I'm still pissed off that my 85 year old dad, who walks with a stick, had to march such a long way back to the station after the game. He's in better shape than most (for his age) but he was absolutely shattered by the time he made it round that detour. Elderly fans or those with mobility issues aren't going to provoke any trouble if they take the direct route so what's the point in treating them like that?
The Ransom Walk shortcut was specifically in mind for people like your dad, unfortunately on the day it wasn't communicated properly and those in charge at the alley were acting the prick anyway
Thanks for the info. At least I'll know for next time.
1 The club are to blame for not having enough police inside the ground.
2 The police told Charlton regards the security arrangements outside and we had no say in the matter.
3 If the spanners were kept in after the game hopefully things would have gone smoothly for Charlton fans exiting the ground and making their way home etc.
At the end of the day, it amazes me. In any other walk of life 98% of posters on this thread wouldn't put up with this shit. Because its football they do. Vote with your feet , if we play they Millwall next season don't bother to go. Even if the club put out a statement tomorrow saying this won't happen again, it will do and the fans will put up with it again. At the end of the day we are the only club in this country who hold back their own fans to accommodate the away fans. Total f@cking b@llocks.
It seems that the Police were aggressive towards the Charlton fans blocking them from their usual route home especially those on horseback….had they done that to Millwall it would have kicked off….Cowards….keep them in the ground
can you please point me to anywhere in that where it addresses the main thing that charlton fans are pissed off about - i.e that we are held back / re routed rather than them? - the nearest u get is asking if its new policy - absolutely pathetic - u should be making it abundantly clear that we are furious that this has happened again and there is no way we are putting up with it next season - talk about missing the point - absolute failure -and i respect people who give up their time for good causes etc etc but that gives me zero hope that cast will stop this happening again - u will roll over and have your bellies tickled and will allow the police to do the same to the club - a woeful attempt - i'm happy to help get the real point across if u need help
Ahead of kick-off at Crystal Palace, millwallfc.co.uk releases the following information to ensure Lions supporters' visit goes as smoothly as possible...
Post-match, Millwall fans will exit the stadium and will be held temporarily outside the away turnstiles to allow home fans to disperse from the local area. Updates will be provided via a PA system on a regular basis to ensure regular communication is provided.
Well, we all knew that would be the case but it's excellent to have that there in writing.
Perhaps @valleynick66 would like to explain if he still thinks "... with hindsight and having the opportunity to reflect, the decision by the police to not hold back Millwall could still be argued by the police to be reasonable.
There is some logic in trying to remove 3k quickly given the perceived risk of adverse reaction by them if kept waiting."
Maybe you are not reading what I wrote and instead assuming I’m saying something else?
To repeat I’m observing the police can argue their logic has some merit. That is all.
I’m not saying it’s right or that I support it but simply saying they can defend it. What they and the club can’t defend is its execution/implementation.
The comparison to Palace isn’t particularly relevant particularly as they likely get held back at many grounds.
The police logic may be the greater ‘localness’ to us and our relative lack of hooliganism means a direct comparison is not the whole story. That’s my speculation of how they could justify it.
I don’t really understand your dig. I’m forecasting the outcome of any review the club and police may make.
It is a dig. No apologies from me for that. And I am "digging" that you seek to present a 'reasonable' point of view on behalf of the police which is based on arguments already debunked here, thus potentially reducing the support from fans for those in the fanbase prepared to challenge "the authorities".
You wrote:
"There is some logic in trying to remove 3k quickly given the perceived risk of adverse reaction by them if kept waiting." That risk perception is only valid if there was a record of Millwall fans routinely smashing up other grounds simply after being held back. Nobody has presented such a record, least of all you, the general perception is that they are routinely held, as are fans of Leeds, Pompey, anyone else with any track record of chippiness. They are being held back at Palace tomorrow, albeit outside the stand.
You wrote:
I’m assuming in the absence of any reports to the contrary there were no noteworthy skirmishes between the 2 sets of fans excepting the Sam Bartram gate incursion. On that basis I’d guess the police can claim it was the right call. If Millwall were held back as is normal police practice there would not be any noteworthy skirmishes either, because it takes two to have a skirmish, all the Charlton fans would have gone. That is why holding back away fans is normal practice.
The worst thing for me about your post is that you suggest there is "safety merit" in their inane plan. You ignore the photos posted here showing the fans exiting the West, and the numerous reports of the frightening chaos in Harvey Gardens, and the professional assessment of these situations from a Lifer with relevant professional experience (@Fortune 82nd Minute). There is no "safety merit" in a plan which introduces potentially life-threatening crushes which would not happen on normal matchdays and therefore have not been planned for.
As I said. but you wish to ignore, I’m simply suggesting how the police can / could argue their decision. And I presume likely will should this matter ever get a formal review.
It’s not a completely silly idea from them without any merit whatsoever. Surely you can accept that even though none of us much like it and can counter the rationale. As I also said you need to separate poor execution / implementation from the plan / proposal.
If we take your view that the idea has no merit whatsoever then why did it get imposed? Are you suggesting it’s because the police are Millwall supporters and wanted to score a cheap win over us ?
