Well said bing. Agee 100%. I ve a feeling you have probably seen more of our poor performances, than a lot of the people that are trying to defend him.
Arthur, how can you equate some people being a bit miffed at 'boring' football whilst being spoilt by premiership stability under Curbs with those who have watched months of abject shit which looks like getting us relegated without even a fight wanting someone with new ideas and a the balls to stand up and take responsibility for it?
for the zillionth time no one forced curbs out he refused to sign a new deal and so was let go before his last year was up - he decided to end his charlton career!
I hope the reason the petition was stickied woz because we want to help the board.Many ( i wont put percentages for fear of being told off ;-) believe we cannot sack him for financial reasons,so it is up to us the fans to persuade him.If you don't agree fair play I respect your opinion but this is mine and I for one am not embarrassed about it.
TK that is a fair point, perhaps someone should ask RM at CA - when PV was at CA he said perhaps comically that AC was part of a 20 year plan but perhaps didn't realise it, that was just after the Parker sale i think, something changed along the line somewhere. Of course this is old news though..
Sometimes the posts on here - yours and AFKA's sticky article today alone - make me wonder why I bother to post at all.
Because you guys say it all...what impresses is not just the passion but the ability to express that passion in a calm and reasoned way. That's a rare combination, believe me. The rest of us are just ranters in comparison.
Bing, to be fair, we weren't that bad against Sheffield Wednesday!
Agree with everything else you said though-I've been going for over 20 years and have never seen it so bad, in terms of performance nor league position. Like most on here, it breaks my heart to be wanting a manager out (although I'd still never sing it at a game) but he's had a season and a half to prove himself and his team now looks as disjointed and disorganised as it's ever been. What's especially annoying about it is that, when you look at the likes of Bristol City and Burnley, good organisation is the most important quality you need to do well in this league. And that has to come from the manager......
Les Not suggesting its the same situation, but as Charlton fans we are quick to throw our hands in the air and go into schoolyard sulks about how unfair it all is. Much of this dissatisfaction comes from inflated expectations. The comparison I made to Curbs was that many, many fans wanted us to play Brazilian style soccer whilst at the same time avoid being tonked by clubs much bigger and better than ours, whilst Curbs just quietly aimed for more realistic survival each year.
Now the same fans are calling for Pards' head because we are playing like a team thats being rebuilt and we are not creaming this division that many feel is 'below us'. Perhaps expectations are misplaced. Realistically though, we are a Championship club. Its a tight division We are a team being rebuilt, which doesnt happen in one season or even two, however much we would like that to be the case. There is a slim chance of a magic wand tranforming our performances on anything other than a short term basis. So therefore I think this is way too early to call for his head. Whoever takes over will also have to rebuild, which means another year or two of personnel changes and discomfort. We need to accept it and have more patience than a 9 year old with a broken PS3 handset
[cite]Posted By: A-R-T-H-U-R[/cite]Les
Realistically though, we are a Championship club.
Agree with that point, but as for the rest Arthur, we have won 1 game in 9, 6 in 28 (1 in 5), and if you have seen the last 4 games, then we will not be a Championship club for much longer, in my view.
Saturday was the breaking point for me, and it appears many others. The end of a run of home games against one of the few teams below us, and they tonked us, all over the pitch.
why do you have to have a 'breaking point' at all?
cant you just sit tight and support the club through it all? yeah, its not that much fun at the moment to watch, but lots of clubs have had their dark times. why do you have to give up and have a tantrum when you reach the 'breaking point'? Can't you just calmly accept that things aren't too great, but that you're sure they'll pull through?
hate the way everyone is so negative. why shouldn't the players give up week in week out when the fans are doing so themselves.
But hey, he's now decided its time to play his best team, according to his latest David Brent interview.
So that's all right then. Sorted.
Except he doesn't seem to know what his best team is and after bringing in 32 players in under two years, he also says in the same interview that he's now looking to bring in "one or two more" loanees!
Must say, though, I've been surprised by the strength of the 'stick with him' brigade on here. If he does stay, let's hope you are all right.
Crisis, what crisis? as Jim Callaghan once said in a rather dfferent winter of discontent...
On Edit : just realised the Callaghan analogy is not a good one. A few weeks after that, the electorate kicked him out and we got...12 years of Maggie.
Arthur, what are you on when you say it's the same people who wanted Curbs out, who want rid of Pardew? Get a grip and read through past posts before you some up with such utter cobblers.
