I'm still pissed off that my 85 year old dad, who walks with a stick, had to march such a long way back to the station after the game. He's in better shape than most (for his age) but he was absolutely shattered by the time he made it round that detour. Elderly fans or those with mobility issues aren't going to provoke any trouble if they take the direct route so what's the point in treating them like that?
Don't bet against the scum attacking an 85 year old with a stick
Be good if it was a sword stick and he did a quick Zorro impression on them.
Ahead of kick-off at Crystal Palace, millwallfc.co.uk releases the following information to ensure Lions supporters' visit goes as smoothly as possible...
Post-match, Millwall fans will exit the stadium and will be held temporarily outside the away turnstiles to allow home fans to disperse from the local area. Updates will be provided via a PA system on a regular basis to ensure regular communication is provided.
Well, we all knew that would be the case but it's excellent to have that there in writing.
Perhaps @valleynick66 would like to explain if he still thinks "... with hindsight and having the opportunity to reflect, the decision by the police to not hold back Millwall could still be argued by the police to be reasonable.
There is some logic in trying to remove 3k quickly given the perceived risk of adverse reaction by them if kept waiting."
Maybe you are not reading what I wrote and instead assuming I’m saying something else?
To repeat I’m observing the police can argue their logic has some merit. That is all.
I’m not saying it’s right or that I support it but simply saying they can defend it. What they and the club can’t defend is its execution/implementation.
The comparison to Palace isn’t particularly relevant particularly as they likely get held back at many grounds.
The police logic may be the greater ‘localness’ to us and our relative lack of hooliganism means a direct comparison is not the whole story. That’s my speculation of how they could justify it.
I don’t really understand your dig. I’m forecasting the outcome of any review the club and police may make.
It is a dig. No apologies from me for that. And I am "digging" that you seek to present a 'reasonable' point of view on behalf of the police which is based on arguments already debunked here, thus potentially reducing the support from fans for those in the fanbase prepared to challenge "the authorities".
You wrote:
"There is some logic in trying to remove 3k quickly given the perceived risk of adverse reaction by them if kept waiting." That risk perception is only valid if there was a record of Millwall fans routinely smashing up other grounds simply after being held back. Nobody has presented such a record, least of all you, the general perception is that they are routinely held, as are fans of Leeds, Pompey, anyone else with any track record of chippiness. They are being held back at Palace tomorrow, albeit outside the stand.
You wrote:
I’m assuming in the absence of any reports to the contrary there were no noteworthy skirmishes between the 2 sets of fans excepting the Sam Bartram gate incursion. On that basis I’d guess the police can claim it was the right call. If Millwall were held back as is normal police practice there would not be any noteworthy skirmishes either, because it takes two to have a skirmish, all the Charlton fans would have gone. That is why holding back away fans is normal practice.
The worst thing for me about your post is that you suggest there is "safety merit" in their inane plan. You ignore the photos posted here showing the fans exiting the West, and the numerous reports of the frightening chaos in Harvey Gardens, and the professional assessment of these situations from a Lifer with relevant professional experience (@Fortune 82nd Minute). There is no "safety merit" in a plan which introduces potentially life-threatening crushes which would not happen on normal matchdays and therefore have not been planned for.
As I said. but you wish to ignore, I’m simply suggesting how the police can / could argue their decision. And I presume likely will should this matter ever get a formal review.
It’s not a completely silly idea from them without any merit whatsoever. Surely you can accept that even though none of us much like it and can counter the rationale. As I also said you need to separate poor execution / implementation from the plan / proposal.
If we take your view that the idea has no merit whatsoever then why did it get imposed? Are you suggesting it’s because the police are Millwall supporters and wanted to score a cheap win over us ?
What is your conclusion on how it came to be and was unable to be countered by the other parties on the relevant meeting/commitee if without any foundation at all ? - I assume the club and council contribute.
Again I’m not a fan of the decision but I can take a step back and see why/how they may have reached the conclusion they did.
Even if the outcome is a commitment that it won’t be repeated I’d not hold my breath it won’t be based on the fact it’s the second time now.
I'm still pissed off that my 85 year old dad, who walks with a stick, had to march such a long way back to the station after the game. He's in better shape than most (for his age) but he was absolutely shattered by the time he made it round that detour. Elderly fans or those with mobility issues aren't going to provoke any trouble if they take the direct route so what's the point in treating them like that?