What is your conclusion on how it came to be and was unable to be countered by the other parties on the relevant meeting/commitee if without any foundation at all ? - I assume the club and council contribute.
Again I’m not a fan of the decision but I can take a step back and see why/how they may have reached the conclusion they did.
Even if the outcome is a commitment that it won’t be repeated I’d not hold my breath it won’t be based on the fact it’s the second time now.
Of course lessons to be learned all around.
Of course I don't believe anything as inane as you write there. My best guess is that they imposed it because it is the most operationally convenient for them. Occam's razor, some might say. They also knew that they could do this at Charlton because they know we are relatively compliant as a fanbase. Do you think they would have dared do that for the West Ham-Millwall fixture at Upton Park?
My conclusion, since you ask is based on what I was told at the match by a fan with excellent contacts, which you've already read. The Club tabled various sensible scenarios all of which the police rejected. In the past, led by Mick Everett the club had managed to head off more draconian police solutions through adult discussions. On this occasion they were completely over-ruled and at a very late stage told this was how it's gonna be. I'm not sure but I think the suggestion is that there was a new face high up on the police side.
The only way to make sure that this doesn't happen again is to kick up a hell of a stink about it. I understand that a lot of people really don't fancy facing up to the police in any way, so the burden for kicking up a stink falls on those of us who are lucky enough to be educated, articulate, without any entry on a police database, and able to compare practice from other relevant situations. Obviously even then it's best done via an organised group. But the police certainly don't need your help in pretending in advance that this was a 'safety -led' decision which produced the best possible outcome. Tell that to the fans at Lansdowne Mews whose kids now have lasting memories of the wrong kind, those stuck on the West staircases, or the chaos in Harvey Gardens. Do you know that there are otherwise mentally strong people who suffer from a fear of crowds in confined places? I'm married to one. And of course even for those who don't suffer that phobia, everyone over the age of 30 has one word at the back of their minds. Hillsborough. (and the 20 year aftermath of police cover-up and worse).
valleynick is talking shite but your response is not only condescending but that nonsense wrote to the club by the trust earlier is clearly lacking in the education and articulation skills that are actually needed here - it misses the main point fans are concerned about
can you please point me to anywhere in that where it addresses the main thing that charlton fans are pissed off about - i.e that we are held back / re routed rather than them? - the nearest u get is asking if its new policy - absolutely pathetic - u should be making it abundantly clear that we are furious that this has happened again and there is no way we are putting up with it next season - talk about missing the point - absolute failure -and i respect people who give up their time for good causes etc etc but that gives me zero hope that cast will stop this happening again - u will roll over and have your bellies tickled and will allow the police to do the same to the club - a woeful attempt - i'm happy to help get the real point across if u need help
I look forward to you getting your big balls out and telling the police and club what for.
can you please point me to anywhere in that where it addresses the main thing that charlton fans are pissed off about - i.e that we are held back / re routed rather than them? - the nearest u get is asking if its new policy - absolutely pathetic - u should be making it abundantly clear that we are furious that this has happened again and there is no way we are putting up with it next season - talk about missing the point - absolute failure -and i respect people who give up their time for good causes etc etc but that gives me zero hope that cast will stop this happening again - u will roll over and have your bellies tickled and will allow the police to do the same to the club - a woeful attempt - i'm happy to help get the real point across if u need help
I look forward to you getting your big balls out and telling the police and club what for.
Honest to god…
i'd be happy to - do u not think that communication misses the main point? i.e why are we the only ground / fixture where this happens? where's the questioning, the request for explanation?
can you please point me to anywhere in that where it addresses the main thing that charlton fans are pissed off about - i.e that we are held back / re routed rather than them? - the nearest u get is asking if its new policy - absolutely pathetic - u should be making it abundantly clear that we are furious that this has happened again and there is no way we are putting up with it next season - talk about missing the point - absolute failure -and i respect people who give up their time for good causes etc etc but that gives me zero hope that cast will stop this happening again - u will roll over and have your bellies tickled and will allow the police to do the same to the club - a woeful attempt - i'm happy to help get the real point across if u need help
I look forward to you getting your big balls out and telling the police and club what for.
Honest to god…
i'd be happy to - do u not think that communication misses the main point? i.e why are we the only ground / fixture where this happens? where's the questioning, the request for explanation?
This bit?
Issues outside the stadium which we believe are matters for the police
No information as to why away fans were not held back – is it now
generally policy to clear the away fans quickly from the area? If so,
this should be clearly communicated
So presumably they're going to be asking the police those questions.
Comments
In any other walk of life 98% of posters on this thread wouldn't put up with this shit.
Because its football they do.
Vote with your feet , if we play they Millwall next season don't bother to go.
Even if the club put out a statement tomorrow saying this won't happen again, it will do and the fans will put up with it again.
At the end of the day we are the only club in this country who hold back their own fans to accommodate the away fans.
Total f@cking b@llocks.
Issues outside the stadium which we believe are matters for the police
So presumably they're going to be asking the police those questions.