This is in no way the same as the Curbs situation, even the Dowie/Reed debacles. The sheer weight of opinion, along with the reaction we're seeing of many of our so-called 'elite' supporters speaks volumes. I take no pleasure in saying I want Pardew out. Going by the figures quoted by Len/Wyn then in terms of a business decision it's a non-starter anyway but from a purely football perspective, like many others, I really cannot see any other option now.
For the record, I was very much not in the Curbs out camp.
Well, he says £2.5m to get rid of Mr Pardew and another £2m to compensate Parkinson and to bring in support staff for the new manager.
And he then says : ''I am suspicious of the latter figure which wouldn't apply at all if we had an internal caretaker appointment which could be made permanent if it worked out. Nor would it apply if Chris Powell came in as manager with Keith Peacock as mentor and Kinsella staying in his current role.''
Even so, as you imply Len, these are scary figures. If that is the true cost, I might consider withdrawing my name from the 'trust the board' petition as it was asking for trouble to shackle themselves to such a ridiculously expensive deal in the first place. How much did it cost Spurs to sack Ramos and staff? A similar amount in all probability - and we are not Spurs.
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]why do you have to have a 'breaking point' at all?
cant you just sit tight and support the club through it all? yeah, its not that much fun at the moment to watch, but lots of clubs have had their dark times. why do you have to give up and have a tantrum when you reach the 'breaking point'? Can't you just calmly accept that things aren't too great, but that you're sure they'll pull through?
hate the way everyone is so negative. why shouldn't the players give up week in week out when the fans are doing so themselves.
I agree that setting a breaking point in advance is not the way but for me the breaking point has been reached. I didn't set a deadline or league position but Barnsley was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I am negative at the moment but I've not given up. There have been worse times but that doesn't make this time any easier to take. It is not helped that many of us allowed ourselves a little dream that with the Zebeel money things would change completely. Maybe we are still coming down from that but the table doesn't lie.
I'm not sure that we will pull through even though I hope that we can. It's down to the players to start playing better and the manager to start managing better.
The "play the best team" statement might just mean "play to our strengths not theirs" and if so we may have a chance. The players may know what they are expected to do and who they are playing with. It may take time for them to settle but that will only happen if Pardew shows some consistency in team selection and pattern of play. How can the fans stick with the team when the manager won't?
I hate being negative about my club and I hate hearing/reading people putting it down in anyway but sometimes you have to just accept the criticism, harsh and badly given, for what it is and get on with it.
some of them have nla, because some of the fans have - now "90%" to quote nss have given up, i'm sure those that were left will soon reach 'breaking point' themselves.
you all moan about the dark 3rd division times that you all went through. christ, its a wonder you survived it if this is the worst you've had it. 27k seater stadium, a dabble for a number of years in the premiership, loadsa stuff you should be grateful for. I can't believe people can give in so easily.
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]some of them have nla, because some of the fans have - now "90%" to quote nss have given up, i'm sure those that were left will soon reach 'breaking point' themselves.
you all moan about the dark 3rd division times that you all went through. christ, its a wonder you survived it if this is the worst you've had it. 27k seater stadium, a dabble for a number of years in the premiership, loadsa stuff you should be grateful for. I can't believe people can give in so easily.
I don't think people are giving in Suzi, they (we) know what happened next last time after ...."the dark 3rd division times"....
Near liquidation of the club in 1984 and years of exile away from The Valley shortly afterwards.
The financial climate is far more hostile now to the extent that there will be no way back if the same thing happens again.
That is what us "miserable old gits" who've been through it before are worried about or at least this one is.....
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]why do you have to have a 'breaking point' at all?
cant you just sit tight and support the club through it all? yeah, its not that much fun at the moment to watch, but lots of clubs have had their dark times. why do you have to give up and have a tantrum when you reach the 'breaking point'? Can't you just calmly accept that things aren't too great, but that you're sure they'll pull through?
hate the way everyone is so negative. why shouldn't the players give up week in week out when the fans are doing so themselves.
Sorry Suzi, i disagree with you and i'll try and explain my reasons why.
Actively following a football club is not just a time-consuming pastime, it has equally become an expensive one. You have to have enjoyment in what you are devoting time and money to, and if you see things that you personally believe are harming the club, then your enjoyment starts to diminish. Football supporters are loyal consumers, but they are not blind sheep.