Don't bet against the scum attacking an 85 year old with a stick
Be good if it was a sword stick and he did a quick Zorro impression on them
Just want to draw out one point from the comment in the CAST letter that highlighted about what was the ‘steward in green’ doing as I think that’s unfair.
He’s been the coordinating steward in the East for a few seasons now, he’s friendly, works bloody hard, always on at the stewards back to look interested when they aren’t etc. When a few years ago the club sold a box to Pompey’s lads who were similarly looking for a ruck he went way above and beyond putting himself in danger a steward really shouldn’t have to.
I went past there before the point that video started. At that point there were Millwall shouting at the fence and trying to climb over it (there was no Charlton engagement at that stage, there’s only really a couple of hundred people that use that exit). I could see the steward in green there frantically trying to coordinate, maybe radioing through for help.
I’m not really adding anything here. I just didn’t want something to go unchecked that insinuated he let down his colleagues etc based on a snapshot video that doesn’t cover the whole area / incident, as I suspect he once again probably went above and beyond.
As your post is obviously based on a post I made earlier (and one I'm slightly surprised to see attached verbatim to the Trust response) may I just make a couple of quick points in response. (And I will keep it quick - there is much I could add but it probably won't add a lot to what has already been said).
I have no doubt what you say about the supervisor is right. And yes, having regular, able staff is a huge plus for any stewarding operation. So fair play to him for what you highlight he has done in the past.
As you say, my observations are based admittedly on a short video clip that doesn't show the full picture. But from what I can see, the supervisor had two choices - take control of the situation (which in fairness he had no chance of doing faced by that mob) or get urgent assistance. If he had no radio, and he had to get to an emergency phone or find someone with a radio, then I understand why he went out of view in the clip. But in doing so, he has left those two young stewards to face the music and they could have taken a serious hiding.
Something has gone seriously wrong here between the supervisor and the control room. If the supervisor had no radio, why was he not provided with one by the club/his company (not sure if the stewarding is controlled in-house); if he had a radio, did he request assistance and if so, why didn't it come? And much more importantly - and this is far more important than what the supervisor may or may not have done - why did the safety officer and the gold controller in the control room not see what was happening?; and if they did, why on earth didn't they get urgent police /response team assistance to the area?
One final thing. In an earlier post you refer to the response teams as "bully boys". I'm not going to deny I've met over the years a few people who do like to throw their weight about. But the vast majority of guys I work with are decent guys who are just trying to do a difficult job and keep everyone safe. (In fact, if you don't have police in the ground their role is vital). Believe me when I say trying to deal with pissed up or coked up guys (in some cases both) is not easy and these response teams sometimes need to say more than please to get these peoples attention.
Right definitely my last post until we get a full response from the club.
Just want to draw out one point from the comment in the CAST letter that highlighted about what was the ‘steward in green’ doing as I think that’s unfair.
He’s been the coordinating steward in the East for a few seasons now, he’s friendly, works bloody hard, always on at the stewards back to look interested when they aren’t etc. When a few years ago the club sold a box to Pompey’s lads who were similarly looking for a ruck he went way above and beyond putting himself in danger a steward really shouldn’t have to.
I went past there before the point that video started. At that point there were Millwall shouting at the fence and trying to climb over it (there was no Charlton engagement at that stage, there’s only really a couple of hundred people that use that exit). I could see the steward in green there frantically trying to coordinate, maybe radioing through for help.
I’m not really adding anything here. I just didn’t want something to go unchecked that insinuated he let down his colleagues etc based on a snapshot video that doesn’t cover the whole area / incident, as I suspect he once again probably went above and beyond.
As your post is obviously based on a post I made earlier (and one I'm slightly surprised to see attached verbatim to the Trust response) may I just make a couple of quick points in response. (And I will keep it quick - there is much I could add but it probably won't add a lot to what has already been said).
I have no doubt what you say about the supervisor is right. And yes, having regular, able staff is a huge plus for any stewarding operation. So fair play to him for what you highlight he has done in the past.
As you say, my observations are based admittedly on a short video clip that doesn't show the full picture. But from what I can see, the supervisor had two choices - take control of the situation (which in fairness he had no chance of doing faced by that mob) or get urgent assistance. If he had no radio, and he had to get to an emergency phone or find someone with a radio, then I understand why he went out of view in the clip. But in doing so, he has left those two young stewards to face the music and they could have taken a serious hiding.
