Official page's note
Stoke Mad's decision
And finally Actim's rating of him......Soooo "decent" wasn't he - he was the best in the league!
Call me old-fashioned but as far as I am concerned your full-backs first job is to stop the opposition wide player from getting in the game, block out any crosses and to do whatever it takes to stop him getting past you on the outside.
Anyone wanting to see how this should be done should go back and watch John Humphrey play in the late 80's, nobody ever gave him the runaround....apart from Barnes but he was a bit special.
There is no doubt he needs to work on his defending, but that applies to the whole defence this season. I think he is a special player who's been treated very poorly and is therefore short on confidence.
Mouts is positionally neglectful at times. Having said that compared to Youga the boy tries to get back and close down like a genius. Mouta also trys to tuck in with his center backs when he is in position, something Youga and Halford had absolutely no understanding of; this has led to some mistakes in the box by Mouta.
What I don't appreciate about fans saying he's a terrible defender is the fact in all the games I've seen him he trys to close down wingers with vigour when in place. Yes it'd be nice to have a Bowen or Powell who had defensive and offensive skills in equal measure but no defenders we've had under Pardew and Parky had that.
Cranie was positionally alright but so fearful of his pace deficencies he'd never go tight on opposing wingers meaning crosses came in time after time; let alone his multiple glaring errors at full back. Halford couldn't tuck in and used to fall over time after time before getting a tackle in even when he was trying to get into position. For me both these players resulted in many more goals scored against us because of what they didn't do whilst Mouta was always brave enough to try; a character trait so totally lacking in our team.
As for his positives they're so bloody obvious. At Birmingham both goals were created by his game breaking runs and astute passing, something Bouazza could have observed as he benefited most. Sam and Mouta combine excellently as Sam has improved his defensive support play no end in the champ. Whereas Ambrose provides no cover whatsoever to the full back behind him. But what happens as soon as Mouta and Sam lose a match? They're dropped whilst Ambrose was given every chance whilst being defensively calamitous; not what you need when you're on a losing run.
I'd love it if we had a great right full back who solidified the backline and prompted and probed. But the fact is Mouta and Sam are by far the best combination on the right handside this club has. The space Sam get's from Mouta mear threat means he actually goes on the outside occasionally, and he's also a great pivot for Mouta to overlap on. Whereas Mouta makes mistakes, Youga is just a mistake. When Youga played earlier in the season every match a goal came down his channel whilst he ambled back after being out of position.
Yes with Mouta cavalier we need a reliable left back but the fact the bosses are willing to keep giving Youga chances is crazy. If a player doesn't make a directly attributable error but is consistently absent or neglectful to the basics, that's worse as it always leads to more goals let in. If Mouta is not trying now then he should not be in the team. Having said that he tried a hell of a lot more than those that were favoured in front of him, and was less damaging than Youga's constant absences.
Bailey took and Youga crashed home a strong header.
Right in front of me.
The very next week at Brum, we score 2 goals away directly as a result of Moo2's lightning counter-attacking.
That's 3 away goals in 2 tricky consecutive away games inspired by Moo2.
As many have said, Moo2's strength isn't primarily defensively.
But the way he gets forward, instantly turning defence into attack, is a threat that most teams in this League can't counter.
Are we missing a trick here? - Moo2 turns our defensive tactics into a potent chance creating threat, other teams don't handle it easily.
So if he plays, play to his strengths - allow him to get forward and delegate a midfielder to drop back and cover when he thunders forward.
Now where's that Obituary 'Common-sense' thread ......
;o)
I agree and his style of play takes pressure off our defence. If we got the rest of the team right we'd benefit so much from him in the team.
Well we're certainly setting ourselves up to counter attack away from home and Moots would definitely flourish in that sort of system. As for covering him, that's where Semedo is a miss imo and is what he was doing so well early last season only to fall foul of Pardew's now infamous tendancy to value reputation over form and be dropped as soon as Holland was fit despite being amoungst our best players. If we'd only been a bit more patient with our team selection we might have a nice settled side playingto a clear style that suits them by now. It's not rocket science is it really?
well thought out and well put. i agree.
Elliott
Mouts---Semedo---Fortune---Hudson---Basey
Bailey
Jonjo
Sam
Burton----Dickson
p.s looks a bit disfigured due to lloyd having to short a name ;o)