If we continue to decline as sharply as we currently are, ST sales will plummet next season, whether we scrape survival in this division or not. Lower sales will mean a smaller budget, and the liklihood of further job losses at the club. Our support base is extremely spread, we have no real 'hotbed' area of support like most other clubs, and if our long-term supporters start to withdraw in numbers we could easily end up a club with little true identity IMO.
As for the players, well they should not give up because they should have professional pride and they are also being financially rewarded handsomely in return for them.
If you think something is wrong, you have to right to state it. I can currently see no way back under this regime and i feel the longer the situation is delayed, the harder it will be for us to bounce back. If i just sat on my hands and let everything go on as it is without raising my concerns, then i would later regret it if i was proved right.
Transfer to another anology, would you continue to buy a bands records even when you stopped enjoying their music ?
As for being negative, i am normally portrayed as being a club defender / sympathiser so much i've been accused of being an employee before on here.
Suzzziiii things are differant these days. Peoples time/threshold have got alot smaller. We moan if the PC is slow when its actually only taking a few more seconds than it did before.
People moan more -- full stop.
I go to football to meet mates have a beer and hopefully be entertained. The pubs are going, the footie has been crap for 5 seasons. We all have other things we could do.
Sure i have seen worse ------- 3,000 at The valley when we played halifax on a rainy night, could have been a low -------- but we won and hales scored 3.
never thought i would see us beat the Goonershit----Liverpool-------Moan Utd----------win at wembley----------or have players wearing the 3 lions shirt---------but we did. Thing is we are such an awful long way away from those days. As for European tour ------------- dont ever see that happening now.
Im thankful for the few years of good times out of the 40 years-------------dont really mind 35 years of shit either----------------------but i will moan about Pards etc when i think we have the players to do better but not the manager.
I'm not trying to say that its fun at the moment, just that I dont see how getting rid of the manager that not too long ago you all sung out that he was 'super' (ok not all!) can help?
is that really the answer? can anyone else do any better? can the players not be held responsible at all? Is there really another option out there at the moment?
to take your analogy, there are plenty of bands that i've stopped buying their music if i don't like them, but i don't sit on a message board all day complaining about how bad it is.
Two points Suz,the players shouldn't give up because,that is their job and they are being paid I on the other hand am paying that is the difference,if you gave up in your job and I in mine we would expect to be sacked end of no argument.
Second point when a manager comes out with the statement I will now pick my best team,surely that's what he is paid to do each week pick his best bloody eleven players what has he been doing them all this season picking a weakened team to p**s us off.That statement on it's own deserves to get him the sack.The fact he hasn't been picking his best 11 in my eyes is gross-misconduct.
"to take your analogy, there are plenty of bands that i've stopped buying their music if i don't like them, but i don't sit on a message board all day complaining about how bad it is."
Ouch! You've got me there, Suzi.
But with a band you can at least play their old albums and remember when they were great and continue to enjoy them. Sitting at home on a Sat afternoon watching a video of Mendoca and the play-off final isn't quite the same, I fear...
can I just add, that I'm not saying you're wrong for reaching breaking point, but want you to understand that not everyone else has reached a limit, and no one on here, from either side needs to "get a grip".
[cite]Posted By: nigel w[/cite]"to take your analogy, there are plenty of bands that i've stopped buying their music if i don't like them, but i don't sit on a message board all day complaining about how bad it is."
Ouch! You've got me there, Suzi.
But with a band you can at least play their old albums and remember when they were great and continue to enjoy them. Sitting at home on a Sat afternoon watching a video of Mendoca and the play-off final isn't quite the same, I fear...
of course the players are responsible as well, but buy and large they are players that Pardew has signed.
£5.3m on three strikers at Championship level is a huge outlay, and what has the return been ? 17 goals in 110 games (i have not checked that stat).
What you are insinuating is that there is no point ever changing a manager, but that is a natural development in football.
BTW, there have been 79 managerial changes at the other 91 league clubs since we appointed Alan Pardew.
Comments
You've summed up my feelings and my disappointments.
None of us really thought it would come to this but the players are not playing, and the manager is not managing.
The slide will carry on until something changes, the pit will get deeper.
If you carry on doing the same things, you get the same results.
And all we are seeing ..... is more of the same.
Arthur, how can you equate some people being a bit miffed at 'boring' football whilst being spoilt by premiership stability under Curbs with those who have watched months of abject shit which looks like getting us relegated without even a fight wanting someone with new ideas and a the balls to stand up and take responsibility for it?
Sometimes the posts on here - yours and AFKA's sticky article today alone - make me wonder why I bother to post at all.