Something has gone seriously wrong here between the supervisor and the control room. If the supervisor had no radio, why was he not provided with one by the club/his company (not sure if the stewarding is controlled in-house); if he had a radio, did he request assistance and if so, why didn't it come? And much more importantly - and this is far more important than what the supervisor may or may not have done - why did the safety officer and the gold controller in the control room not see what was happening?; and if they did, why on earth didn't they get urgent police /response team assistance to the area?
One final thing. In an earlier post you refer to the response teams as "bully boys". I'm not going to deny I've met over the years a few people who do like to throw their weight about. But the vast majority of guys I work with are decent guys who are just trying to do a difficult job and keep everyone safe. (In fact, if you don't have police in the ground their role is vital). Believe me when I say trying to deal with pissed up or coked up guys (in some cases both) is not easy and these response teams sometimes need to say more than please to get these peoples attention.
Right definitely my last post until we get a full response from the club.
Lifted from your email to the club with CAST copied, with yours and another email referenced in the main body of the letter.
Just want to draw out one point from the comment in the CAST letter that highlighted about what was the ‘steward in green’ doing as I think that’s unfair.
He’s been the coordinating steward in the East for a few seasons now, he’s friendly, works bloody hard, always on at the stewards back to look interested when they aren’t etc. When a few years ago the club sold a box to Pompey’s lads who were similarly looking for a ruck he went way above and beyond putting himself in danger a steward really shouldn’t have to.
I went past there before the point that video started. At that point there were Millwall shouting at the fence and trying to climb over it (there was no Charlton engagement at that stage, there’s only really a couple of hundred people that use that exit). I could see the steward in green there frantically trying to coordinate, maybe radioing through for help.
I’m not really adding anything here. I just didn’t want something to go unchecked that insinuated he let down his colleagues etc based on a snapshot video that doesn’t cover the whole area / incident, as I suspect he once again probably went above and beyond.
Just wanted to say having wrote all that, watching the video again I can see the supervisor in green is different to the one I was referring to above who manages the stewards in the East. Apologies for confusing things.
@Fortune 82nd Minute I wasn’t looking to be critical of your input so apologies if you interpreted it as that. Just wasn’t sure of comments suggesting the supervisor had walked away leaving them to it when that may not have been the case. Having watched the YouTube vid again where people are being attacked on the stairs, you can see that supervisor in green still there in the bottom left corner next to the 0.55 potentially operating a phone box? (and probably crapping themselves).
Comments
be based on the fact it’s the second time now.
I have no doubt what you say about the supervisor is right. And yes, having regular, able staff is a huge plus for any stewarding operation. So fair play to him for what you highlight he has done in the past.
As you say, my observations are based admittedly on a short video clip that doesn't show the full picture. But from what I can see, the supervisor had two choices - take control of the situation (which in fairness he had no chance of doing faced by that mob) or get urgent assistance. If he had no radio, and he had to get to an emergency phone or find someone with a radio, then I understand why he went out of view in the clip. But in doing so, he has left those two young stewards to face the music and they could have taken a serious hiding.
Something has gone seriously wrong here between the supervisor and the control room. If the supervisor had no radio, why was he not provided with one by the club/his company (not sure if the stewarding is controlled in-house); if he had a radio, did he request assistance and if so, why didn't it come? And much more importantly - and this is far more important than what the supervisor may or may not have done - why did the safety officer and the gold controller in the control room not see what was happening?; and if they did, why on earth didn't they get urgent police /response team assistance to the area?
One final thing. In an earlier post you refer to the response teams as "bully boys". I'm not going to deny I've met over the years a few people who do like to throw their weight about. But the vast majority of guys I work with are decent guys who are just trying to do a difficult job and keep everyone safe. (In fact, if you don't have police in the ground their role is vital). Believe me when I say trying to deal with pissed up or coked up guys (in some cases both) is not easy and these response teams sometimes need to say more than please to get these peoples attention.
Right definitely my last post until we get a full response from the club.
@Fortune 82nd Minute I wasn’t looking to be critical of your input so apologies if you interpreted it as that. Just wasn’t sure of comments suggesting the supervisor had walked away leaving them to it when that may not have been the case. Having watched the YouTube vid again where people are being attacked on the stairs, you can see that supervisor in green still there in the bottom left corner next to the 0.55 potentially operating a phone box? (and probably crapping themselves).