Because you guys say it all...what impresses is not just the passion but the ability to express that passion in a calm and reasoned way. That's a rare combination, believe me. The rest of us are just ranters in comparison.
All this must be getting to me.
Well said Nigel btw.
Agree with everything else you said though-I've been going for over 20 years and have never seen it so bad, in terms of performance nor league position. Like most on here, it breaks my heart to be wanting a manager out (although I'd still never sing it at a game) but he's had a season and a half to prove himself and his team now looks as disjointed and disorganised as it's ever been. What's especially annoying about it is that, when you look at the likes of Bristol City and Burnley, good organisation is the most important quality you need to do well in this league. And that has to come from the manager......
Not suggesting its the same situation, but as Charlton fans we are quick to throw our hands in the air and go into schoolyard sulks about how unfair it all is.
Much of this dissatisfaction comes from inflated expectations.
The comparison I made to Curbs was that many, many fans wanted us to play Brazilian style soccer whilst at the same time avoid being tonked by clubs much bigger and better than ours, whilst Curbs just quietly aimed for more realistic survival each year.
Now the same fans are calling for Pards' head because we are playing like a team thats being rebuilt and we are not creaming this division that many feel is 'below us'. Perhaps expectations are misplaced.
Realistically though, we are a Championship club.
Its a tight division
We are a team being rebuilt, which doesnt happen in one season or even two, however much we would like that to be the case.
There is a slim chance of a magic wand tranforming our performances on anything other than a short term basis.
So therefore I think this is way too early to call for his head. Whoever takes over will also have to rebuild, which means another year or two of personnel changes and discomfort.
We need to accept it and have more patience than a 9 year old with a broken PS3 handset
Agree with that point, but as for the rest Arthur, we have won 1 game in 9, 6 in 28 (1 in 5), and if you have seen the last 4 games, then we will not be a Championship club for much longer, in my view.
Saturday was the breaking point for me, and it appears many others. The end of a run of home games against one of the few teams below us, and they tonked us, all over the pitch.
Where will your breaking point realistically be ?
cant you just sit tight and support the club through it all? yeah, its not that much fun at the moment to watch, but lots of clubs have had their dark times. why do you have to give up and have a tantrum when you reach the 'breaking point'? Can't you just calmly accept that things aren't too great, but that you're sure they'll pull through?
hate the way everyone is so negative. why shouldn't the players give up week in week out when the fans are doing so themselves.
So that's all right then. Sorted.
Except he doesn't seem to know what his best team is and after bringing in 32 players in under two years, he also says in the same interview that he's now looking to bring in "one or two more" loanees!
Must say, though, I've been surprised by the strength of the 'stick with him' brigade on here. If he does stay, let's hope you are all right.
Crisis, what crisis? as Jim Callaghan once said in a rather dfferent winter of discontent...
On Edit : just realised the Callaghan analogy is not a good one. A few weeks after that, the electorate kicked him out and we got...12 years of Maggie.
That is more than 20% of our "friendly" debt so we cannot take this decision lightly.
As i said elsewhere if you were there saturday there are compelling footballing reasons to get rid but life is not that simple......
http://addickschampionshipdiary.blogspot.com/
scroll down
Arthur, what are you on when you say it's the same people who wanted Curbs out, who want rid of Pardew? Get a grip and read through past posts before you some up with such utter cobblers.
This is in no way the same as the Curbs situation, even the Dowie/Reed debacles. The sheer weight of opinion, along with the reaction we're seeing of many of our so-called 'elite' supporters speaks volumes. I take no pleasure in saying I want Pardew out. Going by the figures quoted by Len/Wyn then in terms of a business decision it's a non-starter anyway but from a purely football perspective, like many others, I really cannot see any other option now.
For the record, I was very much not in the Curbs out camp.
And he then says : ''I am suspicious of the latter figure which wouldn't apply at all if we had an internal caretaker appointment which could be made permanent if it worked out. Nor would it apply if Chris Powell came in as manager with Keith Peacock as mentor and Kinsella staying in his current role.''
Even so, as you imply Len, these are scary figures. If that is the true cost, I might consider withdrawing my name from the 'trust the board' petition as it was asking for trouble to shackle themselves to such a ridiculously expensive deal in the first place. How much did it cost Spurs to sack Ramos and staff? A similar amount in all probability - and we are not Spurs.
I agree that setting a breaking point in advance is not the way but for me the breaking point has been reached. I didn't set a deadline or league position but Barnsley was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I am negative at the moment but I've not given up. There have been worse times but that doesn't make this time any easier to take. It is not helped that many of us allowed ourselves a little dream that with the Zebeel money things would change completely. Maybe we are still coming down from that but the table doesn't lie.
I'm not sure that we will pull through even though I hope that we can. It's down to the players to start playing better and the manager to start managing better.
The "play the best team" statement might just mean "play to our strengths not theirs" and if so we may have a chance. The players may know what they are expected to do and who they are playing with. It may take time for them to settle but that will only happen if Pardew shows some consistency in team selection and pattern of play. How can the fans stick with the team when the manager won't?
I hate being negative about my club and I hate hearing/reading people putting it down in anyway but sometimes you have to just accept the criticism, harsh and badly given, for what it is and get on with it.
you all moan about the dark 3rd division times that you all went through. christ, its a wonder you survived it if this is the worst you've had it. 27k seater stadium, a dabble for a number of years in the premiership, loadsa stuff you should be grateful for. I can't believe people can give in so easily.
I don't think people are giving in Suzi, they (we) know what happened next last time after ...."the dark 3rd division times"....
Near liquidation of the club in 1984 and years of exile away from The Valley shortly afterwards.
The financial climate is far more hostile now to the extent that there will be no way back if the same thing happens again.
That is what us "miserable old gits" who've been through it before are worried about or at least this one is.....
Sorry Suzi, i disagree with you and i'll try and explain my reasons why.
Actively following a football club is not just a time-consuming pastime, it has equally become an expensive one. You have to have enjoyment in what you are devoting time and money to, and if you see things that you personally believe are harming the club, then your enjoyment starts to diminish. Football supporters are loyal consumers, but they are not blind sheep.
If we continue to decline as sharply as we currently are, ST sales will plummet next season, whether we scrape survival in this division or not. Lower sales will mean a smaller budget, and the liklihood of further job losses at the club. Our support base is extremely spread, we have no real 'hotbed' area of support like most other clubs, and if our long-term supporters start to withdraw in numbers we could easily end up a club with little true identity IMO.
As for the players, well they should not give up because they should have professional pride and they are also being financially rewarded handsomely in return for them.
If you think something is wrong, you have to right to state it. I can currently see no way back under this regime and i feel the longer the situation is delayed, the harder it will be for us to bounce back. If i just sat on my hands and let everything go on as it is without raising my concerns, then i would later regret it if i was proved right.
Transfer to another anology, would you continue to buy a bands records even when you stopped enjoying their music ?
As for being negative, i am normally portrayed as being a club defender / sympathiser so much i've been accused of being an employee before on here.
People moan more -- full stop.
I go to football to meet mates have a beer and hopefully be entertained. The pubs are going, the footie has been crap for 5 seasons. We all have other things we could do.
Sure i have seen worse ------- 3,000 at The valley when we played halifax on a rainy night, could have been a low -------- but we won and hales scored 3.
never thought i would see us beat the Goonershit----Liverpool-------Moan Utd----------win at wembley----------or have players wearing the 3 lions shirt---------but we did. Thing is we are such an awful long way away from those days. As for European tour ------------- dont ever see that happening now.
Im thankful for the few years of good times out of the 40 years-------------dont really mind 35 years of shit either----------------------but i will moan about Pards etc when i think we have the players to do better but not the manager.
is that really the answer? can anyone else do any better? can the players not be held responsible at all? Is there really another option out there at the moment?
to take your analogy, there are plenty of bands that i've stopped buying their music if i don't like them, but i don't sit on a message board all day complaining about how bad it is.
Second point when a manager comes out with the statement I will now pick my best team,surely that's what he is paid to do each week pick his best bloody eleven players what has he been doing them all this season picking a weakened team to p**s us off.That statement on it's own deserves to get him the sack.The fact he hasn't been picking his best 11 in my eyes is gross-misconduct.
Ouch! You've got me there, Suzi.
But with a band you can at least play their old albums and remember when they were great and continue to enjoy them. Sitting at home on a Sat afternoon watching a video of Mendoca and the play-off final isn't quite the same, I fear...
it is the same if you put it like that :-)
£5.3m on three strikers at Championship level is a huge outlay, and what has the return been ? 17 goals in 110 games (i have not checked that stat).
What you are insinuating is that there is no point ever changing a manager, but that is a natural development in football.
BTW, there have been 79 managerial changes at the other 91 league clubs since we appointed Alan Pardew.